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rdb posted:I don’t want to sound bootstraps and republican (I’m not) but you still can if your smart and willing to put up with a lot of bullshit. The basic issue that "bootstraps, my dear boy!" ignores (well, ok, one of them) is that moving several states away is not something everyone can do and a "decent factory job" is very much not widely available. If you got one and you were able to move, you were already ahead of where a lot of other people are, and not (always) in a "just change how you think about it" way.
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Feb 12, 2020 00:59
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rdb posted:Mine was in the 500s at one point from a combination of using credit cards to survive and unemployment. Fixing it required changing my mindset about what I needed to survive and what I was willing to do for work. It took a move several states away and a decent factory job to fix the work part of it. The move wasn’t easy either, at that point I had what I could fit in a laundry basket, bummed a ride and slept on the floor until things worked out. I'm about to have to do the bootstraps thing to an extent (got rid of almost everything I owned when I moved, moving out soon and in with a friend). No bed, no furniture aside from a dresser and a couple of end tables. I'm making close to $40k/year (gross, pre-tax), and don't feel comfortable getting an apartment on my own with my income (even if I did, the standard is your net income needs to be at least 3x the monthly rent to qualify - unless I live way out in the burbs, or in an absolute shithole, rent will be at least 1200/mo for a 1 bedroom apt here). I'll be glad when the housing bubble finally pops.
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Feb 12, 2020 01:22
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Krakkles posted:... and you get lucky. Yeah, the system is invested in keeping you where you are. Moving across town is hard enough for folks who are in a low-income or no-income situation, much less across the state or out of state.
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Feb 12, 2020 01:31
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Krakkles posted:... and you get lucky. Ehhh. I can get you or anybody a decent factory job. Unemployment here is 2%. The catch: you have to live in Indiana or Kentucky. Its probably night shift, and you will have a takt time to meet and need to bust rear end. Its also union. The move did cost nothing, I was able to reduce what I owned to fit in a laundry basket and bum a ride. A grayhound ticket would have done the same thing and cost about $50. The lucky part was having a floor to sleep on. Again, a huge part of how I did it is lowering my standards. Not saying that works for everyone, but you can’t say it’s impossible or pure luck.
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Feb 12, 2020 01:35
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What if you have a child? What if you have a disability? What if you have a record? What if you don't know a guy on an internet forum who can get you a decent factory job? What if you don't live in Indiana or Kentucky? What if you have (let's go for a combo here!) a sick child who requires care during the night? I'm not saying it's impossible, edit: or that it's "pure luck". I am saying that luck is absolutely a significant component. Yes, you have to be willing to work hard. Yes, if you're willing and able to make sacrifices, that can help. But you also need to have some measure of good fortune. Krakkles fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Feb 12, 2020 |
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Feb 12, 2020 01:37
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Look, if you just work super loving hard and devote yourself to your employer and maybe get lucky to be underpaid and therefore safe from immediate layoffs, ANYONE can keep their job for 3-5 years (if your employment matches the whims of the employer's bottom line)
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Feb 12, 2020 01:46
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rdb posted:I don’t want to sound bootstraps and republican (I’m not) but you still can if your smart and willing to put up with a lot of bullshit. The problem with putting up with a lot of bullshit to get what you want is that the more people willing to do the same is literally the mechanism of povertification. People live in poverty in part because enough people are willing to live in poverty. Not to knock being willing to put up with a lot of bullshit though. I did the same and still today live very frugally. Most of my income goes to raising my children in some form or another, the rest is for retirement. I’m on track to retire in eleven years. Keeping my shitbox Accord running all these years has been a major factor. I’ve been socking car payments into retirement funds for decades.
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Feb 12, 2020 01:51
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Ether Frenzy posted:Look, if you just work super loving hard and devote yourself to your employer and maybe get lucky to be underpaid and therefore safe from immediate layoffs, ANYONE can keep their job for 3-5 years (if your employment matches the whims of the employer's bottom line) I totally get the sentiment, but I’ve got 19 years at the same employer. They’ve given me raises as high as 12% but I am underpaid, and I am very dedicated. I’ve had 100hr weeks, but I’ve also had 20hr weeks. We’re an employee-owned company and I think that’s key.
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Feb 12, 2020 02:10
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trouser chili posted:I totally get the sentiment, but I’ve got 19 years at the same employer. They’ve given me raises as high as 12% but I am underpaid, and I am very dedicated. I’ve had 100hr weeks, but I’ve also had 20hr weeks. We’re an employee-owned company and I think that’s key. I've got just under 10 years at a company that has for the last 9 had the owner stand up at the holiday meetings and say that he values [several things that mean keeping people employed]. He didn't say it this year because they fired ~10% of the workforce in the middle of october. No notice given, no reason given, just a phone call in the middle of the week - frequently to people who were traveling/on site - you're no longer employed with the company. Send your phone and computer in, your amex has been cancelled. The company I work for is owned by a (probable billionaire), it's been well profitable for the last (nearly) 30 years, it's been basically the only game in the industry for 20, but if I had to guess, in the last couple of years they've been angling toward this - the final straw seems to have been that they spent a bunch on making a technology jump and they had to make up the bottom line by firing a bunch of hard-working, talented, career employees. They did so without even notifying direct supervisors, in many cases - my boss and I were searching in the company Slack instance to see who was let go by their account status - and the only statements since then have been "what's done is done, get over it". All this to say - even when profits are good, even if your friends own it, it's still very much up to the whims of others. Employee owned is probably generally good, but it's by no means immune to anything.
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Feb 12, 2020 02:37
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There is no such thing as a stable career in tyol 2020. Your employment is at will and at the behest of Number Go Up. HR best practice dictates no warning or reason given when firing to protect the company.
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Feb 12, 2020 02:50
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Yeah, I’m underpaid. My base salary is low for my skill set and the company couldn’t replace the value I provide with twice the salary. That’s kept me employed. Occasionally I’ve achieved massive promotions. I could grab another $30k a year fairly easy if I made the right jump, but I’d have to give up my ownership in the company. I value the stock I own around $2 million. The face value is actually much lower but it’s intentionally devalued by the company and paid a 35% dividend last year. It’s not paid less than 20% annually in the last 20 years. On top of the stock ownership I’ve also been getting 15-20% annual bonuses in the form of profit sharing dumped straight into a 403b retirement account. Also we have a pension.
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Feb 12, 2020 02:52
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Ether Frenzy posted:Look, if you just work super loving hard and devote yourself to your employer and maybe get lucky to be underpaid and therefore safe from immediate layoffs, ANYONE can keep their job for 3-5 years (if your employment matches the whims of the employer's bottom line) Thats accurate, and not “fair”, but its how the game is played. You can keep the lovely job long enough to get a car and find a better one at Alcoa or Toyota in my area. Alcoa does layoffs but pays better, toyota or thier suppliers just cut hours when the economy takes a poo poo. I have been on the receiving end of a layoff in 2018. It happens, I had enough saved/budgeted that it wasn’t an issue. How I felt about it doesn’t change the outcome or matter at all really. My oldest son had achondroplasia. He died from bacterial meningitis if your questioning my use of the word “had”. So yeah, I know what its like to find daycare for a child with needs. Its possible. The county offers subsidized child care if you need it. It used to be 24 hour but there wasn’t demand for it at night. Toyota provides it on site. Children also have two parents, ideally (not always the case I know) the other parent can contribute. If the other parent contributes nothing at all even in shithole indiana the government still provides assistance in the form of housing, food and subsidized care. Half the battle is knowing where to look. SSDI is also still a thing for those with a genuine disability and goes a lot farther in a low cost of living area than it would in California or South Florida. As far as a record goes, I have had employees that wore ankle bracelets. Others that were on the sex offender registry. A boss that got a felony dui on the way to work. Those were the obvious ones. I’m sure for every one that I knew about there were 10 that I did not. Manufacturing doesn’t really discriminate. I have made the offer of a place to sleep and a job to a few people. Three have taken me up on it so far and all have been successful enough to find their own place and not be in complete poverty. I do get it, luck is a factor, but so is willingness to change, learn and adapt. I feel bad for people with addictions or mental health issues, thats what seems to hold a lot of good people back. But if your willing to step outside your comfort zone and try you can (not will) be successful. Success/failure is not a guarantee either way regardless of the political or economic situation. But not trying to improve a bad situation is a guarantee of failure. Change is also long term and takes time. You need to recognize when your avoiding short term pain and learn to prioritize meeting long term needs. And yeah you gotta put up with a lot of bullshit. I don’t even think I notice it anymore. Sorry if that causes poverty, I would like to see it be different but I only get one vote. It sure as gently caress doesn’t go for the party that blames taxes.
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Feb 12, 2020 03:08
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just like the straight up cost of relocation can be a pretty strong barrier for a lot of folks it would be nice if we had a lower-friction job market from the employee side, but the reality is that there are significant costs to switching jobs even if you don't have to move, and those costs are amplified if you are barely making it as is I get that there needs to be willingness to change, learn, and adapt - but we aren't doing enough as a society to encourage and facilitate that process of changing, learning, and adapting
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Feb 12, 2020 03:43
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Yeah, you can hold two ideas in your mind at the same time. I was pretty poor in my early 20's, got off to a good start as a licensed electrician, 2008 ranked that job, got evicted, couldn't pay for gas to get to work etc. Thank god I still had my parents, so it wasn't like I was homeless (a huge privilege) so I slammed down on America's only real social panic button and joined the military, because I grew up in a city with world-class primary education, I got a job there that was both safe, and paid twice what slightly less demanding jobs paid, and has excellent job prospects in the civilian world. I was able to fight off crippling depression and alcoholism, they even helped me succeed in my career in numerous ways. After my experiences earlier I'm obsessively frugal, and now I have a credit score in the 800's, a house (well, a mortgage on one) and for the first time in my life bought a couple vehicles worth more than $2,000. That being said, I never forget that any one of those rungs on that ladder of dubious luck I ran up could've broken, I could've gotten ill, I could've dropped out of High School, had a kid young, my dad could've died a few years sooner, he could've been a piece of poo poo like the rest of his family. I just started volunteering my time building low-income houses to try and give back a little of my good luck. So, the TL;DR takeaways are: A) With hard work, and some luck, good things can happen to you. B) The current social safety net in this country is hosed, the way things should be is if everything goes wrong, you're ill, a single parent, and just lost your job, is you move into a safe, warm apartment, and you have to live frugally off the monthly check and food stamp card mailed to you each month, while you get back on your feet.
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Feb 12, 2020 03:47
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Beach Bum posted:I took the Fit to my buddy's shop to get it up on a lift for diagnosis of the loose steering. Figured it might be inner tie rod ends. Bummer. My Fit is also having steering(ish) related issues in that I'm pretty sure the passenger side CV joint is hosed. I'm in the process of buying a house so I'm just ignoring it and hoping it lasts 2 months/300 miles until I have a garage again. I also prefer Honda parts but I'll probably just get a $60 one off rock auto or w/e. As much as I love my Fit it's due for being demoted to beater status. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:just like the straight up cost of relocation can be a pretty strong barrier for a lot of folks Galler fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Feb 12, 2020 |
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Feb 12, 2020 04:33
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rdb posted:Thats accurate, and not “fair”, but its how the game is played. ...  The thing is ... it doesn't HAVE to be played that way. I mean, I agree - I only get one vote, and similarly, it doesn't go anywhere near even centrists, much less right wing shitheads. But, something I think carries more weight than you might think is recognition. By saying "... you ... can [be financially successful] if your smart and willing to put up with a lot of bullshit", while failing to mention that you also need circumstances to be exactly right (i.e., luck), it's furthering the distinctly right wing talking point - "If you haven't made it, you just haven't tried hard enough". I don't think you're wrong - you have to work hard, and you have to be willing to reshape whatever you can - but I do think luck merits far more mention, if for no other reason than to keep it in everyone's mind.
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Feb 12, 2020 06:54
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I left a comfort zone poo poo pay job after 13 years for my current manufacturing gig and I've never been happier. Except when a new dude keeps saying "retard" and my patience is thinning.
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Feb 12, 2020 11:06
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Ive got crippling mental health issues and cant move too far away from my parents or i might die, i fuckin wish i could relocate for a job but its not an option so i guess i'll be on the dole for the foreseeable future
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Feb 12, 2020 11:25
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Krakkles posted:I don't think you're wrong - you have to work hard, and you have to be willing to reshape whatever you can - but I do think luck merits far more mention, if for no other reason than to keep it in everyone's mind. I agree with you, luck is huge, and “luck” is also predetermined by socio-economic standing. Luck is what brought me into my career. If I hadn’t met the right guy at party and mentioned some knowledge I have, I wouldn’t have gotten a job in my industry. I was driving a tow-truck at the time and working in the catering business as well. It’s hard to move up from those positions, especially when you only hold a GED. It was the socio-economic standing of a family member that got me into the party.
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Feb 12, 2020 14:27
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My wife "lucked" into her job. Her best friend worked for a sister company of a commercial roofing company that needed somebody part time to help with office poo poo. She had been a stay at home mom for almost 6 years up to that point. Once they realized her potential and education she quickly moved up, and is now getting ready to take over the controller position when he retires next year and will get a huge raise. My last job doing resort security I got because of my brother, stayed there for 9 years. It's all who you know.
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Feb 12, 2020 15:28
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I lucked into my current job by means of a connection on these very forums.
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Feb 12, 2020 17:23
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Um....Am I a dumbass for considering a 1987 IROC-Z as a daily driver? Second owner, 5.7 fully loaded, T tops100k miles $12k 
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Feb 12, 2020 18:25
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Paint shaker with maracas
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Feb 12, 2020 18:29
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Sounds fun to me, but 12k would buy a lot of things that are fun, fast-ish, and RWD. Some quick googling suggests the price isn't totally out of line - maybe, depending on how good condition it's in - but unless you're particularly drawn to IROCs, I don't think it's the first thing I'd spend 12k on.
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Feb 12, 2020 18:44
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Luck is absolutely everything. I got extremely lucky with the circumstances surrounding my 'employment' and I have contributed absolutely nothing to my own success. Anyone could have done this, absolutely anyone, if fate had smiled on them instead of I. Since I grew up extremely poor you can see why I feel pretty strongly about 'lol eat the rich' because I know they didn't do poo poo that someone else couldn't have done in their place. Nobody is special, there is no ~great man~, it's all noise and chaos. Applebees Appetizer posted:Um....Am I a dumbass for considering a 1987 IROC-Z as a daily driver? If you like the way it drives then I'd say go for it. Isn't like its going to lose value, it's well passed its dip. Do it you coward.
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Feb 12, 2020 18:51
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trouser chili posted:Yeah, I’m underpaid. My base salary is low for my skill set and the company couldn’t replace the value I provide with twice the salary. That’s kept me employed. Occasionally I’ve achieved massive promotions. I could grab another $30k a year fairly easy if I made the right jump, but I’d have to give up my ownership in the company. I value the stock I own around $2 million. The face value is actually much lower but it’s intentionally devalued by the company and paid a 35% dividend last year. It’s not paid less than 20% annually in the last 20 years. On top of the stock ownership I’ve also been getting 15-20% annual bonuses in the form of profit sharing dumped straight into a 403b retirement account. Also we have a pension. Maybe it'd be better to say not that you're underpaid, but that a lot of your compensation is in secondary and future benefits rather than cash. I'm kind of the opposite. I make an okay salary for my skillset although it could be more, and the only non salary benefits I have are 50% premium coverage on health insurance and a 100% matching 401k, which I'm contributing to now but missed a couple decades on. I'm 31 years in to my career and I'm basically not planning to retire at this point unless something radically changes. I hope the next house I buy is my last and that I can pay it off before I can't afford to. I'm hardly secure, and one major catastrophe could bankrupt me. That said, I'm a lot better off than a lot of people. And I try to live below my means but don't always succeed.
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Feb 12, 2020 19:04
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I've basically accepted that I'm probably never going to own a house, and if I can get my daughter through college debt free, I've probably done about as much as I (financially) can for her - a drat sight more than my family did for me. I paid off my college debt at the ripe young age of 35, and a large component in being able to do so was defaulting on it for over a decade, then negotiating a substantially lower payoff amount. Retirement is unlikely for me, but I'm hoping that I can support my wife so she can retire. So,  I feel you. Keep fighting the good fight. Your daughter is lucky to have you, and you're making the best of the shithole society we live in.
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Feb 12, 2020 19:19
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Krakkles posted:Sounds fun to me, but 12k would buy a lot of things that are fun, fast-ish, and RWD. My dad had a 1988 5.7 IROC and I drove it all the time. I loved that car so it’s a nostalgic thing I guess. If it drives like the way I remember it would be fun as hell. And T tops.
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Feb 12, 2020 19:29
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Applebees Appetizer posted:Um....Am I a dumbass for considering a 1987 IROC-Z as a daily driver? BITCHIN. I'd get tired of feeding it gas though. LloydDobler posted:Maybe it'd be better to say not that you're underpaid, but that a lot of your compensation is in secondary and future benefits rather than cash. -ish. Yeah kinda. My total compensation is still low for the skill set. I can't keep my stock till I retire though, and I need eleven more years for that for full retirement. I could jump in eight though on early retirement. My plan is to turn the screws then. If they don't want to pay good annual compensation then I'll retire and jump to a new employer. If they are willing to pay well then I'll try and do another five years. Your five highest-earning years are used to calculate your pension, so it'll be worth it to stay if I got good gains.
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Feb 12, 2020 19:32
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Applebees Appetizer posted:My dad had a 1988 5.7 IROC and I drove it all the time. I loved that car so it’s a nostalgic thing I guess. If it drives like the way I remember it would be fun as hell. And T tops. KakerMix posted:Do it you coward.
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Feb 12, 2020 19:34
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trouser chili posted:BITCHIN. I'd get tired of feeding it gas though. I don't drive much anymore so that's not a big deal. Going to test drive it tomorrow, lol. The kid in me says YES YES YES but the adult in me says Not Practical  Would be cool to have something to take to car meets tho, you don't see many IROCs anymore. [e] cool story, I almost lost my license racing a Mustang in my dad's IROC once 
Applebees Appetizer fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Feb 12, 2020 |
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Feb 12, 2020 20:54
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I got my job because I made a good impression on the office manager at the other store I used to detail cars at when I was in school, and she has a good working relationship with my current boss. But I'm tired of it and have to rely on myself to find a new job now. 
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Feb 12, 2020 21:04
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Applebees Appetizer posted:I don't drive much anymore so that's not a big deal. I am the last person on earth to tell you to reconsider (hell I currently own 4 fire trucks) but having recently driver an IROC and a 5.0 which were absolutely my dream cars in the 90's they are definitely, lets say primitive. As long as you don't mind that....I would check the market and BAT a white one recently sold there but I didn't follow the auction. I don't see them going down more in value though so worst case if you get a good deal on it you can sell it on in the future...
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Feb 12, 2020 21:08
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Found an old pic of my dad's IROC.....Great memories with this thing and way too much power for a 17 year old 
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Feb 12, 2020 22:12
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IOwnCalculus posted:I lucked into my current job by means of a connection on these very forums. Same here
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Feb 12, 2020 23:10
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I’d probably make a ton of money if I didn’t spend so much time getting red texts.
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Feb 12, 2020 23:23
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Applebees Appetizer posted:I don't drive much anymore so that's not a big deal. Not practical? It's a hatchback!
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Feb 12, 2020 23:49
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I probably got assigned some unlucky people in here's luck. I went from working retail in Seattle to doubling my pay working at headquarters for the same company because I worked with the son of a higher up and asked him to put in a good word for me with his dad. The next day they offered me and now I'm in Silicon Valley. I wouldn't have been in that position if I hadn't saved up and moved to Seattle from Dallas on my own but that probably took luck too.
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Feb 13, 2020 00:12
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$20k of kitchen cabinets delivered today. First 2 things we unboxed were hosed up with manufacturing defects. I hope it was just bad odds and luck and the rest are okay, or there's going to be a serious lot of "gently caress Kraftmaid" here over the next few weeks.  Demo crew comes tomorrow to take out the remainder of the old kitchen and we'll be officially kitchenless.
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Feb 13, 2020 00:50
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Applebees Appetizer posted:Found an old pic of my dad's IROC.....Great memories with this thing and way too much power for a 17 year old Yeah, you should totally buy the IROC.
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Feb 13, 2020 02:13
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