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OwlFancier posted:Even if you just throw them at empty buildings you're probably still more likely to get a job out of it. Does it matter if the spin is credible? Do you really think the credibility of spin is remotely important in the world where DFCFADP? E: 58 years ago on February 12 1962– Six members of the Committee of 100 of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament in the U.K. are found guilty of a breach of the Official Secrets Act. Also, JFC watching Good Omens then Home is some emotional loving whiplash. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Feb 12, 2020 |
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Feb 12, 2020 23:35
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thespaceinvader posted:Does it matter if the spin is credible? I mean yes I think it does matter if spin is telling people something directly and transparently opposite to their perception of reality. It is very easy to say that more prison = less crime because most people do not ever go near a prison in their lives, and have no direct experience with the statistical realities of recidivism or whatever, their experience of reality is watching lovely TV shows about it, but a lot of people look for work and hate it, doubly so when it's filling out stupid internet forms.
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Feb 12, 2020 23:39
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OwlFancier posted:I mean yes I think it does matter if spin is telling people something directly and transparently opposite to their perception of reality. Which is why they won't acknowledge that the stupid internet forms are stupid, they will preach about government interference with businesses' hiring practices, and wealthy fuckstains who haven't had to apply for a new job in 20+ years without it just being a 'between pals just pass me your CV and I'll make sure you get the promotion' type deal will dutifully grumble about how Labour are going to institute enforced positive discrimination, make every business hire quotas of queer and trans people, etc etc etc. How can you believe that it remotely matters if spin is factual when Donald loving Trump is loving President of the UFSFA and Boris loving Johnson is Prime loving Minister of the loving United loving Kingdom of Great loving Britain and Northern loving Ireland?!
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Feb 12, 2020 23:48
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How did Trump get to become President of Faculty Admin as a university in South Africa?
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Feb 12, 2020 23:53
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PawParole posted:So George Galloway has launched his own party. Why is this event the one that made you think "I know almost nothing about this subject, but I think I NEED to"?
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Feb 12, 2020 23:55
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Guavanaut posted:How did Trump get to become President of Faculty Admin as a university in South Africa? Money, dear goon.
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Feb 12, 2020 23:57
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Because the alternative is just "lol nothing matters" and that doesn't make for worthwhile posting. Yes, they will try regardless, but the abiding basis of leftism through time and place is that speaking to people in ways which reflect their experience of the world is more compelling than not, and capitalism's eternal weakness is its inherent contradictions which require you to wrap up your perceptions in bullshit in order to have them make any semblance of sense. Yes, people who do not have any experience with job seeking will not care, but people who do not, and do not need, to work, have very little to gain from a party of labour anyway, do they? They are not our target. A great many people do have experience with job seeking because the tories are ensuring systemic underemployment and unemployment, and so I believe it is a good idea for labour to base their policy and messaging on things like that. Let them prattle about whatever they want, every chance we get we should say "How often have you had to look for work? How often does anyone bother to write back? How much of your life do you have to waste filling in stupid forms to have the computer tell you to gently caress off?" Reframe the question away from the stupid idiot blathering about "positive discrimination" or whatever other nonsense, and put it back into forms people live with, that they understand instinctively. Labour did not take that opportunity as often as it could have in the last election, in no small part because it was trying to (reasonably) balance the brexit problem. But I think that approach is going to be important in the future and I think that sort of policy is the sort of thing that's going to become more needed in future too. Or, I guess, lol nothing matters. But you don't need me to generate that thought for you. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Feb 13, 2020 |
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Feb 12, 2020 23:57
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tbf (to be fair) to PawParole, Brown DWAE (didn't win an election) but he also DLAV (didn't lose a VONC (vote of no confidence)) and was able tg (to get) some stuff passed. sorry, still reeling from mumsnet Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Feb 13, 2020 |
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Feb 13, 2020 00:00
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https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1227715122900144128?s=20 Anybody who unironically says "hard choices" needs to get in the loving sea. It always means "we're going gently caress the disadvantaged, with a sad face".
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Feb 13, 2020 00:01
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Ms Adequate posted:sorry, still reeling from mumsnet Not, I suspect, as much as they'd reel from you.
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Feb 13, 2020 00:02
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WhatEvil posted:https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1227715122900144128?s=20 https://twitter.com/LTRKG/status/1227720937488945153 If I wasn't a 19 year old international relations student tory, I'd vote for lisa nandy. Thanks lifelong labour voter luke.
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Feb 13, 2020 00:06
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Not, I suspect, as much as they'd reel from you. 
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Feb 13, 2020 00:09
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OwlFancier posted:Because the alternative is just "lol nothing matters" and that doesn't make for worthwhile posting. If there's a response to this that is remotel helpful, I'm not sure what it is. It's honestly getting harder and harder to avoid doomsaying at the moment, even with talking to a therapist every loving week.
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Feb 13, 2020 00:12
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I get the impulse to doompost, but part of why I am trying not to do it, as well as trying to suggest constructive alternatives is precisely because I don't want people to be miserable. If we're hosed we're hosed and being sad about it isn't going to unfuck us. I would sooner face oblivion deluded, or at best spiteful, than I would miserably. The human experience is finite and I do not want to fill mine with misery if I can avoid it, and I don't want other people to either. There is plenty in the world that will do it for you without doing it for yourself. If you can't avoid doing it then fair enough, but I'm going to disagree with you if you do 
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Feb 13, 2020 00:16
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Ms Adequate posted:sorry, still reeling from mumsnet
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Feb 13, 2020 00:17
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bessantj posted:Just caught up with the thread and without wanting to restart anything I enjoyed Saith going off on one. Though points deducted for not mentioning the 'treachery of the blue books.' Also the real historic problem for Wales and the whole of the UK, the loving liberals (Welsh liberals really hosed Wales over). Personally I was disappointed nothing was mentioned of the Welsh being so sick of Llewelyn's rule by the time Eddie First turned up that many surrendered immediately. bessantj posted:I'm really glad HS2 is going ahead. I'm not.
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Feb 13, 2020 00:20
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OwlFancier posted:I get the impulse to doompost, but part of why I am trying not to do it, as well as trying to suggest constructive alternatives is precisely because I don't want people to be miserable. If we're hosed we're hosed and being sad about it isn't going to unfuck us. I would sooner face oblivion deluded, or at best spiteful, than I would miserably. The human experience is finite and I do not want to fill mine with misery if I can avoid it, and I don't want other people to either. There is plenty in the world that will do it for you without doing it for yourself. I still do think there's merit in trying to figure out an answer to how to deal with post-truth journalism, though. If an electoral victory is possible, that's a hurdle that will have to be overcome somehow. It's not like it'll magically get better in the next 5 years.
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Feb 13, 2020 00:25
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Well, yes, but I strongly believe that a critical part of dealing with that is by... urgh... "interfacing with other forms of experienced truth" which I hate as a phrase but I can't think of a better way to put it. Like the point of the media is that it creates a second, fictional, set of experiences through which people perceive the world. The media is part of the world and it overlaps and can sometimes supercede it for people, particularly because it comes with a pre-formed narrative for you to follow. It's a story, it makes the whole world into this story and sometimes it even leaves out bits for you to fill in the gaps and make it feel like your story that you figured out yourself, aren't you a clever boy etc. But the media can't completely erase the things we actually experience, and it's stuff like that that brought I think nearly all of us here to leftism, because it rings true to the parts of our lives that are real. I don't think labour can win elections on media strategy alone, I agree that it needs to "reconnect" with its voters, but I think it needs to do that by focusing very heavily on unifying experiences of wrongess in the world, that are real and that they can and should do something about, and that directly attack the power of capital to keep people isolated and submerged in this nonsense narrative version of the world. And one thing that's definitely going to get more real over the next few years is the lovely loving job market.
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Feb 13, 2020 00:31
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https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1227722178986115073?s=19 NI sec to be sacked for actually doing his job - no one does that on BoJos watch
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Feb 13, 2020 00:46
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What I'm still missing the connection on, is how? How do you speak to the people who are inured in that world. Not theoretically, not what words you use or what concepts you need to put across, literally how? How do you physically or digitally put the message from your brain into theirs? How do you get enough access to their ears and/or eyes for long enough for them to actually question the nonsense narrative reality, and not immediately go back to believing it when they crack open the Sun or pop down the pub or watch the news?
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Feb 13, 2020 00:47
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thespaceinvader posted:What I'm still missing the connection on, is how? Well I think you've got to use their methods to a degree, at least right now, but when you go on the news (or make the news) you have to think about how you speak. Corbyn when he started didn't sound like a politician, he gave pretty straight answers to questions. But over time he started acting more and more like... well a politician. You can see it in the debates, when he tries to dodge questions or looks like he is, he gets booed. People shut up and even respect simple, direct answers, or at least answers that address things that actually matter. State your intent, expand if pressed further, make the person asking the questions go on the back foot. Corbyn, as much as I like him, wasn't that good at that, and more to the point it wasn't how the rest of the party did it, or if they did they were going against the likes of starmer et al who faffed about with wishy washy bollocks. I think it's what people like about trump. Yeah he sounds insane, but he doesn't sound like a politican, and what little he does articulate is simple. Foreigners bad, america great, democrats pissbabies. And the last one is even true! I also think it's what people like about sanders too, he's good at answering questions and controlling the flow of the conversation, much better than corbyn was. He sounds like he's winning, but I don't think corbyn has ever really argued with people he didn't respect, so he doesn't do that, he doesn't seek to dominate his opponent. I guess it's not something that comes with being an actually sensitive lefty. You need, ultimately, to sound like a daily mail article. Cos if you look at that poo poo (possibly through tinted glass) it's written like a children's book. It tells you what to feel, it spells everything out in very simple language, it's like a series of triggers for your brain to elicit emotional responses and it's all framed around stuff you maybe sort of care about, or which tangentially connects to stuff you care about, or is stuff you care about because it's part of the narrative you've been consuming. You can do that about actual good ideas too, most of us post that way quite a lot. But it's something that the political machine discourages, especailly on the lib/left, among the kind of nerd who ends up on the press team. You get time on the media as the opposition party, and yes it will be hostile, but you won't get anywhere by being defensive, you can use that coverage to get people's attention. Labour did it really well in 2017 and I think there's room to do it again, but I think in 2019 the tories did it a lot better, and labour did it a lot less, and labour rarely did it directly attacking the tories. They're going to have a lot of tory poo poo to attack over the next few years, and boris's blustering is gonna get real old real fast if labour can consistently reframe it as them, channeling the anger of the working people of the country at the inept government. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Feb 13, 2020 |
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Feb 13, 2020 00:59
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George Galloway forming a political party is an unprecedented even except for the other times he did it and failed miserably.
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Feb 13, 2020 01:01
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Random Integer posted:George Galloway forming a political party is an unprecedented even except for the other times he did it and failed miserably. He managed to kick out Oona King from Bethnal Green and Bow and his failure to replicate that success has nothing at all to do with him falling out with convicted electoral fraudster Lutfur Rahman.
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Feb 13, 2020 01:03
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George Galloway is the Andrew WK of politics.
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Feb 13, 2020 01:04
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What's Galloway's Take It Off?
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Feb 13, 2020 01:10
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Azza Bamboo posted:George Galloway is the Andrew WK of politics. Andrew WK knows exactly how ridiculous he is and plays up to it, Galloway is the polar opposite.
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Feb 13, 2020 01:11
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cat dot gif
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Feb 13, 2020 01:15
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Also - tiptoeing carefully around libel - some have compared Galloway to another well-known entertainer with a professional name in the format "Firstname followed by two capital letters", but I'm certain I don't know what they mean by that.
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Feb 13, 2020 01:16
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I turned the telly on to some BBC programmes about Universal Credit and the chimp from the Jobcentre asked "what would you do I'm her situation?" Replied with "there are people who clean toilets who are very happy" and then she smiled this horrendous smile and I wanted to die so turned it back off. loving monsters.
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Feb 13, 2020 01:17
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Also - tiptoeing carefully around libel - some have compared Galloway to another well-known entertainer with a professional name in the format "Firstname followed by two capital letters", but I'm certain I don't know what they mean by that.
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Feb 13, 2020 01:21
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bessantj posted:I'm really glad HS2 is going ahead. Last year I was part of some of the independent surveys for the Trust's and oppositions along the route north of Birmingham. HS2 is an ecological disaster. It is however now inevitable, and to me it seems likely most protection/mitigation law will be scrapped by Brexit, so it will be interesting to see the cost in the years to come.
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Feb 13, 2020 01:25
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forkboy84 posted:I turned the telly on to some BBC programmes about Universal Credit and the chimp from the Jobcentre asked "what would you do I'm her situation?" Replied with "there are people who clean toilets who are very happy" and then she smiled this horrendous smile and I wanted to die so turned it back off. I do not recommend turning on the telly if you can avoid it. Watch memes on youtube instead, it's basically perfected the visual entertainment media.
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Feb 13, 2020 01:25
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OwlFancier posted:I do not recommend turning on the telly if you can avoid it. Watch memes on youtube instead, it's basically perfected the visual entertainment media. 
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Feb 13, 2020 01:32
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Random Integer posted:George Galloway forming a political party is an unprecedented even except for the other times he did it and failed miserably.
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Feb 13, 2020 01:33
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That was Robert Kilroy-Silk, and it was a weird UKIP splinter that wanted to kill off the drug war before it was cool but also some weird kipper poo poo.
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Feb 13, 2020 01:35
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OwlFancier posted:I do not recommend turning on the telly if you can avoid it. Watch memes on youtube instead, it's basically perfected the visual entertainment media. I need to turn on the TV to get to play Yakuza 3 though
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Feb 13, 2020 01:36
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Did he ever figure out whether to share, or to shaft? (ms a I have already tallied your vote in advance tyvm)
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Feb 13, 2020 01:37
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I was probably thinking of the respect party, which now that I look it up had George Monbiot of all people behind it and a logo that looks like a shitposting gangtag. Weird.
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Feb 13, 2020 01:38
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Guavanaut posted:That was Robert Kilroy-Silk, and it was a weird UKIP splinter that wanted to kill off the drug war before it was cool but also some weird kipper poo poo. I swear I saw something recently where he was claiming to be the brains and balls behind ukip, until that bastard Nigel took all the glory
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Feb 13, 2020 01:41
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I'll add another vote for "shaft" then.
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Feb 13, 2020 01:42
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