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Randaconda posted:Hmm yes, the business, which has always been first and foremost about making money, doesn't count guys who made more than anybody else! Cool I'm looking forward to your essay about how Transformers movies are great, because something that makes money cannot be judged by any other standard.
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Feb 16, 2020 20:11
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Andrast posted:In that case Avengers: Endgame is the best movie of all time The art of filmmaking and wrestling are different, and how you judge them as "art" are different but a movie is a piece of art that is self contained. Being a pro wrestler is not just self contained in a wrestling match. Hogan was not a good wrestler, he wasn't horrible at his peak, and he could entertain the crowd in a match. But being a wrestler is about promos, charisma, and the overall package that goes beyond having a great match. Hogan was very good at the non match aspects of wrestling.
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Feb 16, 2020 20:12
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Randaconda posted:Hmm yes, the business, which has always been first and foremost about making money, doesn't count guys who made more than anybody else! hogan's not going to slip you a couple grand for defending him on message boards, friend
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Feb 16, 2020 20:13
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I thought Austin was a bigger draw than Hogan? I used to be a huge Hogan mark and was told a lot that Austin was the actual biggest star in WWF/E history.
NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Feb 16, 2020 |
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Feb 16, 2020 20:28
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MassRafTer posted:Hogan was very good at the non match aspects of wrestling. Besides giving shine to anyone else in the company, arguably the most important element for the long-term success of a company.
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Feb 16, 2020 20:32
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Andrast posted:In that case Avengers: Endgame is the best movie of all time wrestling as an art form has much more in common with the serial comic book blockbuster than serious film
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Feb 16, 2020 20:33
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Defiance Industries posted:Besides giving shine to anyone else in the company, arguably the most important element for the long-term success of a company. Not really. WWF was built on a series of unbeatable supermen, the NWA was built on Thesz dominating the belt for a decade and a half, AWA was built upon Gagne, etc. And if you want to bring in the long term success of a company you are talking about business and Hogan is the biggest long term draw in US wrestling history so I guess he is the best. NikkolasKing posted:I thought Austin was a bigger draw than Hogan? I used to be a huge Hogan mark and was told a lot that Austin was the actual biggest star in WWF/E history. At his peak Austin was a bigger draw, but his peak was 3 years while Hogan had a longer peak.
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Feb 16, 2020 20:47
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I think you can talk about the 'best' wrestlers in a way that doesn't begin and end with how much money they made, in the same way that not every conversation about the greatest films doesn't begin and end with "well, Shrek 2 made more money than any Hitchcock or Kubrick film so let's just nip this conversation in the bud before you embarrass yourself."
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Feb 16, 2020 21:02
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Defiance Industries posted:Besides giving shine to anyone else in the company, arguably the most important element for the long-term success of a company. Unfortunately people like Funk and Jericho who both achieved main event status and recognize the value of putting people over are the exception rather than the rule.
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Feb 16, 2020 21:10
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Just mindlessly looking at the amount of money that someone made is real dumb when evaluating how good a wrestler someone is, because it completely ignores the context that said wrestler operated under. Or in other words, the amount of money you draw is heavily dependent on how hot the business itself was under that time period. So it's entirely possible that a wrestler who drew OK money under a low point in the business objectively had better drawing ability than someone who drew more money under a boom period. Then we get into the weeds of who you had to work with and how well the booker did their job and so on and so forth.
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Feb 16, 2020 21:17
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Cerebral Bore posted:Just mindlessly looking at the amount of money that someone made is real dumb when evaluating how good a wrestler someone is, because it completely ignores the context that said wrestler operated under. Or in other words, the amount of money you draw is heavily dependent on how hot the business itself was under that time period. So it's entirely possible that a wrestler who drew OK money under a low point in the business objectively had better drawing ability than someone who drew more money under a boom period. Then we get into the weeds of who you had to work with and how well the booker did their job and so on and so forth. No one looks at it in raw dollar values, but how hot the business can't be an excuse. Steve Austin's rise happened at a time where the WWF was having to take on loans to deal with losses and he brought the company to its greatest point of success in history. If you want to say "Well WCW was hot" WCW got hot after the lowest point in US wrestling history. Londos was one of the greatest draws in the history of wrestling (maybe the greatest) during the Depression. Or look at Tanahashi. New Japan had to be sold twice within the span of a decade as things had gotten so bad. It took time but his star power built the company back to where they are now.
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Feb 16, 2020 21:23
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MassRafTer posted:Not really. WWF was built on a series of unbeatable supermen, the NWA was built on Thesz dominating the belt for a decade and a half, AWA was built upon Gagne, etc. NWA is running a studio show and everyone is completely baffled as to how they're still in business and actually putting out a decent product. AWA has been dead for 30 years. WWF went through its worst financial period ever once Hogan left. Hogan brought WCW its biggest business ever which lasted for a year and a half before his creative control bullshit scorched the earth and the company died 2 years later. Granted he was far from the only problem with WCW but if you seriously expect me to believe he wasn't at least one of the bigger ones then you're out of your goddamn mind.
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Feb 16, 2020 21:29
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Could Rey Mysterio Jr. count as a GOAT? The guy overcame all the odds to be a legend in this business and all over the world. And if we're talking influence I would imagine his success helped a lot of others who didn't have the traditional wrestling look get into the business.
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Feb 16, 2020 21:34
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The problem with Hogan and Gagne was not that they were dominant when they drew, that's good. The problem was when they stopped being able to draw well they kept wanting to be booked as dominant and welp
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Feb 16, 2020 21:38
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TriffTshngo posted:NWA is running a studio show and everyone is completely baffled as to how they're still in business and actually putting out a decent product. AWA has been dead for 30 years. WWF went through its worst financial period ever once Hogan left. Hogan brought WCW its biggest business ever which lasted for a year and a half before his creative control bullshit scorched the earth and the company died 2 years later. Granted he was far from the only problem with WCW but if you seriously expect me to believe he wasn't at least one of the bigger ones then you're out of your goddamn mind. The NWA died because a chain of criminal monopolies operating little fiefdoms couldn't exist in the era of cable TV, not because Lou Thesz didn't put people over on the way out. Thesz stepped down as perennial champion in the mid 60s! The AWA's hottest business period came with Hogan in the early 80s, after Gagne had retired as champion. Bringing either up as an example that Thesz or Gagne's hot runs somehow led to the present circumstances is silly. The AWA was a company that didn't have the resources to keep Hogan and had an owner with outdated ideas who couldn't rebuild after he left. They were facing a company with the power and money of the New York market and new, fresh production ideas. That's why they died. The WWF went into its spiral after a series of scandals completely tainted the brand, including Hogan. It wasn't because Hogan didn't put people over. He was already declining when he left. WCW was absolutely a case of a company that didn't create new stars and they believed the stars they had would be stars forever. But prior to Hulkamania wrestling was very much a business where one top star ran roughshod over various promotions. These promotions had long, successful histories and acting like "Well a company was very successful for 20, 30, or in some cases 40 years, but they eventually died so they were bad"
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Feb 16, 2020 21:41
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When people say "worker," they don't mean "wrestler's ability to draw money" so much as they mean "can this wrestler go in the ring?" All this Hogan talk is just pedantry.
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Feb 16, 2020 23:01
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WSAENOTSOCK posted:When people say "worker," they don't mean "wrestler's ability to draw money" so much as they mean "can this wrestler go in the ring?" He who draws the most money is the best worker 
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Feb 16, 2020 23:18
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shut the gently caress up al snow
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Feb 16, 2020 23:20
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Randaconda posted:He who draws the most money is the best worker There's only one man in wrestling who makes it rain. 
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Feb 16, 2020 23:24
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I propose that we come back to this conversation in ten years, because by then Okada will indisputably be the one and only GOAT.
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Feb 16, 2020 23:25
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Randaconda posted:He who draws the most money is the best worker Enjoy your broken-down Undertaker and concussed Goldberg matches then I guess
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Feb 16, 2020 23:28
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I hope the business can eventually return to the good old days, when the primary draw was one of several 500-700 pound individuals who would arrive in your city, win a battle royal, be photographed enjoying comical amounts of the local delicacy, then leave for 8 months. That's the backbone of the industry
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Feb 17, 2020 00:21
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McDonalds sells the most cheeseburgers therefore they are the best at making cheeseburgers. I rest my case.
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Feb 17, 2020 00:22
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Randaconda posted:He who draws the most money is the best worker This isn't that hard if you're not trying to be the Die Hard is a Christmas Movie guy at the party.
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Feb 17, 2020 00:22
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It's artistic qualifiers and critical acclaim. Randaconda posted:Hmm yes, the business, which has always been first and foremost about making money, doesn't count guys who made more than anybody else! It turns out that people who don't live or die by capitalistic hell reasons find more intellectual measures of an arts quality.
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Feb 17, 2020 00:41
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Jericho has never been seriously injured throughout is career. Is there a logical explanation for this, or was he just extremely lucky?
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Feb 17, 2020 00:43
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IceAgeComing posted:I will always claim that the rule in US wrestling that titles can't change hands via DQs or count-outs is incredibly dumb. I get the historical reason for the DQ part (was to protect against screwjobs in times where there was a legit fear that a rogue promoter might change the World Title in that way) but the count-out bit makes no sense and seems to just be something that the WWWF started doing and everyone eventually copied post-national expansion. Today it makes no sense: why should someone that cheats in a match and gets disqualified be allowed to retain their title: it makes no sense and why should someone who legitimately loses the match retain a title just because they lost in a certain way? Add in the fact that it gives lazy bookers an excuse to book matches with no intent to give a meaningful finish and that they've been used as crutches forever things would be better if you got rid of that idea.
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Feb 17, 2020 00:52
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Schneider Heim posted:Jericho has never been seriously injured throughout is career. Is there a logical explanation for this, or was he just extremely lucky? Drunks usually walk away from any major accident.
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Feb 17, 2020 00:57
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Schneider Heim posted:Jericho has never been seriously injured throughout is career. Is there a logical explanation for this, or was he just extremely lucky? He broke his arm
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Feb 17, 2020 01:02
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Aphrodite posted:Drunks usually walk away from any major accident. Goddamn 
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Feb 17, 2020 01:04
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Schneider Heim posted:Jericho has never been seriously injured throughout is career. Is there a logical explanation for this, or was he just extremely lucky? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZvQY9SN-xY He says he had a back injury here.
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Feb 17, 2020 01:29
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Jericho has undoubtedly done some of the greatest/most memorable things in recent wrestling history when you consider his longevity, title reigns, companies worked, storylines, main events etc etc but when I think of who is the GOAT he never comes to my mind. I’m not sure why that is.
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Feb 17, 2020 01:49
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What are the most divisive matches of all time? Matches like Kenny vs Moxley from Full Gear that some people loved and some hated.
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Feb 17, 2020 01:57
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Schneider Heim posted:Jericho has never been seriously injured throughout is career. Is there a logical explanation for this, or was he just extremely lucky? He was severely injured attempting a shooting star press in practice before a match with the Heavenly Bodies in SMW. Broke his arm.
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Feb 17, 2020 02:05
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oldpainless posted:Jericho has undoubtedly done some of the greatest/most memorable things in recent wrestling history when you consider his longevity, title reigns, companies worked, storylines, main events etc etc but when I think of who is the GOAT he never comes to my mind. I’m not sure why that is. Like, when there's a fatal four-way, there'll be three main-eventers and one midcard guy they slot in with main-eventers they don't treat as a main-eventer in their own right, and that's the Jericho spot. We could give you the title at any time, but we almost never will because we didn't make you and don't like you that much.
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Feb 17, 2020 02:07
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Rey lost his ability to be GOAT by being a weakling loser and calling in Cain to fight his battle for Dominic; and he wears at shirt that says GOOAT with one of the O's being a luchador mask, instead of just having GOAT with the Luchador mask O and it makes me so angry!@!@!
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Feb 17, 2020 02:09
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fatherofmustard posted:What are the most divisive matches of all time? Matches like Kenny vs Moxley from Full Gear that some people loved and some hated. There are people out there who will still try to convince you that Bret/Shawn Iron Man wasn't an unwatchable sniozefest.
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Feb 17, 2020 02:09
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WSAENOTSOCK posted:When people say "worker," they don't mean "wrestler's ability to draw money" so much as they mean "can this wrestler go in the ring?" But the term worker didn't come up. If we are talking about Jericho as a GOAT worker he's not even in the conversation. As a complete package of a pro wrestler you can start to make the argument because he is very good at wrestling, promos, creating a character and everything else that goes into the presentation.
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Feb 17, 2020 02:23
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MassRafTer posted:But the term worker didn't come up. If we are talking about Jericho as a GOAT worker he's not even in the conversation. As a complete package of a pro wrestler you can start to make the argument because he is very good at wrestling, promos, creating a character and everything else that goes into the presentation.
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Feb 17, 2020 02:29
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Benne posted:There are people out there who will still try to convince you that Bret/Shawn Iron Man wasn't an unwatchable sniozefest.  The match at Survivor Series 92 was pretty good, iirc
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Feb 17, 2020 02:29
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