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For the future! Autonomous driving for example (not joking Germany quoted this as a reason we need 5G), also mobile coverage for remote areas, and because apparently people want to watch 4k content on their tiny mobile screens, can't survive without spotify and blah...), tl;dr: we don't "need" need it, it's just capitalism, big mobile is pushing for it because it makes them an assload of money from their overpriced plans and guess what the cheaper the infrastructure the bigger the margin. Also I would not be surprised at all if Germany made the deal with Huawei, our government are cheap bastards who don't care about potential future issues because by that time, the people responsible today will be long gone and raking on fat pensions. And then in 25 years they will all be like "who could've known China has such an aggressive expansion policy going and wants to rule is all This came totally out of the blue you guys" Hopper fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Feb 17, 2020 |
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Feb 17, 2020 19:04
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Play posted:Also I'm not sure I understand why every country suddenly feels like it needs 5G. Can someone explain that to me, why everyone is so keen? I feel like just making the existing networks stronger would be pretty okay, or at least waiting until installing 5G isn't so expensive I tend to agree, I don't see any new technologies on the cusp of breakout that have been put on hold merely because extant mobile wireless networks have insufficient bandwidth. There is some talk of more autonomous vehicles requiring the ability to communicate vehicle to vehicle that would only be possible with 5G. In fairness though, I am old timey person who doesn't require the ability to stream 4K video to my phone or whatever kids do these days. https://www.t-mobile.com/5g
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Feb 17, 2020 19:08
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Hopper posted:words poo poo my dude, our posts crossed but agree.
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Feb 17, 2020 19:10
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Hopper posted:
This is the real reason. Telecom companies have run out of must have plan features that they can convince people they need to spend more on.
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Feb 17, 2020 19:19
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5G for self driving cars is hilariously stupid. Sure, lets use wavelengths that are blocked by anything and everything, including air, to pilot vehicles.
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Feb 17, 2020 19:26
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Play posted:
You're right in that the threat is largely on the infrastructure side, but in the future it exists for personal communication devices as well. In 15-20 years when China is a true superpower and the US has fallen behind more avenues of abuse open up to them. We've already seen how China is intent on controlling speech outside the mainland when they can get away with it, the Houston Rockets thing from a month ago for example. They were able ro effectively silence/extract an apology from a US citizen because of economic levers they were able to pull. In 20 years if Huawei had a large majority of the phone market outside of China what is to stop them from censoring your ability to make a post on social media critical of the Chinese government? Sure we have free speech, but what would you or our government actually be able to do about it if they were the dominant world power and controlled even more economic levers than they do now? You could switch phones, but in this hypothetical future they probably have the best and cheapest and who is going to pay hundreds more to criticize the PRC when they could just not do it? They could do the same with their backend infrastructure. They couldn't actually prevent free speech, but they could certainly have a large chilling effect on it, something they already have as we have seen! The other threat is corporate espionage and blackmail. Maybe you are mid-level management at a company and have access to a internal white paper or something they would like to get their hands on. Certainly not valuable enough to have a human operation onsite, but they could easily take a look through your phone then send you a message threatening to tell your wife you are cheating if you don't provide it. And that's only if they couldn't already access it through your phones connection or their infrastructure backdoor. Look these are all hypotheticals and there are plenty of arguments why this wouldn't happen, but we have already seen China is capable of this type of behavior so ask yourself what you think would happen when they are the dominant super power and have backdoors into greater than 50% of telecommunication infrastructure AND personal communication devices. When nobody has the political will to stand up to them because they've got everyone's corporations and economies by the balls and their military has largely caught up to modern parity with the west? Huawei has the potential to be a true existential threat to everybody and could be a gigantic boon to China and they know it as evidenced by Huawei's current business practices.
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Feb 17, 2020 19:29
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Blistex posted:This is the real reason. Telecom companies have run out of must have plan features that they can convince people they need to spend more on. I presume this is it too. Phones pretty much work most of the time now and the internet access is plenty fast for anything I can imagine doing. The only other thing I can think of is a bet that if there's even more bandwidth available, someone will find a use for it, like how video streaming became a thing once broadband allowed for it. They might be right about that, just because I can't think of anything doesn't mean there isn't anything.
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Feb 17, 2020 19:30
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Grand Fromage posted:I presume this is it too. Phones pretty much work most of the time now and the internet access is plenty fast for anything I can imagine doing. The only other thing I can think of is a bet that if there's even more bandwidth available, someone will find a use for it, like how video streaming became a thing once broadband allowed for it. They might be right about that, just because I can't think of anything doesn't mean there isn't anything. Seems kind of rear end backwards to put in all this infrastructure first and THEN find out what you're gonna use it for, but what do I know? I mean, the capitalist machine needs new and exciting products, preferably ones that are always connected to the internet at some absurd speed so valuable data about you can be captured and sold. Several companies seem to want people's entire digital life in the cloud and connected to the internet of things, and 5G seems like a stepping stone to that and also just a way to market new tech like self-driving cars, augmented reality, internet of things stuff that is always connected, streaming games to portable devices, etc.
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Feb 17, 2020 19:36
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5g can provide speeds similar to what physical pipes can provide now. It's a hell of a lot cheaper to put up a 5g tower that covers 15 miles than to run physical lines to all the places in a 15 mile radius that need it. That's the big selling point from what I understand.
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Feb 17, 2020 19:37
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Also, don't discount public demand for additional Gs.
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Feb 17, 2020 19:40
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My impression was that 5g is kind of impractical for typical mobile use anyway for power/heat/range/penetration reasons and is more about trying to be an alternative to traditional broadband down the road, and for things like mom-mobiles and RVs with WiFi where the kids are currently all trying to stream over the same 4g and making a LOT of noise in the back
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Feb 17, 2020 19:42
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Play posted:Seems kind of rear end backwards to put in all this infrastructure first and THEN find out what you're gonna use it for, but what do I know? There's a lot of instances historically where a technology was developed with no obvious use and then people figured out what to do with it. That's kind of the whole history of the internet, honestly. It's a risky idea since if you do it and no market shows up you wasted a whole lot of time, but it isn't unprecedented.
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Feb 17, 2020 19:57
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Peachfart posted:5G for self driving cars is hilariously stupid. Sure, lets use wavelengths that are blocked by anything and everything, including air, to pilot vehicles. Plus if you ever heard about the 90:10 problem, you know autonomous driving isn't coming any time soon. 90:10 basically says, if 90% of cars are manual and 10% are autonomous it spells disaster, same with 90% autonomous and 10% manual, because computers and humans driving doesn't mesh well and would lead to all kinds of issues, crashes and congestion
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Feb 17, 2020 20:02
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Grand Fromage posted:There's a lot of instances historically where a technology was developed with no obvious use and then people figured out what to do with it. That's kind of the whole history of the internet, honestly. It's a risky idea since if you do it and no market shows up you wasted a whole lot of time, but it isn't unprecedented. True, but here we're talking about potentially putting your country and its telecom infrastructure at risk from the influence of an authoritarian regime, all for the sake of technology that doesn't exist yet
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Feb 17, 2020 20:11
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D-Pad posted:5g can provide speeds similar to what physical pipes can provide now. It's a hell of a lot cheaper to put up a 5g tower that covers 15 miles than to run physical lines to all the places in a 15 mile radius that need it. That's the big selling point from what I understand. 5G wavelengths have a (max) range of ~500m, or 2% of 4G's range, and apparently anything over 300m means you're probably dropping it more than using it. You're going to need a shitload of towers, and they all have to be line of sight to actually work. I'm talking if you turn your head while on the phone it will drop the 5G connection and 4G will have to take over. Fog, rain, glass, paper, etc. are all barriers that effectively block it, and if you want 5G in your home you need a repeater for every room. Picture the number of Cell towers in your current area. To get a similar area covered with 5G you're going to need 50x more towers to do it, or god knows how many more hotspots/repeaters. . . which only work if you're outside pointing your phone directly at a tower/hotspot. Also 5G phones will have to use special cases to protect them, as your average $5 silicone deal off Amazon will block the antennas and it won't work. The potential energy requirements for 5G alone tell me it's going to be a horrible technology environmentally if they don't figure out a way around it the hundreds to thousands of times more towers/repeaters. But then again, ~1/10th latency . . . Also, most carriers are not approaching the peak bandwidths available with 4G, and I have a feeling that 5G will be similar with most people paying more for 2-3 times the speed instead of the touted 100X that some "experts" are claiming. 
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Feb 17, 2020 20:27
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wtf is this paid shilling lmao mesh networking is the real future
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Feb 17, 2020 20:39
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It seems a lot of people in here don't know much about 5G or what it actually is. That's ok, most politicians pushing it don't have a clue either (see the self driving car comments). 5G is just a collection of standards so that when all the carriers roll out their next set of infrastructure upgrades it all plays nicely. 90% of 5G that is planned for rollout in the next 5 or so years is going to be FR1 under the 5gNR standard. It's basically the same thing as LTE-A which is what 4G is but they improved the back end routing and logic to reduce latency on the network by a lot. This means that all the crowded LTE bands in high traffic areas suddenly get a big capacity boost and outside of those areas you'll notice that stuff should load faster, though you won't actually have more bandwidth. Consumer side, it's basically it's getting network latency down low enough that you can play a multiplayer FPS on it and not hate yourself. This part of the 5G rollout uses the same frequency bands as LTE and is designed to seamlessly co-exist with LTE networks. FR2 is the spooky millimeter wave band stuff that shows up in the news constantly. This is the stuff that has very limited propagation range but also extremely high data throughput. It runs at around 40 GHz where FR1 is around 800 MHz. There are a ton of neat little technological things that running at 40 GHz enables. Stuff like antenna's being so miniaturized you can have entire arrays bonded directly onto a microchip and whatnot. The only country that is seriously rolling out FR2 currently is the US and it is being almost entirely used for backhaul infrastructure for the time being. Basically using steerable arrays between fixed base stations, they can use line of sight peer to peer microwave links on demand when the wired connection gets too full and alleviate network congestion at relatively low deployment costs. I would expect to see FR2 in Japan, Germany, and Korea next then the rest of the EU to follow. Basically, 5G is just the general infrastructure improvements that are going to be required to keep ahead of the expected demand curve but has the potential to allow some new technologies down the road thanks to improved latency and potentially very high throughput. The hype around it has all been very weird to me. Grand Fromage posted:There's a lot of instances historically where a technology was developed with no obvious use and then people figured out what to do with it. That's kind of the whole history of the internet, honestly. It's a risky idea since if you do it and no market shows up you wasted a whole lot of time, but it isn't unprecedented. I mean, this is basically the history of most of the US' major tech breakthroughs. There are a ton of smart people in the world and when you give them access to cheap resources, they figure out how to put it to work. Eventually corporations move in and raise the barrier to entry and then we move on to something else. There used to be a school of economic thought in the US where the best way to make money was to create new markets and capture a tiny share of it via first mover advantage because when a new market emerges, it's so large that any early share of it will be giant as well.
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Feb 17, 2020 20:40
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Blistex posted:Words... Just because you regurgitate something you read on reddit doesn't make it true. Lol if what you said was the case literally nobody would roll it out. I'm not claiming it lives up to some of the extreme hype you see floating around, but carriers actually do want to make money. See the explanation two posts below yours for why this is wrong.
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Feb 17, 2020 21:09
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When I worked for an ISP, they had the bright idea to build one of the main 2.4 radio links (that connected to something like 20 or 30 local transmitters and some thousand or so customers on them) over one of the major rivers in europe. For some *mysterious* reason, there'd be frequent, massive packet loss for everyone hanging on them, that these idiots at the wireless controll couldn't make sense of. Until they loving noticed that since it's going over a river, there's ships passing through that shot down the whole main link with their radar, radio etc. The whole system of transmitters was in the mountainous countryside of a german speaking country. They outsourced the on-site support to local radio techs and electricians, only the transmitters were supported by the provider, with predictable results. I can't even start to describe that stuff. Duct tape installation of antennas, bouncing signals over roofs, mounting antennas facing walls - INDOORS lol, drunk techs, boar attacks, mounting a bridge inside a metal breaker box in the basement, avalances, fires, drunk tractor drivers taking down stuff, transmitters freezing, woodpecker attacks on antennas, not repairing transmitters and not telling the remaining customers on there for months because there's too few of them left to justify that etc. Man, everybody HATED that system with a passion. We had normal cable to support too, that was in a similar area, and in no way resembling this ultra cursed product. By the time they switched to 5 GHz, the customer base had evaporated, and only then things worked passable. I guess the takeaway is, it's really expensive to get decent coverage in a hilly/mountainous area, and without a government building and maintaining infrastructure, you're out of luck in any place that isn't densely populated. That stuff constantly breaks down. It's like a countryside miasma that grinds down the wireless infrastructure.
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Feb 17, 2020 21:16
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There is real kayfabe in the industry right now regarding what 5G actually is and what the end user is being told it is, and I would not fault anyone who isn't immersed in this poo poo for having a kinda weird idea of it. It's generating lots and lots of money for everyone involved.
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Feb 17, 2020 21:20
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The entire worldwide telecommunications industry has put all their hopes and dreams on a technology that drops connection if you turn your head. /s I mean these companies can be pretty dumb, but they aren't that dumb.
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Feb 17, 2020 21:23
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D-Pad posted:The entire worldwide telecommunications industry has put all their hopes and dreams on a technology that drops connection if you turn your head. /s Certain parts of the industry actually love this rumor and the ~50X more infrastructure~ thing e: to explain more, local contractors absolutely (want to) believe this is true, and the people who sell them equipment are happy to indulge it with slick presentations that all have the same basic point as Blistex's post. I've seen it firsthand d0s fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Feb 17, 2020 |
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Feb 17, 2020 21:29
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The junk collector posted:It seems a lot of people in here don't know much about 5G or what it actually is. That's ok, most politicians pushing it don't have a clue either (see the self driving car comments). This is a good post and really helps to understand this poo poo.
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Feb 17, 2020 21:46
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D-Pad posted:In 15-20 years when China is a true superpower and the US has fallen behind 
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Feb 17, 2020 21:57
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Hey, can we get a reprise of the "by 2020" china edition?
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Feb 17, 2020 22:02
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In NBA terms China is 15 years away from being 15 years away
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Feb 17, 2020 22:03
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Yeah I should have said "if"
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Feb 17, 2020 22:06
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-51520622quote:A document that appears to give the most powerful insight yet into how China determined the fate of hundreds of thousands of Muslims held in a network of internment camps has been seen by the BBC.
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Feb 17, 2020 22:18
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Play posted:Also I'm not sure I understand why every country suddenly feels like it needs 5G. Can someone explain that to me, why everyone is so keen? I feel like just making the existing networks stronger would be pretty okay, or at least waiting until installing 5G isn't so expensive From my UK point of view it is fear of not keeping up. The government gets endless criticism for not rolling out fiber optics fast enough, for lagging behind on rural 3/4G signal, etc. It is framed as kneecapping businesses outside the big cities. So if they have a chance to very visibly get in on the ground floor of Hot New Tech poo poo and stick it to the critics, they will. 5G can gently caress right off IMO
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Feb 17, 2020 23:08
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The junk collector posted:It seems a lot of people in here don't know much about 5G or what it actually is. That's ok, most politicians pushing it don't have a clue either (see the self driving car comments). That's great but have you considered that 5G was invented by China and Huawei has the best 5G, allowing access to so much 5G that it's leaving all the other 5G's in the dust, where they can only salivate
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Feb 17, 2020 23:31
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5G is a benevolent gift bestowed by the Middle Kingdom at the grace of Emperor Xi Jinping, ruler of all under heaven, upon all the barbarian nations, who could not comprehend such G's were it not for the beneficence of the Celesial Empire.
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Feb 17, 2020 23:38
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Telus appears to agree https://www.thestar.com/politics/fe...xpert-says.html
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Feb 17, 2020 23:51
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Hey, I was thinking about all the countries which historically used the Chinese writing system and eventually developed their own, which more closely aligned with their spoken grammar. Given the trends mobile computing is having on Chinese literacy, what would it take to develop something like Hangul but for Chinese? How closely integrated into Chinese language and thought is their alphabet? Given all the conlangers online I imagine someone must have taken a crack at something like this.
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Feb 18, 2020 00:35
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Better start stocking up on opium to trade for those sweet sweet G's
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Feb 18, 2020 00:47
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I mean, if there's an actual way to get equipment and services from Huawei but only concerning "nonsensitive" aspects (re: the article just posted) , that sounds fine I guess? If you're able to actually ensure that Huawei will have no ability to take advantage then that's basically a free infrastructure grant with zero interest from China. I wonder if that is actually possible though, seems a bit too convenient to be feasible
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Feb 18, 2020 00:56
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:Hey, I was thinking about all the countries which historically used the Chinese writing system and eventually developed their own, which more closely aligned with their spoken grammar. Given the trends mobile computing is having on Chinese literacy, what would it take to develop something like Hangul but for Chinese? How closely integrated into Chinese language and thought is their alphabet? Well, isn't that what pinyin already is? Or even bopomofo. The problem for Chinese is the number of homophones. Even with tones and the -er retroflex, there's less than 2000 sounds you can make in Mandarin. You'd have to have some familiarity with the characters to understand what a particular sound means in a sentence.
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Feb 18, 2020 00:56
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Play posted:I mean, if there's an actual way to get equipment and services from Huawei but only concerning "nonsensitive" aspects (re: the article just posted) , that sounds fine I guess? If you're able to actually ensure that Huawei will have no ability to take advantage then that's basically a free infrastructure grant with zero interest from China. The fact that a company in Canada is allowed to use equipment from a company that is essentially an arm of the CCP which is also currently engaging in genocide, so they can save a few bucks is a loving travesty.
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Feb 18, 2020 01:02
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Play posted:I mean, if there's an actual way to get equipment and services from Huawei but only concerning "nonsensitive" aspects (re: the article just posted) , that sounds fine I guess? If you're able to actually ensure that Huawei will have no ability to take advantage then that's basically a free infrastructure grant with zero interest from China. Even in that hypothetical scenario it's still not fine because any direct business with China is a moral failure.
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Feb 18, 2020 01:03
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Blistex posted:The fact that a company in Canada is allowed to use equipment from a company that is essentially an arm of the CCP which is also currently engaging in genocide, so they can save a few bucks is a loving travesty. Canada historically has been onboard with genocide.
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Feb 18, 2020 01:38
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Mr. Nice! posted:Canada historically has been onboard with genocide. True, but is it a little too much to ask to not continue with that trend?
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Feb 18, 2020 01:40
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