Tree Bucket posted:

I guess Dune is built around examining the things we do to survive. The desert hawk eats carrion, the Fremen drink poop water, and the nobles have all their kanly forms to obey. Dune asks us to consider which of these we consider more or less good or disgusting, and why. Herbert keeps asking if ecological drives and pressures are tools for humans to use, or laws for humans to transcend, or an inescapable tragedy to which we can only respond by singing something sad with our baliset....
Meanwhile LotR was written by a WW1 veteran. Tolkien came from a civilisation that had also asked "what shall we do to survive?" and decided the answer was to spend half a decade funnelling a few million of their best and brightest into an industrial meat grinder, as efficiently as possible. The West's pursuit of power, efficiency, knowledge and order had culminated in a sixteen year olds coughing up their lungs as green foam in a muddy hole somewhere.
So Tolkien hunts for alternatives. He knows, in a visceral sense, that "survive" is not enough. Tolkien loves- well- the star and the soil, high transcendent beauty and the simple earthly happiness of eating a huge pile of food in a pub with a few friends. A civilization which has ceased to value these things isn't a civilization at all: it has become pragmatic and organised and powerful, aka, Mordor.
So I can see why Tolkien disliked Dune. There is no happiness in Dune. No one enjoys a meal (except for the baron, prior to his "pleasures") and no one finds the stars beautiful (except possibly Leto, once) and no one celebrates together (except for the Fremen, after murdering a bunch of enemies.) Dune's characters spend the whole book seeing through everything and wind up blind; it is a cast of Sarumans and Saurons.
I imagine Tolkien found Dune to be a 300-page exploration of what the trenches had already taught him: humans need more than survival.

Tree Bucket posted:

I guess Dune is built around examining the things we do to survive. The desert hawk eats carrion, the Fremen drink poop water, and the nobles have all their kanly forms to obey. Dune asks us to consider which of these we consider more or less good or disgusting, and why. Herbert keeps asking if ecological drives and pressures are tools for humans to use, or laws for humans to transcend, or an inescapable tragedy to which we can only respond by singing something sad with our baliset....
Meanwhile LotR was written by a WW1 veteran. Tolkien came from a civilisation that had also asked "what shall we do to survive?" and decided the answer was to spend half a decade funnelling a few million of their best and brightest into an industrial meat grinder, as efficiently as possible. The West's pursuit of power, efficiency, knowledge and order had culminated in a sixteen year olds coughing up their lungs as green foam in a muddy hole somewhere.
So Tolkien hunts for alternatives. He knows, in a visceral sense, that "survive" is not enough. Tolkien loves- well- the star and the soil, high transcendent beauty and the simple earthly happiness of eating a huge pile of food in a pub with a few friends. A civilization which has ceased to value these things isn't a civilization at all: it has become pragmatic and organised and powerful, aka, Mordor.
So I can see why Tolkien disliked Dune. There is no happiness in Dune. No one enjoys a meal (except for the baron, prior to his "pleasures") and no one finds the stars beautiful (except possibly Leto, once) and no one celebrates together (except for the Fremen, after murdering a bunch of enemies.) Dune's characters spend the whole book seeing through everything and wind up blind; it is a cast of Sarumans and Saurons.
I imagine Tolkien found Dune to be a 300-page exploration of what the trenches had already taught him: humans need more than survival.

Tree Bucket posted:

I guess Dune is built around examining the things we do to survive. The desert hawk eats carrion, the Fremen drink poop water, and the nobles have all their kanly forms to obey. Dune asks us to consider which of these we consider more or less good or disgusting, and why. Herbert keeps asking if ecological drives and pressures are tools for humans to use, or laws for humans to transcend, or an inescapable tragedy to which we can only respond by singing something sad with our baliset....
Meanwhile LotR was written by a WW1 veteran. Tolkien came from a civilisation that had also asked "what shall we do to survive?" and decided the answer was to spend half a decade funnelling a few million of their best and brightest into an industrial meat grinder, as efficiently as possible. The West's pursuit of power, efficiency, knowledge and order had culminated in a sixteen year olds coughing up their lungs as green foam in a muddy hole somewhere.
So Tolkien hunts for alternatives. He knows, in a visceral sense, that "survive" is not enough. Tolkien loves- well- the star and the soil, high transcendent beauty and the simple earthly happiness of eating a huge pile of food in a pub with a few friends. A civilization which has ceased to value these things isn't a civilization at all: it has become pragmatic and organised and powerful, aka, Mordor.
So I can see why Tolkien disliked Dune. There is no happiness in Dune. No one enjoys a meal (except for the baron, prior to his "pleasures") and no one finds the stars beautiful (except possibly Leto, once) and no one celebrates together (except for the Fremen, after murdering a bunch of enemies.) Dune's characters spend the whole book seeing through everything and wind up blind; it is a cast of Sarumans and Saurons.
I imagine Tolkien found Dune to be a 300-page exploration of what the trenches had already taught him: humans need more than survival.

Tree Bucket posted:

I guess Dune is built around examining the things we do to survive. The desert hawk eats carrion, the Fremen drink poop water, and the nobles have all their kanly forms to obey. Dune asks us to consider which of these we consider more or less good or disgusting, and why. Herbert keeps asking if ecological drives and pressures are tools for humans to use, or laws for humans to transcend, or an inescapable tragedy to which we can only respond by singing something sad with our baliset....
Meanwhile LotR was written by a WW1 veteran. Tolkien came from a civilisation that had also asked "what shall we do to survive?" and decided the answer was to spend half a decade funnelling a few million of their best and brightest into an industrial meat grinder, as efficiently as possible. The West's pursuit of power, efficiency, knowledge and order had culminated in a sixteen year olds coughing up their lungs as green foam in a muddy hole somewhere.
So Tolkien hunts for alternatives. He knows, in a visceral sense, that "survive" is not enough. Tolkien loves- well- the star and the soil, high transcendent beauty and the simple earthly happiness of eating a huge pile of food in a pub with a few friends. A civilization which has ceased to value these things isn't a civilization at all: it has become pragmatic and organised and powerful, aka, Mordor.
So I can see why Tolkien disliked Dune. There is no happiness in Dune. No one enjoys a meal (except for the baron, prior to his "pleasures") and no one finds the stars beautiful (except possibly Leto, once) and no one celebrates together (except for the Fremen, after murdering a bunch of enemies.) Dune's characters spend the whole book seeing through everything and wind up blind; it is a cast of Sarumans and Saurons.
I imagine Tolkien found Dune to be a 300-page exploration of what the trenches had already taught him: humans need more than survival.

Bubblyblubber posted:

I think Tolkien was just angry he didn't come up with Amam pussy magic first.

Nessus posted:

Or did he? Consider the elf tentacles.

skasion posted:

The Individuals of the Ring

Heather Papps posted:

yes.


i have been thinking about the good post.

it is a fellowship, of members, and through acts of individual heroism the world is saved.

in dune generations of fremen save and store water, for the future of their planet.
the bene gesserit are basically a collective consciousness, and again, long term planning.

one of the biggest points hammered home by herbert is that acts of individual heroism can have negative consequences that are completely unpredictable.

skasion posted:

Middle-earth is not saved through acts of individual heroism. It’s saved by God. Frodo’s heroic resolve was all for nothing in the end. He fails and falls to evil. Only the fundamentally benevolent character of the social hierarchy in which he was raised got him that far on his servant’s back, and his servant only got that far because God impelled nations to sacrifice themselves in a hopeless war against a superior enemy. Frodo’s individual choices totally failed to effect the change he set out to effect, and it was thanks to the higher power that backed him that he didn’t just ruin everything. The price of this is his permanent alienation from his culture, an alienation that can be wiped away only by escape from the cursed world into a sacred space.

skasion posted:

I like them both too. I just feel like both are about both communities and individuals, I don’t think they’re fixated on one to the exclusion of the other. I think it’s telling that both end with the protagonist saving the day and beating their enemies and...totally detached from society and no longer able to live well.

skasion posted:

*snorts an absolute poo poo ton of spice such that my eyes become depthless wells of blue darkness and I see all paths into the future and time and space are as nothing to me and all mortal considerations are secondary and wheels within wheels of terrible purpose wake within me and ideas never before conceived begin to swarm to the surface of the id*

Rhyming midgets.

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Oompa-Loompa doopety doo...

Bubblyblubber posted:

I think Tolkien was just angry he didn't come up with Amam pussy magic first.

skasion posted:

Middle-earth is not saved through acts of individual heroism. It’s saved by God. Frodo’s heroic resolve was all for nothing in the end. He fails and falls to evil. Only the fundamentally benevolent character of the social hierarchy in which he was raised got him that far on his servant’s back, and his servant only got that far because God impelled nations to sacrifice themselves in a hopeless war against a superior enemy. Frodo’s individual choices totally failed to effect the change he set out to effect, and it was thanks to the higher power that backed him that he didn’t just ruin everything. The price of this is his permanent alienation from his culture, an alienation that can be wiped away only by escape from the cursed world into a sacred space.

Johnny Aztec posted:

I thought the god of LOTR setting was AWOL, and the "angels" like Gandalf were just continuing their initial orders.

priznat posted:

Really interesting stuff, I enjoy this discussion. Fascinating to compare them!

Johnny Aztec posted:

I thought the god of LOTR setting was AWOL, and the "angels" like Gandalf were just continuing their initial orders.

Heather Papps posted:

is there a gbs lotr thread yet?

Anne Frank Funk posted:

you're in it

skasion posted:

Middle-earth is not saved through acts of individual heroism. It’s saved by God. Frodo’s heroic resolve was all for nothing in the end. He fails and falls to evil. Only the fundamentally benevolent character of the social hierarchy in which he was raised got him that far on his servant’s back, and his servant only got that far because God impelled nations to sacrifice themselves in a hopeless war against a superior enemy. Frodo’s individual choices totally failed to effect the change he set out to effect, and it was thanks to the higher power that backed him that he didn’t just ruin everything. The price of this is his permanent alienation from his culture, an alienation that can be wiped away only by escape from the cursed world into a sacred space.

Shaddak posted:

What do you get when you guzzle down spice?
Naming yourself after the jumping mice.
You know the ultimate meaning of life.
You must make jihad right now!

kiimo posted: