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PHIZ KALIFA posted:why just china? there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, period. if we want to gently caress up china's economy, let's abolish capitalism. C-SPAM is that way
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Feb 19, 2020 21:42
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Yeah, let's all bring in Planned, Top-down Economies. I lust for death.
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Feb 19, 2020 21:51
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Fojar38 posted:C-SPAM is that way Phiz is right though, business with China is no more a moral failure than business with the US, truly
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Feb 19, 2020 21:58
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anything china does to muslims we do to the children and infants of asylum seekers. so, y'know. vote sanders 2020.
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Feb 19, 2020 22:06
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:anything china does to muslims we do to the children and infants of asylum seekers. I'm going to be generous and assume that you just don't know how bad China is treating the Uighers or anything about the history of Chinese colonialism in central Asia
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Feb 19, 2020 22:13
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your generosity is wasted on me, a genius of all things, and i say to thee: america is still worse.
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Feb 19, 2020 22:15
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me vs america: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZYt4tKNTP0
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Feb 19, 2020 22:16
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A more accurate analogy would be the westward expansion of European powers in the Americas except instead of the most heinous stuff happening 1 to 3 centuries ago it's happening right now and can still be stopped.
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Feb 19, 2020 22:17
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Poe's law in full effect.
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Feb 19, 2020 22:19
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:anything china does to muslims we do to the children and infants of asylum seekers. Uhhh, as far as locking people up for no good reason in terrible conditions I guess?? But then there's stuff like the organ harvesting and campaign of ethnic cleansing/genocide that really doesn't draw many parallels.
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Feb 19, 2020 22:19
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phiz is just goofin
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Feb 19, 2020 22:20
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I wanna say the sum of everything the USA has done over the course of its imperial reign for the last century is worse than China in that regard but that the CCP is worse than even our two lovely neoliberal corporatist slave parties at this given moment in history
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Feb 19, 2020 22:22
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Monkey Fracas posted:I wanna say the sum of everything the USA has done over the course of its imperial reign for the last century is worse than China in that regard but that the CCP is worse than even our two lovely neoliberal corporatist slave parties at this given moment in history What about over the course of China's 5000 years of history
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Feb 19, 2020 22:28
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One of my favorite stories from Imperial China is when a slave rebellion was put down and the officials made the surviving slaves get on their hands and knees and beg to be reenslaved instead of killed
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Feb 19, 2020 22:29
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Fojar38 posted:What about over the course of China's 5000 years of history lol
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Feb 19, 2020 22:32
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everything went south after the warring states period anyways
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Feb 19, 2020 22:35
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I mean hey the longer a country has been around the more dirty laundry they're going to have so if China claims 5000 years of history that's 5000 years of atrocities to dig through
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Feb 19, 2020 22:35
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Fojar38 posted:One of my favorite stories from Imperial China is when a slave rebellion was put down and the officials made the surviving slaves get on their hands and knees and beg to be reenslaved instead of killed I like the one about the 18 or 20 year old newly crowned emperor who was huge dickhead and hated by his court. He marshaled some big army to go fight whoever they considered "northern barbarians" at the time, his forces got trounced, and he literally sat down and had a temper tantrum about it right in the middle of the battlefield. He got taken prisoner, and as was normal for the time, the enemy tried to ransom him. However, his court was unreceptive to the idea, and basically made it clear they didn't want him back. The befuddled northerners weren't sure what to make of it, tried once or twice more to solicit a ransom, were unsuccessful , and the emperor was quietly disappeared shortly after. I wish I could remember the names involved so it doesn't sounds like I'm just making up bullshit. But I read this story directly from a big book of Chinese history, written by a history professor.
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Feb 19, 2020 22:38
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Monkey Fracas posted:I wanna say the sum of everything the USA has done over the course of its imperial reign for the last century is worse than China in that regard but that the CCP is worse than even our two lovely neoliberal corporatist slave parties at this given moment in history Worse because the US has spent more time as top dog perhaps. Give China time it is their turn did u know
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Feb 19, 2020 22:39
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uh i'd say china has spent a lot more time as top dog than america has it's just that we've had nukes for most of our time
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Feb 19, 2020 22:41
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Does any other country try to push as long a historical narrative as China as material justification for current political aims? Like do the Egyptians make claims on Sudan and Syria based on old maps of the New Kingdom? Mozi posted:uh i'd say china has spent a lot more time as top dog than america has ehhh not really, the idea of "the world" being a singular entity comprising the entire planet is a relatively new concept. China was top dog in its region but it was one of many different regions all with their own top dogs that didn't interact with eachother directly all that much
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Feb 19, 2020 22:43
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true; that said among the regional powers at the time, looking back, it was at times really no contest
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Feb 19, 2020 22:48
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Mozi posted:true; that said among the regional powers at the time, looking back, it was at times really no contest To be honest it was really only the middle ages where China was the strongest regional power relative to all the other regional powers (and even then not by much.) The Hellenic and Roman empires at their height were probably stronger than their Chinese contemporaries and the Umayyad Caliphate was probably about equal to the Song Dynasty Fojar38 fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Feb 19, 2020 |
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Feb 19, 2020 22:52
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:anything china does to muslims we do to the children and infants of asylum seekers. it's almost like centralized state power inherently leads to imperialism and horrifying atrocities, or something 
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Feb 19, 2020 22:57
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Chinese federalism now.
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Feb 19, 2020 22:59
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can't we just stop fighting over the ethics of 5G and get back to what the China thread's all about: genocide apologia
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Feb 19, 2020 23:09
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Fojar38 posted:Does any other country try to push as long a historical narrative as China as material justification for current political aims? Israel, maybe
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Feb 19, 2020 23:12
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I would say China has only been "Top dog" over the Romans etc if you are going by singular items like GDP. This is based on the assumption that "China" as we know it has always been a singular entity  . China has had a lot more people than anywhere else for pretty much most of it's history. But that comes with a very big BUT. When most of your population isn't doing much more above subsistence your country isn't going anywhere because that farmer couldn't go anywhere. They could all be the smartest farmers in the world but if they can't do anything with it they might as well be the dumbest. No helped that the government would squish you for innovating or pulling you off the farm for some dumbass war that ends because everyone was going to starve to death. China never had periods of explosive scientific growth. Not that they didn't invent things but they never went far with it. *Please stop Gunpowder.jpg* You would think with such a large coast line they would build fleets of ships, a naval tradition, explore, colonise the hell out of everything. But nah, just tool along the coast in Junks while Britain owned 1/4 of the world with ships of the line and could project power across the Atlantic. When the Opium Wars kicked down the door that should have woken them up to how rear end backwards they were like the Japanese who were all "Oh poo poo we better industrialise".
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Feb 19, 2020 23:33
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There is literally no way to measure the GDP of anywhere on the planet before the 19th century, both because almost nobody kept records, the records that were kept were unreliable, and everyone had a different notion of what constituted "wealth" If you ever see one of those charts that has like "historical GDP of China!" that shows it inevitably going to have like 3 times the GDP of the West on the basis of its supposed wealth in the loving Ming Dynasty or whatever whoever is citing that chart is a fraud that is full of poo poo
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Feb 19, 2020 23:55
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Fojar38 posted:I mean hey the longer a country has been around the more dirty laundry they're going to have so if China claims 5000 years of history that's 5000 years of atrocities to dig through Atrocities don't count if Whitey didn't do them, apparently. Japan is considered an honorary whitey by this point, due to losing its exotica status over the decades.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:03
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oohhboy posted:When the Opium Wars kicked down the door that should have woken them up to how rear end backwards they were like the Japanese who were all "Oh poo poo we better industrialise". Isn't that kind of exactly what happened? I mean not overnight, but the opium wars definitely brought China back to engaging with the wider world, they couldn't simply turn inward and rely on their massive population and wealth anymore. Fojar38 posted:There is literally no way to measure the GDP of anywhere on the planet before the 19th century, both because almost nobody kept records, the records that were kept were unreliable, and everyone had a different notion of what constituted "wealth" China definitely had a lot of wealth. At least its rulers did, the serfs didn't have poo poo. The global silver trade in the 17th and 18th centuries was totally dominated by China, partially because they used silver as their main currency but also because the country was fantastically rich, especially if you don't take into account its vast size. Numbers and charts are going to be nonsense but it's pretty clear that the rulers of China were fabulously, fabulously wealthy to an insane extent. They brought tens of thousands of pounds of silver into the country mostly by trading goods like silk and porcelain. The Ming traded for so much silver that Europe basically ran out of it, which was one of the things that caused the opium wars in the first place
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Feb 20, 2020 00:12
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The Ming Dynasty's rulers in that particular period definitely had "a lot of wealth," agreed. But we aren't talking about just that period or just that measurement.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:14
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Play posted:China definitely had a lot of wealth. At least its rulers did, the serfs didn't have poo poo. This is like the most generic historical statement ever made. It describes numerous places in all periods of history.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:16
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Fojar38 posted:The Ming Dynasty's rulers in that particular period definitely had "a lot of wealth," agreed. But we aren't talking about just that period or just that measurement. Sorry I meant Qing, which was exactly the period you referred to in your post. Most western countries were running a heavy trade deficit with China at that time, eventually so much so that they began running out of silver. The global silver trade was almost the start, in some ways, of international economics so it's a useful way to look at it. In addition the way western countries wanted so badly to trade with China that they went to war for it is a good indicator of how wealthy they believed the country was. Chomp8645 posted:This is like the most generic historical statement ever made. It describes numerous places in all periods of history. Sure, but... a LOT a lot. I don't think it'd be that controversial to say that the people on top in China were wealthier than anyone else on earth. At a time when Europe had a growing middle class, capitalists, etc. China was still on a completely different level as far as the gap between rulers and serfs and the rights held by those serfs
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Feb 20, 2020 00:21
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my original point was just that the US hasn't been around for very long, that's all, not to suggest china reigned supreme over all of history
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Feb 20, 2020 00:22
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:anything china does to muslims we do to the children and infants of asylum seekers. I dunno, not letting people in is in a slightly different league than not letting them out.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:34
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Play posted:In addition the way western countries wanted so badly to trade with China that they went to war for it is a good indicator of how wealthy they believed the country was. I mean, kinda yes, but really no. Western nations of that time went to war with others and each other all the time for all kinds of poo poo, including trade rights. So yeah the fact they went to war over it signals they considered it important, but it doesn't signal it as uniquely important. They did that poo poo all the time.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:49
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Play posted:Isn't that kind of exactly what happened? I mean not overnight, but the opium wars definitely brought China back to engaging with the wider world, they couldn't simply turn inward and rely on their massive population and wealth anymore. No. They remained very insular. They didn't go on an technology buying spree, industrialise. Not helped they had to fight Jesus brother. It wasn't until the second Opium War did things start changing. You had Shanghai moving forward as an exception. It was too late by then. The power structure was so fossilised only when it shattered were they free to actually do poo poo. Sure there were warlords everywhere, the Japanese invading but gently caress, you weren't doomed to be a serf. When Mao took over they hosed up their industrialisation so bad it was worse the warlord period. China only really started opening up late 80's. Decades of stagnation and isolationism. Trade was mostly for show or stealing Soviet technology. Japan absolutely blazed ahead with trade for a second time.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:59
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Warbadger posted:Uhhh, as far as locking people up for no good reason in terrible conditions I guess?? But then there's stuff like the organ harvesting and campaign of ethnic cleansing/genocide that really doesn't draw many parallels. You trying to say that if Trump needed new kidneys as a result of holding in his piss for russian prostitutes, an appropriate loophole wouldn't be found to give him access to all that prime virgin mexican organmeat? The chinese are just further along the curve with this poo poo. TRUP 2020 MAGA WOOGOOO americal #1.!!!
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Feb 20, 2020 01:00
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oohhboy posted:They don't look like stick nades. I think they are Russian F1 like grenades. A sleeve would be a very bad idea as you wouldn't know when it would release. You like saying nade huh
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Feb 20, 2020 01:11
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