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forkboy84 posted:Let me introduce you to the flawless system: open borders. Both of which are also good things to do. e: 1995 starts with Fred West departing prison and ends with Nick Leeson entering it. Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Feb 19, 2020 |
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Feb 19, 2020 21:59
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Guavanaut posted:The big flaw is you can't have a social floor and open borders without also taxing wealth worldwide and stopping the rich from just setting up their own gated communities. Several countries (Canada for one I believe) do tax wealth worldwide.
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Feb 19, 2020 22:16
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I would just like to say, gently caress Brexit, and gently caress what it's done to the country, and what it will continue to do, gently caress the Tories, gently caress elitist arsetwatbadgers, gently caress the continuous corruption, gently caress the media bullshittery that continues to keep the country hosed, gently caress gently caress fuckity gently caress. Thanks.
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Feb 19, 2020 22:56
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Camrath posted:Anyway I’m going to go now and buy ingredients for a whole shitload of fudge. Hopefully that will make me feel better. Fudge is delicious btw for what it's worth. Hope you get better mate 
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Feb 19, 2020 23:03
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Jollity Farm posted:I'm in a bad mood. I was supposed to have an appointment at the Job Centre today (ESA/WRAG stuff), but the bus was late and so I was fifteen minutes late to the appointment and had to book another one. They didn't stop my benefits (I was so frightened that they would) so I've probably got nothing to complain about, but I still feel so ashamed and embarrassed, and I just needed to get that off my chest to someone, and I didn't feel like explaining the UK benefits set-up to people who don't live here, because I scarcely understand it myself. You aren't a burden, the jobcentre are dickheads.
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Feb 19, 2020 23:06
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Several countries (Canada for one I believe) do tax wealth worldwide. Aren't US citizens obligated to pay some degree of tax regardless of whether they live in the USA or not, officially at least?
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Feb 19, 2020 23:06
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forkboy84 posted:Eh, it'd be great but it ain't going to be the SNP who break up the estates. Even within the boundaries of devolution their land reform policy has been weak. Agreed, but land reform is one of those things were I can probably unarguably say it would be massively helped along by the country being independent.
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Feb 19, 2020 23:07
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ThomasPaine posted:Aren't US citizens obligated to pay some degree of tax regardless of whether they live in the USA or not, officially at least? Yes the way I understand it is they pay tax on worldwide income regardless whether they live in the USA or not. The flip side is they can claim it back as a tax credit if they already paid an equal amount or more tax to the country they live in, but they cannot pay less than the amount the feds demand they pay. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Feb 19, 2020 23:09
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ThomasPaine posted:Aren't US citizens obligated to pay some degree of tax regardless of whether they live in the USA or not, officially at least? If you sell anything on Amazon or whatever that might get sold to an American market you are supposed to fill in a form to say you are exempt from US taxes. I vaguely remember filling in one once when I put something on one of those sites that makes cards or mugs out of your images. But if Americans take stuff to Goodwill (if decluttering for example) they can put in some kind of tax reduction thing based on the value of the goods. Not sure how it works but as an aficionado of home organizing sites I know Americans are always talking about it.
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Feb 19, 2020 23:10
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qhat posted:Yes the way I understand it is they pay tax on worldwide income regardless whether they live in the USA or not. The flip side is they can claim it back as a tax credit if they already paid an equal amount or more tax to the country they live in, but they cannot pay less than the amount the feds demand they pay. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. There's an income floor below which you don't actually pay US tax, currently about $90k, but you're still supposed to file your tax return. This poo poo is why I never took out US citizenship. I don't believe Canada does this, it's like the US and Eritrea or something worldwide.
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Feb 19, 2020 23:13
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I mean perhaps the SNP at best is center-left, but I think the argument to be made by Scottish Nationalists is that the results provided by the SNP have been preferable to the direction that England has taken the UK, and independence would only give the Scottish left more leeway. (If you look at the statistics between Scottish NHS its competitor to the south you can see a massive statistical difference.) Independence would undoubtably allow the Scottish electorate, which in all honesty, does seem generally to the left of the English electorate, have a better chance at seeing reform. Corbyn made an effort, but ultimately he was dragged down by factors out of his control (Brexit) and a media that hates any form of positive change for non-wealthy people. The Scottish media is arguably isn't that much better but it certainly would be a fairer fight. Likewise, it would be hard to see that Scottish immigration policy would be as restrictive as the rest of the UK (which is pretty much the Australian system) if Scotland ever wanted a chance at rejoining the EU.
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Feb 19, 2020 23:19
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Jollity Farm posted:I'm in a bad mood. I was supposed to have an appointment at the Job Centre today (ESA/WRAG stuff), but the bus was late and so I was fifteen minutes late to the appointment and had to book another one. They didn't stop my benefits (I was so frightened that they would) so I've probably got nothing to complain about, but I still feel so ashamed and embarrassed, and I just needed to get that off my chest to someone, and I didn't feel like explaining the UK benefits set-up to people who don't live here, because I scarcely understand it myself. You have nothing to feel ashamed of. You have value just being who you are. You don't have to "be someone" to matter.
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Feb 19, 2020 23:21
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Ardennes posted:I mean perhaps the SNP at best is center-left, but I think the argument to be made by Scottish Nationalists is that the results provided by the SNP have been preferable to the direction that England has taken the UK, and independence would only give the Scottish left more leeway. (If you look at the statistics between Scottish NHS its competitor to the south you can see a massive statistical difference.) the material argument for independence has grown a lot stronger since brexit and again since brexit devolved into what it did. i still find nationalism morally repugnant though. i genuinely think people underestimate that scotland still has an extremely influential minority of voters who are very lower case c conservative (in all three of the major parties) particularly on economic issues. this is why they had the fiasco with the currency question in 2014 - the party wound up trying to please every part of their big tent. the position they landed on - that scotland would retain the current currency (the pound) of the UK - leaving their printing presses to a nation that may be antagonistic to them in future - can kindly be described as poor. i'm of the opinion this was entirely to placate their very economically conservative, often pensioner voter bloc. i tend to diagnose "centre left" as closer to "liberal" - often for better but occasionally for worse, scotland is a far more liberal country than the remainder of the UK. i would describe the SNP as a liberal nationalist party? representing the modern strain of TERFism on liberal parties very well, unfortunately..
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Feb 19, 2020 23:43
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Ash Crimson posted:imagine not wanting to be ruled by a bunch of blue blooded, silver-spooned inbred aristocrats Yes, it's much better to be propositioned by honest Scottish sex offenders.
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Feb 19, 2020 23:51
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The Donut posted:I would just like to say, gently caress Brexit, and gently caress what it's done to the country, and what it will continue to do, gently caress the Tories, gently caress elitist arsetwatbadgers, gently caress the continuous corruption, gently caress the media bullshittery that continues to keep the country hosed, gently caress gently caress fuckity gently caress. 
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Feb 19, 2020 23:53
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Coohoolin posted:Agreed, but land reform is one of those things were I can probably unarguably say it would be massively helped along by the country being independent. The SNP being poor at governing and completely failing to address (one of many) fundamental inequalities and running on the most milquetoast of centrist platforms is proof that supporting their key poicy obective is good? That is certainly an argument.
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Feb 19, 2020 23:57
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I have to admit I'm really torn up that Brexit turned our tolerant, multi-cultural society into a hive of racism and stupidity really changed the arc of history
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Feb 20, 2020 00:03
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Coohoolin posted:Agreed, but land reform is one of those things were I can probably unarguably say it would be massively helped along by the country being independent. If there's one thing the international community has been universally behind it's been newly-independent countries telling rich people "Yeah this land is ours now". I mean it's *unlikely* that the new People's Caledonian Republic will get the Guatemala treatment but at the same time that's probably because Guatemala already happened and they'll play extra nice with the "owners" of the Highlands.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:09
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Tesseraction posted:I have to admit I'm really torn up that Brexit turned our tolerant, multi-cultural society into a hive of racism and stupidity Me living in Canada right now, I can't envision myself ever returning at this point unless there is some kind of uprising and total evisceration of the Tories in their current form. Even then it will be hard to get over the massive damage they have done and are currently doing to the country. I'd like to think things will get better once enough old boomer fuckheads die off and millennials start forming the majority of voters, but that won't be for a long time and I probably will care even less about moving back to the UK at that point.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:17
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boy there are a lot of us intending to or having moved to canada, huh.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:18
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Which is a weird choice on moral grounds given they're currently genociding the native population.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:20
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qhat posted:Me living in Canada right now, I can't envision myself ever returning at this point unless there is some kind of uprising and total evisceration of the Tories in their current form. Even then it will be hard to get over the massive damage they have done and are currently doing to the country. I'd like to think things will get better once enough old boomer fuckheads die off and millennials start forming the majority of voters, but that won't be for a long time and I probably will care even less about moving back to the UK at that point. Honestly while Canada is lorded over by Justin "let me kiss your arse Modi" Trudeau, I absolutely understand your POV. At least JT is just moderately poo poo rather than our current government's attempts to beat each others' speedrun records for worst human being alive.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:20
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OwlFancier posted:Which is a weird choice on moral grounds given they're currently genociding the native population. the currently is kind of redundant, we literally never stopped 
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Feb 20, 2020 00:21
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Tesseraction posted:Honestly while Canada is lorded over by Justin "let me kiss your arse Modi" Trudeau, I absolutely understand your POV. At least JT is just moderately poo poo rather than our current government's attempts to beat each others' speedrun records for worst human being alive. I mean, there's the whole invading unceded indigenous land for an oil pipeline thing which isn't exactly a good look right now.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:21
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Tesseraction posted:I have to admit I'm really torn up that Brexit turned our tolerant, multi-cultural society into a hive of racism and stupidity Turned? Or just dropped all pretense.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:22
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Yeah but like, the UK is supplying arms to Saudi Arabia while they're committing genocide in Yemen, among other things. No I'm not happy about what Canada is doing, obviously, but I don't think moving somewhere is a tacit endorsement of everything (or indeed anything) that the government does.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:23
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Angry Lobster posted:Turned? Or just dropped all pretense. I think it might have been sarcasm. Honestly hard to tell, I'm two minds about it.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:25
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WhatEvil posted:Yeah but like, the UK is supplying arms to Saudi Arabia while they're committing genocide in Yemen, among other things. Honestly, it's difficult to argue that it's not unless you refuse to pay your taxes which directly pay for the actions of the government. Which would be a principled stand, to be sure, but one which you can't really get away with unless you're monstrously rich anyway. It's just that there isn't really anywhere without some level of shitness in its government, at the moment.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:26
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Private Speech posted:I think it might have been sarcasm. It doesn't matter either way.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:30
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thespaceinvader posted:Honestly, it's difficult to argue that it's not unless you refuse to pay your taxes which directly pay for the actions of the government. Or skint, that also means you don't pay taxes 
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Feb 20, 2020 00:33
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thespaceinvader posted:Honestly, it's difficult to argue that it's not unless you refuse to pay your taxes which directly pay for the actions of the government. Is it tacit endorsement of the UK government's actions if you work and pay taxes there, then? And yeah your latter point is the one I was making.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:33
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CoolCab posted:the material argument for independence has grown a lot stronger since brexit and again since brexit devolved into what it did. i still find nationalism morally repugnant though. Granted, you could argue that it is really about two types of competing nationalism at this point, especially considering the latest news. I don't think the UK is "better together" at this point. quote:i genuinely think people underestimate that scotland still has an extremely influential minority of voters who are very lower case c conservative (in all three of the major parties) particularly on economic issues. this is why they had the fiasco with the currency question in 2014 - the party wound up trying to please every part of their big tent. the position they landed on - that scotland would retain the current currency (the pound) of the UK - leaving their printing presses to a nation that may be antagonistic to them in future - can kindly be described as poor. i'm of the opinion this was entirely to placate their very economically conservative, often pensioner voter bloc. I don't know if the currency issue is strong evidence, remember the referendum was in the aftermath of both a global financial crisis and admist the Eurocrisis. Both a Scottish Pound and the Euro were arguably unpopular for a reason at that point and the British pound was the default. That said, times have changed and the British pound is probably going to be trending downward versus both the USD and the Euro. I think it is more about relative FX markets have ideological politics. quote:i tend to diagnose "centre left" as closer to "liberal" - often for better but occasionally for worse, scotland is a far more liberal country than the remainder of the UK. i would describe the SNP as a liberal nationalist party? representing the modern strain of TERFism on liberal parties very well, unfortunately.. Of course, the SNP party is still liberal, but arguably its brand of liberalism is arguably still considerably preferable to what is occuring in the South (especially if the Blarites re-entrench themselves and there is no escape from the current political trajectory). In addition, after independence, Scottish politics will probably normalize to a fair extent.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:33
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Ash Crimson posted:imagine not wanting to be ruled by a bunch of blue blooded, silver-spooned inbred aristocrats I got some bad news for you. We've got plenty of those of our own. Coohoolin posted:Agreed, but land reform is one of those things were I can probably unarguably say it would be massively helped along by the country being independent. I mean, I appreciate the optimism but I don't really know why you think that. I'd hope it'd improve with independence but I it's not guarantee. It's not like the SNP are going to stop being funding by people like Souter & Gloag (& lets not forget that Gloag owns two castles, one in Invernesshire & the other in Perthshire & went to court to stop people from rambling in the woods on the Kinfauns estate) just because we vote Yes.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:33
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WhatEvil posted:Is it tacit endorsement of the UK government's actions if you work and pay taxes there, then? Yes, I think it is. At least, if you both understand the actions of said government, and have the option of choosing to move somewhere less poo poo. It's something I struggle with, especially as someone who's at least theoretically in possession of the means to move elsewhere. Not to mention the whole core problem of the impossibility of ethical consumption under capitalism being a daily struggle all of its own. But as noted, I don't think there's anywhere markedly better, at the moment, at least not that it's plausible for me to move to right now, even if selfishly, I wasn't happy finally being in a place where I'm actually building a life.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:38
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thespaceinvader posted:I mean, there's the whole invading unceded indigenous land for an oil pipeline thing which isn't exactly a good look right now. I said moderately poo poo when Trudeau declares muslims aren't allowed to be citizens unless they have decades of documentation, I'll take back my words
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Feb 20, 2020 00:50
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Private Speech posted:I think it might have been sarcasm. nah I'm a white supremacist despite being Bharat Indian
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Feb 20, 2020 00:51
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If I get to the point of actively thinking and worrying about all of the things that the government of either the UK or Canada does with my money I won't be able to function at all. I'm already a leftist, trying to fight for what's right in the world. I donate what money I can to charities which do good things. I try to be a somewhat ethical consumer to the extent that that's possible. I'm by no means saying that none of it matters or that you shouldn't consider it, I'm just saying that I and others have to survive. Probably the best thing for the world in terms of environmental impact and impact on other disadvantaged people e.g. in the third world would be if I didn't survive and donated all my stuff to charity when I went, but then, I'm stupid enough and have hard-wired evolutionary instinct to keep living. Many people don't have a choice where they live. Merely existing in most places has a detrimental effect on others by either funding your government or consuming things which are produced in an unethical manner, simply through lack of other choice. If you *do* have a choice of where to live, the choice is between a load of more-or-less equally poo poo options in most cases (taking into account the need to be able to survive where you end up, by e.g. getting a job). You can drive yourself crazy with this poo poo (and to some extent I have), but all in all that's not going to help anything.
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Feb 20, 2020 00:57
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WhatEvil posted:You can drive yourself crazy with this poo poo (and to some extent I have), but all in all that's not going to help anything. Hard same. The logic loop of no ethical consumption is, as noted, a daily struggle. My only real out recently has been various forms of ineffectual hairshirting (made harder by understanding that they're largely ineffectual, albeit not entirely, hence bothering at all), and the actually useful move of looking for work specifically in local (or in the case of the job I'm starting soon, a local branch of a national charity) enterprises that actually make an effort to help the local community. I can't make my continued existence more ethical, except by trying to use the damage I know I'm causing, positively.
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Feb 20, 2020 01:02
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Yeah I'm looking at starting a business in Ottawa making vegan food, for two reasons really: I don't want to work for any other fucker, and also I think that promoting vegan food over meat may actually help to save the environment a little. Also if I start my own business I can not be a poo poo, pay workers fairly (and ultimately probably set it up as a co-op), support the local community, give a portion of proceeds to charity, all that stuff. Not that I even want to hire workers necessarily, would be quite happy if it were just something I could do on my own and get by, but if I end up having to.
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Feb 20, 2020 01:08
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Ardennes posted:Granted, you could argue that it is really about two types of competing nationalism at this point, especially considering the latest news. I don't think the UK is "better together" at this point. quote:I don't know if the currency issue is strong evidence, remember the referendum was in the aftermath of both a global financial crisis and admist the Eurocrisis. Both a Scottish Pound and the Euro were arguably unpopular for a reason at that point and the British pound was the default. That said, times have changed and the British pound is probably going to be trending downward versus both the USD and the Euro. I think it is more about relative FX markets have ideological politics. think i would personally describe the current SNP is a liberal party structure attempting maintain a rainbow coalition, with a centre left to actively socialist activist wing and base. they still have a impractically big tent. quote:Of course, the SNP party is still liberal, but arguably its brand of liberalism is arguably still considerably preferable to what is occuring in the South (especially if the Blarites re-entrench themselves and there is no escape from the current political trajectory). In addition, after independence, Scottish politics will probably normalize to a fair extent. i've never, ever understood the reasoning for the latter - i suspect that if we moved to independence soon we would have the snp, or possibly a similarly liberal continuity party, with the conservatives as a second party and maybe labour and some leftist parties fighting for third - which is to say, the exact same configuration we have now. i'm not entirely sure why the SNP is supposed to disintegrate if it's managed to make itself popular enough to achieve independence? it would only do so with a long record of good governance?
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Feb 20, 2020 01:11
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