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ECW had a big cult following and they were definitely pioneers in some respects. Also they had more lows than highs even at the time, and a whole lot of it hasn't aged well. Sandman, for example, we talk about how much he was wasted in WCW compared to how over he was in ECW... but the flip side of that is, how the hell did ECW manage to get that much mileage out of a guy who had absolutely zero talent?
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Feb 20, 2020 21:54
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Tato posted:Shane Douglas was really, really broken down by the time he got to WCW. poo poo, he was pretty toasted in ECW from all the accumulated injuries and then the weird deal with his sinuses exploding all the time. Then he made the mistake of "walking out" on WCW along with The Radicalz even though there was no way he could follow through with it, ECW and WWF didn't want him. He never was a political genius. There's a whole bit in Foley's first book about Shane (who he came up with) and the various stumbles and burned bridges in his past that stopped him fulfilling his potential. Dean Douglas comes up a fair bit.
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Feb 20, 2020 21:57
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Remember when Shane Douglas tried to incite ECW chants at a WWE show and the camera cut away from him right before he could reveal his shirt?
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Feb 20, 2020 21:59
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Heyman was very very good at booking people to showcase their strengths and hide their flaws. He built a company and a fandom where working up the crowd was often enough, and that's what Sandman did. I thought pretty much everything he did was boring, but it wasn't for me. A big thing about entertainment in the 90s (especially the early Internet) was that often it didn't really matter what you did, as long as it was shocking and too extreme for a TV network or a newspaper.
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Feb 20, 2020 22:04
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MassRafTer posted:He thought he had solidarity with the Radicalz and they negotiated with WWF behind his back. I think he didn't know until he found out Dean Malenko was spotted at a hotel in Stamford and called the room or something. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.
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Feb 20, 2020 22:07
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Better Than You posted:What's even funnier is that before eventually revealing the truth, Malenko flat out lied to Douglas and told him he was fishing with his brother in Florida or somewhere like that. In Shane's defense, he thought robots were incapable of lying 
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Feb 20, 2020 23:10
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Ciclope was a robot this whole time? It all makes sense now!
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Feb 20, 2020 23:16
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rujasu posted:Sandman, for example, we talk about how much he was wasted in WCW compared to how over he was in ECW... but the flip side of that is, how the hell did ECW manage to get that much mileage out of a guy who had absolutely zero talent? Sandman peaked during a period when ecw main events were overbooked nonsense. Every match he did involved a bunch of storyline development, run-ins, "catfights", etc, so it was never really necessary for him to do anything besides doing his entrance followed by a couple sloppy moves. Another good reason that he didn't get stale was that his "peak" only lasted a few years. Before he got popular he had a surfer gimmick, and then a heel persona. Him becoming a good guy and getting the entrance coincided with ecw getting more tv/ppv exposure so that period sticks out more. surfer sandman is so bad lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwUSDeTv_es&t=71s
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Feb 21, 2020 02:01
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I like that he had moves named after drinks that a teenager would try to order.
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Feb 21, 2020 02:10
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I liked the story Foley told in one of his books about clonking Sandman with a frying pan, trying to pin him but Sandman kept kicking out. So eventually the match ends, Foley asks him what the gently caress happened. "I don't know, I don't remember anything past the pan"
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Feb 21, 2020 06:15
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boy and I thought I loved surfer sting
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Feb 21, 2020 06:40
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surfer sandman would be booed out of the building in 2020
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Feb 21, 2020 12:29
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Better Than You posted:surfer sandman would be booed out of the building in 2020 Actually wrestling is ready for a new surfing gimmick.
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Feb 21, 2020 12:46
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forkboy84 posted:Actually wrestling is ready for a new surfing gimmick. His name is Matt Riddle
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Feb 21, 2020 13:17
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IT"S MY PLEASURE
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Feb 21, 2020 13:29
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I think I first learned who Sandman was from the ECW Originals match at WM23. Then I went back and found videos of his entrance at ONS 2005. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1czzyj What an awesome moment. This was back when I was learning about the magic of pro-wrestling. First it was explained to me how wrestlers bleed and then I was told "and Sandman just busts himself open with that beer can the normal way." No wonder he got fired, he bled all th time as part of his gimmick.
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Feb 21, 2020 15:53
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He was fired because the Undertaker caught him taking a nap at the arena. FWIW Shane Douglas, when he's not in the throws of drug addiction is actually a pretty chill guy. I met one of his former students and they had nothing but high praise for him. ECW's legacy is a bunch of addicts struggling to stay clean.
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Feb 21, 2020 16:06
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I keep seeing Sandman in WCW being referred to as not having a name, but wasn't it Hak or Hardcore Hak?
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Feb 21, 2020 16:08
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yeah Hardcore Hak. He'd stumble out to the ring wrapped in barbed wire. Which I thought was pretty clever at the time.
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Feb 21, 2020 16:10
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coconono posted:yeah Hardcore Hak. He'd stumble out to the ring wrapped in barbed wire. Which I thought was pretty clever at the time. Rubber barb wire because you know, WCW
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Feb 21, 2020 16:14
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NikkolasKing posted:I think I first learned who Sandman was from the ECW Originals match at WM23. Then I went back and found videos of his entrance at ONS 2005. I remember that. It was one of the coolest entrances I've ever seen. I don't remember a drat thing about the match, who it was against, what happened, anything. I just remember the crowd singing along with Enter Sandman. Here's the thing. About a year later, WWE did an ECW TV revival. Sandman was part of it. He did not have "Enter Sandman" as his entrance theme any more, because WWE would have had to pay Metallica an obscene amount of money to use the song on a TV show. Without the song, and without an arena full of ECW marks, Sandman wasn't over with the crowd at all. And without a big entrance or crowd reaction, his lack of talent was far more apparent (just like it was when he was Hak in WCW). coconono posted:He was fired because the Undertaker caught him taking a nap at the arena. I believe this. But at the same time, you don't get fired for a nap if you're valuable to the company. Steve Austin wasn't going to get fired for taking a nap. Sandman was fired because he was just another guy. He was expendable.
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Feb 21, 2020 16:18
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rujasu posted:Here's the thing. About a year later, WWE did an ECW TV revival. Sandman was part of it. He did not have "Enter Sandman" as his entrance theme any more, because WWE would have had to pay Metallica an obscene amount of money to use the song on a TV show. Without the song, and without an arena full of ECW marks, Sandman wasn't over with the crowd at all. And without a big entrance or crowd reaction, his lack of talent was far more apparent (just like it was when he was Hak in WCW). They also only used him to open the show by beating up zombies and mummies and poo poo.
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Feb 21, 2020 16:20
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Pope Corky the IX posted:They also only used him to open the show by beating up zombies and mummies and poo poo. Yeah. It was something about them being on Sci-Fi (before it renamed to Syfy) and they had to have some kind of sci-fi content on the show. I was never sure if it was supposed to be a joke or if the channel really made them do that or what, but yeah, it was a debacle and certainly contributed to both Sandman and ECW as a show not getting over with the fans. coconono posted:yeah Hardcore Hak. He'd stumble out to the ring wrapped in barbed wire. Which I thought was pretty clever at the time. Yeah, his whole gimmick was he only did hardcore matches and he wrapped everything in barbed wire, including himself. It was a joke, much like everything else having to do with WCW's hardcore division. ECW had a cult following and WWE had hardcore matches, so WCW decided they should do it too, instead of playing to their own strengths and audience.
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Feb 21, 2020 16:27
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WCW hardcore matches were pure plunder affairs and I enjoyed that. Dudes roll a shopping cart full of terrible things down to the ring. Did not care for the announcers going "oh it makes a terrible noise, but it doesn't really hurt"
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Feb 21, 2020 16:34
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I honestly liked Terry Funk's run with the Hardcore title, where they just kept trying to get the belt off of him but he wouldn't lose. This might have also been around the time he almost got murdered by a horse
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Feb 21, 2020 16:38
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ECW's tradition of "curtain-jerk match of destroying the zombie or a local jobber" was the bestDeathChicken posted:I honestly liked Terry Funk's run with the Hardcore title, where they just kept trying to get the belt off of him but he wouldn't lose. This might have also been around the time he almost got murdered by a horse FUCKIN HORSE I'LL KICK YOUR rear end
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Feb 21, 2020 16:38
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coconono posted:WCW hardcore matches were pure plunder affairs and I enjoyed that. Dudes roll a shopping cart full of terrible things down to the ring. The nadir of this was the 6 man hardcore match between some of the remaining lucha guys, where they were having a good hard hitting hardcire match and the announce crew laughed at them the whole time
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Feb 21, 2020 16:39
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Pope Corky the IX posted:I keep seeing Sandman in WCW being referred to as not having a name, but wasn't it Hak or Hardcore Hak? On his first night in the company, Sandman cut a promo and had a match while not having a name. He was not called Hak until later.
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Feb 21, 2020 16:41
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Jesus how hard is it to just call him Jimmy Sands or something
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Feb 21, 2020 16:43
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Jesus how hard is it to just call him Jimmy Sands or something I think his IRL nickname was Hak which is why they just went with that. But I could have made that up, my memory is bad.
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Feb 21, 2020 16:45
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Max Coveri posted:On his first night in the company, Sandman cut a promo and had a match while not having a name. He was not called Hak until later. Actually his first night was in a pretape with raven
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Feb 21, 2020 16:45
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I remember hearing that Hak was his real-life nickname backstage, so the name wasn’t pulled out of thin air. Edit: beaten
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Feb 21, 2020 16:46
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forkboy84 posted:I think his IRL nickname was Hak which is why they just went with that. But I could have made that up, my memory is bad. No you're correct, I'm just saying debuting without a name is unacceptable from WCW's perspective He later opened a restaurant called Hak's Bar and Grill I think
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Feb 21, 2020 16:46
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I actually really like the idea of a guy who's like "The company put this stupid gimmick on me and I'm not having it. You can still call me Sandman though whatever I'll put you to sleep." It made sense for the time, anyway.
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Feb 21, 2020 16:49
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Another Franchise thing i recall, although a couple other heels were guilty of this trend too: Coming out for a promo, getting the mic, and immediately yelling "CUT MY drat MUSIC"
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Feb 21, 2020 16:56
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DJExile posted:Another Franchise thing i recall, although a couple other heels were guilty of this trend too: A much better heel move is to come out with a mic for a promo or something, but then just let their music play for a while, maybe sing along or air guitar.
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Feb 21, 2020 17:07
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rujasu posted:Yeah. It was something about them being on Sci-Fi (before it renamed to Syfy) and they had to have some kind of sci-fi content on the show. I was never sure if it was supposed to be a joke or if the channel really made them do that or what, but yeah, it was a debacle and certainly contributed to both Sandman and ECW as a show not getting over with the fans. Week 1: Beat up a Zombie Week 2: Beat up a fat dude dressed up as "Macho Libre" Week 3: Beat up Big Dick Johnson Week 4: Does not appear Week 5: Beats up Mike Knox for attempting to keep Knox's "exhibitionist" teenage girlfriend from making out with another girl Weeks 6-11: Feuds with Mike Knox and Test and gets beat up a lot Week 12: Gets beat up by The Teacher Matt Striker Week 13: Tries to beat up Matt Striker but he runs away Week 14: Tries to beat up Mike Knox and Test but they run away Week 15: On losing trio vs. Knox/Test/Striker Week 16: Loses to Big Show Week 17: Loses to Big Show and Matt Striker Week 18: Beats Matt Striker in 3 v 2 handicap match Week 19: Beats Matt Striker in Singapore Cane on a Pole Match Week 20: Cuts promo on Umaga Week 21: Cuts another promo on Umaga, beats up a circus clown Week 22-25: Does not appear December to Dismember: Runs in after a match to beat the victorious vampire couple Week 26-30: Does not appear Week 31: Beats up Elijah Burke Week 32: Jobs to Elijah Burke Week 33: Eliminated from Battle Royale by Vampire Week 34: Insulted by Vince McMahon for being a drunk, beats up Elijah Burke 4 on 1 with the other ECW Originals Week 35: Insulted by Vince McMahon for being a has-been Week 36: Pinned by a vamprie Week 37: Does not appear Week 38: Canes a lady vampire Week 39: Points to the Wrestlemania sign with his cane Week 40: Eliminated from Battle Royal by Matt Striker Week 41: Cheers on Tommy Dreamer as he loses a match Week 42: Does not appear Wrestlemania 23: Old ECW Team beats New ECW Team Week 43: New ECW team beats old ECW Team Week 44: Jobs to CM Punk Week 45: Beats New ECW guys in tag match Week 46: Loses in Old ECW Fatal Fourway booked by Vince Week 47: Squashed by Snitksy Week 48-50: Does not appear Week 51: Old ECW loses a 3-on-1 tables match against Lashley Week 52: Drafted to Raw I think maybe three of those count as sci-fi/fantasy? (The Zombie, Kelly Kelly, Kevin Thornn)
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Feb 21, 2020 17:12
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hold up, was Kelly Kelly canon underage? That part blew by me. The whole thing was dumb.
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Feb 21, 2020 17:16
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oldpainless posted:Actually his first night was in a pretape with raven Oh man, was that the bit where he's the preppy friend of Raven's family?
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Feb 21, 2020 17:22
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coconono posted:hold up, was Kelly Kelly canon underage? That part blew by me. The whole thing was dumb. Mike Knox was a decade older. Oh man, this WWE.com profile: quote:Throughout her teenage years, Kelly continued to act out for a while. But, what she phrased as "a little stage of rebellion" was soon put in check when she started working to chase down activities that expressed her passions. Not surprisingly, besides being a very good student from the start, she chose to dedicate herself to extracurricular activities that reflected her commitment to excellence and her ability to dazzle the crowd. "I was a gymnast for 10 years. I was very dedicated. That was my thing." If I am understanding this timeline right, Johnny Ace started talking to her when she was 18, she was signed to FCW when she was a few months past her 19th birthday, and debuted on ECW about a month later. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Feb 21, 2020 |
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Feb 21, 2020 17:30
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