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Hadlock posted:Yeah I'm not going to jump deeper into this argument but colleges do have job prep resources outside of strict academia Sounds like your onboarding and docs are really bad Might want to invest some time in improving them Or realize that as a more senior engineer a big part of your job is enabling juniors
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Feb 26, 2020 14:42
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If you want to hire people that are already familiar with industry practices and can hit the ground running with minimal supervision needed, maybe you shouldn't be hiring juniors. Are you hiring juniors because they're cheap? That's a false economy, unless you're just planning on exploiting people who don't know any better.
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Feb 26, 2020 15:21
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barkbell posted:it would be good to explore concepts of version control, containers, virtualization, etc. also using vim and linux extensively for interacting with school servers. what do i know tho. vim doesn't provide anything special to a software developer over the many other extensible, customizable text editors out there. The only things that differentiate it are universal availability (important for sysadmins, sure, but not devs), and a steep learning curve that lets people feel really smart for using a text editor.
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Feb 26, 2020 15:58
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Space Gopher posted:vim doesn't provide anything special to a software developer over the many other extensible, customizable text editors out there. The only things that differentiate it are universal availability (important for sysadmins, sure, but not devs), and a steep learning curve that lets people feel really smart for using a text editor. Hey man, if you can exit vim, you're set.
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Feb 26, 2020 16:27
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https://twitter.com/iamdevloper/status/435555976687923200?lang=en
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Feb 26, 2020 16:29
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Volguus posted:Hey man, if you can exit vim, you're set. *unplugs computer* Success!
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Feb 26, 2020 16:29
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Space Gopher posted:vim doesn't provide anything special to a software developer over the many other extensible, customizable text editors out there. The only things that differentiate it are universal availability (important for sysadmins, sure, but not devs), and a steep learning curve that lets people feel really smart for using a text editor. Not to take the editor holy war bait, but unless there are other modal highly-customizable text editors out there, then just plain modal editing is a pretty noticeable differentiator. I'm still very happy to use (g)vim for text editing needs because I can just do stuff much faster in it than any other editor precisely because it's modal and has easy macros. But yeah, I very rarely evangelize for others to learn it because of that learning curve.
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Feb 26, 2020 17:41
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Re: editor wars, my favorite thing about walking into a 40-person team's massive JVM codebase of shared libraries was seeing that most of their tests would not run natively in IntelliJ without some finagling, and none of their source code was published with the libraries, meaning when you tried to cmd+click into a library from IntelliJ you got bytecode instead of source. This is because the leads were all Vim-supremacy bozos with no use for such things, and the underlings had just grown up not knowing they didn't have to try and decipher bytecode to figure out what all the garbage libraries they had to code with were doing under the covers. Our team did finally get their dumb Gradle plug-in to publish source code. Smugworth fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Feb 26, 2020 |
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Feb 26, 2020 18:10
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I’ve only been using Java for a few months, and I’m convinced that IntelliJ is Java’s killer feature.
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Feb 26, 2020 18:44
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im really looking forward to the tortured explanation of why onboarding docs can't possibly exist and setting up a github login must be explained from scratch every single time
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Feb 26, 2020 19:19
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I do think source control should be taught in college. Sometime in the very first semester. Professors can use it to grab assignments if they want. But most importantly it would save every student the hell of losing their work, or overwriting it, or ending up in the hell of “this worked six hours ago, why doesn’t it work now?”
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Feb 26, 2020 19:30
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lifg posted:I do think source control should be taught in college. Sometime in the very first semester. Professors can use it to grab assignments if they want. But most importantly it would save every student the hell of losing their work, or overwriting it, or ending up in the hell of “this worked six hours ago, why doesn’t it work now?” You think all CS professors are familiar with source control?  Some might be, but in my experience it was a minority, especially among the crustier old lifetime academics with no industry experience.
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Feb 26, 2020 19:33
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:You think ftfy
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Feb 26, 2020 19:35
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Fair point. Edit: I still think students should be taught it early. It’ll make their life easier.
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Feb 26, 2020 20:33
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lifg posted:I do think source control should be taught in college. Sometime in the very first semester. Professors can use it to grab assignments if they want. But most importantly it would save every student the hell of losing their work, or overwriting it, or ending up in the hell of “this worked six hours ago, why doesn’t it work now?” I did have a professor go over source control in one class - a graduate level software engineering class I was taking for a master's program.
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Feb 26, 2020 20:53
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CS programs should simply reject anyone who's not already using Linux On The Desktop
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Feb 26, 2020 22:28
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I will jump on the github demo project thing in a bit, that was a really good question, I want to stew on it more before answeringJabor posted:If you want to hire people that are already familiar with industry practices and can hit the ground running with minimal supervision needed, maybe you shouldn't be hiring juniors. I honestly/absolutely believe that if you have a degree in CS or are getting hired for a full time software development job you should know how to use Git in TYOOL 2020. It's on par with hiring a truck driver and expecting them to know how to put fuel in the tank. It's not explicitly required for getting your license but you're gonna have to do it every day and I shouldn't have to teach you how to do it. 
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Feb 26, 2020 23:07
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Space Gopher posted:vim doesn't provide anything special to a software developer over the many other extensible, customizable text editors out there. The only things that differentiate it are universal availability (important for sysadmins, sure, but not devs), and a steep learning curve that lets people feel really smart for using a text editor. I meant using vim in conjunction with editing files on a remote Linux server. And being comfortable with that. I’m not advocating for using vim as your main editor for development.
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Feb 26, 2020 23:20
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Hadlock posted:I will jump on the github demo project thing in a bit, that was a really good question, I want to stew on it more before answering I've got 13 years in the industry and I've never used git professionally and right now I couldn't do anything at all with it without googling everything, but even when I was fresh out of school I could have printed out a cheat sheet and gotten by. Much like putting fuel in the tank it may be required for some jobs but also like putting fuel in the tank you can teach someone the basics in maybe 15 minutes.
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Feb 26, 2020 23:24
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Just out of curiosity what are you using
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Feb 26, 2020 23:43
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Hadlock posted:Just out of curiosity what are you using I'm not saying schools shouldn't teach Git, my experience is probably not standard for new grads these days and version control in general is a good skill to have, but if someone can get a 4 year degree in CS from a reputable school they can probably pick up Git on the job without a ton of trouble. If you get someone who has never used Git just link them to https://product.hubspot.com/blog/git-and-github-tutorial-for-beginners and let them spend a few hours walking through it. Boom they are trained on Git!
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Feb 27, 2020 00:50
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When I went to school a few years ago I had a junior level "software engineering" course a couple years into being introduced. It consisted of a group project where we were tasked with working together on a project of our choosing (greenfield, open source, continuing a project from the previous semester), agile concepts, scrum (stand-ups with your group in front of class, woo!), a "submit a GitHub PR" assignment, and the Uncle Bob's Agile Software Development textbook. It was taught by a professor with a CS doctorate who worked in industry and focussed on getting students job-ready, accompanying us on local recruiting trips and sponsoring the CS club. It was pretty ok, I'm not sure if I got more out of it than I did at my internship, but I imagine with refinement it would be a pretty "internship lite" learning-wise for the students who took advantage of it. It of course had all the headaches of a normal group project course, don't ask me about the GitHub contributors screenshot I bitterly took of the guy who didn't make a single commit all semester.
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Feb 27, 2020 00:57
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Jabor posted:If you want to hire people that are already familiar with industry practices and can hit the ground running with minimal supervision needed, maybe you shouldn't be hiring juniors. I would never have imagined that it would be controversial to suggest students should be taught skills and concepts directly applicable to the industry that they're about to enter, but here we are.
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Feb 27, 2020 01:03
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Jose Valasquez posted:I've got 13 years in the industry and I've never used git professionally and right now I couldn't do anything at all with it without googling everything, but even when I was fresh out of school I could have printed out a cheat sheet and gotten by. There's a huge difference in understanding between someone who was first exposed to Git 15 minutes ago vs. someone who was required to use it from the beginning of their four year university degree and that difference in understanding is very valuable. And yes, I know that some old fart in here will be all "BACK IN MY DAY", but I'm not trying to say it's NECESSARY, I'm just saying it's super useful and super valuable for an employee to come into the workforce already equipped with four years of experience using git even if it was just for their studies.
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Feb 27, 2020 01:06
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a hot gujju bhabhi posted:There's a huge difference in understanding between someone who was first exposed to Git 15 minutes ago vs. someone who was required to use it from the beginning of their four year university degree and that difference in understanding is very valuable. And yes, I know that some old fart in here will be all "BACK IN MY DAY", but I'm not trying to say it's NECESSARY, I'm just saying it's super useful and super valuable for an employee to come into the workforce already equipped with four years of experience using git even if it was just for their studies. The comparison was never between someone who just learned Git and someone with 4 years experience using Git as a part of getting their degree. It was between someone with 4 years of coding experience as part of their degree who just learned Git and someone who starting learning everything a few months ago in their bootcamp.
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Feb 27, 2020 01:21
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given the relative lag of academia wrt languages, any (D)VCS coursework would be a bored grad student listing off RCS commands, a final exam entirely on mercurial, and you'd still have to ramp them up on git
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Feb 27, 2020 01:26
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a hot gujju bhabhi posted:I would never have imagined that it would be controversial to suggest students should be taught skills and concepts directly applicable to the industry that they're about to enter, but here we are. A university isn't a trade school, though your confusion is understandable because there's a lot of pressure from business owners for them to be one since a lot of business owners don't want to pay for their employee's professional development.
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Feb 27, 2020 01:31
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I'm not really opposed to it but you're just gonna have a bunch of college students that have 4 years of experience pushing a single commit to master the night before a project is due
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Feb 27, 2020 01:39
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Jabor posted:A university isn't a trade school 
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Feb 27, 2020 01:51
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Jabor posted:A university isn't a trade school, though your confusion is understandable because there's a lot of pressure from business owners for them to be one since a lot of business owners don't want to pay for their employee's professional development. If you're not going to university in order to receive an education that will help you start a career, then what ARE you going there for? What are you paying all that money for? Curiosity? Fun?
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Feb 27, 2020 02:09
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You go to university to receive an education. You don't go to get training.
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Feb 27, 2020 02:30
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Higher education is its own reward. (Is it worth all that money spent on it? Hard to say, with the current trends of increasing tuition, larger classes, and fewer contact hours, but it definitely was in the past). Ultimately a 4-year degree should focus on knowledge and skills that will be useful for your entire career and life, with just enough practical stuff to enable learning the lifelong parts effectively. The rest of the practical stuff (like flavour-of-the-month web frameworks) you can learn on the job easily enough thanks to those lifelong skills.
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Feb 27, 2020 02:42
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a hot gujju bhabhi posted:If you're not going to university in order to receive an education that will help you start a career, then what ARE you going there for? What are you paying all that money for? Curiosity? Fun? This happens in law school too. Don’t you remember that scene in My Cousin Vinny? They learn legal analysis in school, and learn the practice of being a lawyer at their first firm.
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Feb 27, 2020 04:23
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lifg posted:I do think source control should be taught in college. Sometime in the very first semester. Professors can use it to grab assignments if they want. But most importantly it would save every student the hell of losing their work, or overwriting it, or ending up in the hell of “this worked six hours ago, why doesn’t it work now?” We had mandatory use of git for submitting coursework and the result was 95% this Fellatio del Toro posted:I'm not really opposed to it but you're just gonna have a bunch of college students that have 4 years of experience pushing a single commit to master the night before a project is due
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Feb 27, 2020 08:11
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The practical reality is that to actually understand why various things are best practices (CI, tests, factoring out common code (but not over doing it)), you need to keep working on the same thing for a significant amount of time and to return to the thing periodically. Given the push to homogenize and standardize education, this isn't happening until programming becomes a regulated trade and this is part of the education requirements.
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Feb 27, 2020 09:12
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lifg posted:I’ve only been using Java for a few months, and I’m convinced that IntelliJ is Java’s killer feature. That's a bit sad of a killer feature when the same IDE basically exists for at least 10 other languages.
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Feb 27, 2020 12:57
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Thoughts - My resume Goes 1.5 Years Freelancing (which I've kind made as a blanket for volunteering for a non profit website, building a few websites for myself, and doing a freelance gig) 4 Month Contract (Laid off) 4 Month Contract (Left for a FT Offer) 8 Months at a bad job ~ 1.8 Years where I am now. I'm thinking of just lumping the 2x 4 month contracts into the 1.5 years. (there's some overlap with positions) Would make my resume look like: 2.1 Years Freelancing/Contracting 8 Months Bad Job 1.8 Years current job Thoughts?
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Feb 29, 2020 04:00
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huhu posted:Thoughts - I think that's reasonable. Freelancing can be quite a catch-all term, and I don't think it's unreasonable to lump very short contract terms under that umbrella. Also not unreasonable from a resume brevity POV which anyone reading it will appreciate.
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Feb 29, 2020 16:06
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huhu posted:Thoughts - Was it the same contracting company or different ones? I think you're right in how to present it, but if it's different companies it might be obvious you're clumping stuff. The ~2 years at the current position does help wash that away though.
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Mar 2, 2020 16:06
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Jumping into this thread real quick: I have a interview tomorrow for a digital IC/RTL design position. At a couple of the places I've interviewed, they have had me meeting with either someone from HR or the recruiter at the very end of the day. What is the purpose of this meeting? I've interviewed with this company before, and as I recall, the recruiter (same guy I'm talking to this time) basically asked what I thought of the company, team, etc. It felt like small talk. Other than expressing my enthusiasm for joining the team, and maybe a question or two about benefits, culture, etc. am I supposed to ask or say anything else here? One of the companies I interviewed at a few weeks ago was a startup, where of course the HR person demanded a number from me regarding my current salary (and despite using all tactics to avoid saying the first number they wouldn't budge). In retrospect I guess I should've just inflated that number significantly, but I'm still not sure how to do this whole negotiation thing, despite reading the negotiating thread.
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Mar 6, 2020 05:48
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