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V. Illych L. posted:the way it would happen outside of a dublin framework would be that every country had a fight on its own terms. probably this would turn ugly a lot of places, much like it actually has irl. however, there would be a chance to actually change the politics of the issue. the evil of the EU here isn't that its policy is necessarily worse than the individual states' policies would be, but that there is no recourse. loving germany tried very hard to challenge this at the height of public mobilisation in much of europe, and they failed miserably because the EU institutional framework is too strong and always defaults to some incredibly nasty default that nobody really bothered to discuss at the time and now is effectively set in stone. it sucks So clearly the situation is hosed. But you are wrong in one thing: the situation is hosed primarily because a good portion of countries are loving racist and refuse to take any refugee if they can help it. And without Dublin, why should they? Without the EU, the borders would simply be closed. Countries in line from Greece to Britain would rather build giant loving walls than allow refugees in. I don't know what you would imagine would happen. Yes, Germany's constitution would guarantee refuge for those who make it there. But the other countries? You think they will just let everyone come over via Greece and be like "whoops, now we gotta house a million refugees"? Borders would be closed, as _has already happened_ outside the EU countries. Walls would be built. Refugees would be returned ("legally they should be in Greece, not our problem") or not, but everyone would feel super mega justified in literally gunning down people at the border if need be. The EU as an institution is much less of an issue than its constituents being racist. Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Feb 26, 2020 |
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Feb 26, 2020 17:14
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Haramstufe Rot posted:So clearly the situation is hosed. But you are wrong in one thing: the situation is hosed primarily because a good portion of countries are loving racist and refuse to take any refugee if they can help it. And without Dublin, why should they? they would have the opportunity to fight and their national authorities wouldn't have the eu to hide behind. the whole point of the EU is to be a united front on stuff like this, and their united front on the refugee crisis amounts to paying off turkey to do crimes against humanity on their behalf while locking up the rest of them in these camps. look, i'm not saying that without the EU everything would be fine. i'm saying that the EU, at best, is the framework for things being entirely and unacceptably bad in a manner which is very emblematic of the more general reasons for the union's hostility to civilisation, decency and humanity, and counterfactuals about how it could be worse are a piss poor excuse for it i'm sure many countries would close their borders. that would be a decision the electorate would have to actively condone. as it is, the electorates of europe can mostly just pretend that this stuff is all very bad but it's far away and Very Complicated so what can you do, those visegrad countries are so mean e. the EU as an institution is directly enabling the racism and channeling opposition to it into bloodless bureaucratic bullshit while allowing people not to take sides because "it is what it is" or whatever. putting machine guns up on our borders is another thing entirely than letting turkey put them up at their borders V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Feb 26, 2020 |
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Feb 26, 2020 17:21
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It's hosed like I say, but I can not imagine a situation where it would be better if individual electorates had their say. I just don't see it.
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Feb 26, 2020 17:32
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Haramstufe Rot posted:It's hosed like I say, but I can not imagine a situation where it would be better if individual electorates had their say. I just don't see it. then the blood is on their hands. at the moment, it's on the EU's. if this is seriously the best it can do, it deserves to die.
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Feb 26, 2020 17:35
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I'll take a unified neoliberal institution than isolationist xenophobic nation-states all itching to go to war with each other once they run out of brown people to kill.
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Feb 26, 2020 17:36
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Junior G-man posted:Given the current loving leadership, I can't think of a single one that would be a loss apart from Portugal. Maybe Sanchez in Spain? About five minutes ago, one of our Ministers has said that Spain will keep on turning back refugees on the Melilla frontier, without processing and without giving them a chance to request asylum.
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Feb 26, 2020 18:03
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What we need is actual leftist movements in the big EU countries, I honestly don't know why they haven't happened yet. Aging populations scared more of the other than of the boot pressing down on them? The right being better (for the moment) at forming grassroots movements? Centrists being more afraid of having to pay a little extra in taxes than MechaHitler 2.0? Who can say really.
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Feb 26, 2020 18:19
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It's people being dumb and not believing there are no centre anymore. The people calling themselves centre are hard-line right and aligned with literal nazis. There's no political spectrum, just human beings against thieves, Nazis, and Nazi collaborators.
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Feb 26, 2020 18:27
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It's because all the cold blooded psychopaths are on the side of capital. Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkY88kvkdvU
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Feb 26, 2020 18:29
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I still call myself a Centrist and don't see myself aligning with neither far right or far left. What I do notice is that the window has shifted so far right that all the sensible people are being called communists. It's insane. For the record, I am willing to pay higher taxes and think countries should cooperate to fix the environment and help those in need. I just don't want anyone to violently die, whether it's minorities or the rich. Is that such an unreasonable position to hold? AceOfFlames fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Feb 26, 2020 |
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Feb 26, 2020 18:30
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An insane mind posted:What we need is actual leftist movements in the big EU countries, I honestly don't know why they haven't happened yet. Aging populations scared more of the other than of the boot pressing down on them? The right being better (for the moment) at forming grassroots movements? Centrists being more afraid of having to pay a little extra in taxes than MechaHitler 2.0? Honestly sometimes I think it's because most of the continent doesn't have duopolies for political parties. I mean, 99% of the time I'm in favour of that because it allows more refined political expression than blue or red, but it allows those of us who are left to be 10% of the vote, most of the melty fuckers to vote SocDem, most of the middle bits etc - you never have that forced migration to the left that you can get in the UK or US.
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Feb 26, 2020 18:33
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That's depressing. But if sensible people are now communists to the 'centrists' how did that happen? Like, I see a lot of rightwing people in my town spouting adherence to the bible and a 'return to values' but somehow this never seems to include 'love and cherish your fellow man' or 'if we all benefit as a species that's better than FYGM'. Is that just capitalism in overdrive? As in, monied intrests doing what monied interests does?
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Feb 26, 2020 18:35
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Fat Samurai posted:About five minutes ago, one of our Ministers has said that Spain will keep on turning back refugees on the Melilla frontier, without processing and without giving them a chance to request asylum. There are lile 23 walls of different orientation and size surrounding melila. Its to wear down the mass of immigrants that rush walls. So by the time you get to wall 23 theres few left.
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Feb 26, 2020 19:08
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AceOfFlames posted:I still call myself a Centrist and don't see myself aligning with neither far right or far left. What I do notice is that the window has shifted so far right that all the sensible people are being called communists. It's insane. *Gestures at everything* Yes. If we promise to kill the rich in a very humane way will you join? Like, if you look at the problem of climate change alone it will take such a herculean, transformative effort it will make war economies look like laissez-faire paradises.
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Feb 26, 2020 20:17
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Like, if you look at the problem of climate change alone it will take such a herculean, transformative effort it will make war economies look like laissez-faire paradises. It won't because any attempt at legislating such an effort will be brutally and mercilessly crushed. I'd like to be wrong about that though.
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Feb 26, 2020 20:25
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lol where do you see a radical left tendency even coming from? the unions are fighting rearguard actions all over the place and are mostly heavily invested in existing crappy neoliberal parties with the possible exception of the CGT in france who are real comrades in britain and the US it was driven by younger, energised people who've taken over major parties but seem to have very limited staying power. we could try to organise the precariat i guess? good luck getting homeowners to make common cause with them if we get another real financial collapse soon and sectors that are now secure start to feel the squeeze, there's a shot, but atm hardly anyone accepts solidarity as a motivation for anything. plus, if a genuinely left-wing party were to take power, their ability to take significant action would be choked out by the EU before they even took office
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Feb 26, 2020 20:29
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V. Illych L. posted:plus, if a genuinely left-wing party were to take power, their ability to take significant action would be choked out by the EU before they even took office As seen in Greece. So genuine left-wing parties need to take power simultaneously in all EU countries.
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Feb 27, 2020 10:43
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Cat Mattress posted:As seen in Greece. So genuine left-wing parties need to take power simultaneously in all EU countries. I want this, oh how I want this. I just want it to be actually left parties not those mealy mouthed ones that jump on the anti-immigration train to get votes.
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Feb 27, 2020 10:51
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yeah, exactly. which, even at the height of electoral socialism, has never happened
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Feb 27, 2020 10:52
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:There are lile 23 walls of different orientation and size surrounding melila. Its to wear down the mass of immigrants that rush walls. So by the time you get to wall 23 theres few left. Also, the EU has said that this is cool and good.
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Feb 27, 2020 11:01
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V. Illych L. posted:yeah, exactly. which, even at the height of electoral socialism, has never happened People attacked Lexit for being too difficult when Remain and reform is Lexit but in several different countries at the same time.
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Feb 27, 2020 11:08
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Cat Mattress posted:As seen in Greece. So genuine left-wing parties need to take power simultaneously in all EU countries. And that only happened in extraordinary circumstances where all the disparate strands of Greek leftism actually managed to band together for 5 minutes, and PASOK was an empty husk and everyone else was discredited. namesake posted:People attacked Lexit for being too difficult when Remain and reform is Lexit but in several different countries at the same time. Eh, you don't need socialist govts in all EU 27 Member States, you need it in Germany +1 big one, probably Italy or preferably France. The rest tend to whine but follow when those guys take charge - but you'd need really powerful leaders there who are willing to go the distance and not surrender during their first all-night Council meetings.
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Feb 27, 2020 11:49
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Speaking of the migrant camps, there was a planned expansion of the migrant camps on the islands. Islanders are constantly protesting the camps (a mixture of racism and reaction to the appaling conditions there), so to maintain peace the government sent the riot police to Chios and Lesbos three days ago. Which prompted clashes between protesters on the islands and the riot police. Dozens of police and protesters injured, two cops took injuries from hunting rifles, and some protesters broke into one of the hotels that was housing the riot police and started beating them up and trashing their poo poo. Yesterday the government announced that they are pulling the riot police from the islands.
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Feb 27, 2020 12:01
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YF-23 posted:
Next step being the army?
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Feb 27, 2020 12:14
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V. Illych L. posted:this exact sort of thing is the reason the EU is so loving awful, the default thing to do is always maximum neoliberalism and it's basically impossible not to do the default. how these idiots managed to make a multinational behemoth so simultaneously inflexible and weak is a question for the ages, loving morons bet the continent on the end of history in a fit of hubris the likes of which has never been seen and now it's falling apart around us I think the camps are a physical manifestation of the hypocrisy resulting from the gap between liberalism's stated values and the actions liberals choose to take. So liberalism is founded on universal principles (universal human rights, self-evident truths, all men are created equal etc etc) which also means our codified laws protecting people from the state tend not to make any difference between citizens and non-citizens. So for example, we hold that all children have a right to education. And further we hold that the state is obligated to provide that education to all children within its jurisdiction, regardless of nationality, race, religion, sex, sexual orientation etc etc. Liberalism can even go so far as to hold states which do not meet enough of these kinds of obligations as wholly illegitimate, which was the philosophical basis for the liberal revolutions of the 18th and 19th century. However in practice, ask the average American and don't be surprised if you learn that they think the US constitution only applies to US citizens. In practice, we are in Europe absolutely denying education to children based on their origin.* There's obviously no moral justification for this, but note that there is also no philosophical justification within liberalism for this either. Yet we do this anyway. In my opinion, this leads to a lot of dissonance which can be resolved one of two ways, you can either decide that we must change our actions, or you can change your worldview away from one based on liberal values and towards one that can justify this kind of two-tiered system. Such other value systems are readily available in the philosophical traditions of nationalism and fascism. So it should be no wonder that the more our liberal institutions keep reneging on their stated values and implementing policies directly at odds with those values, the more we see people abandon the belief system underpinning those stated values. What I'm saying is, the lovely, immoral policy came first, the rise in nationalism and fascism followed, not the other way around. Furthermore it goes back to the origin of socialism. The ideals of say, the French revolution (Liberté, egalité, fraternité) are still also my ideals, even though the French revolution was a liberal revolution and I am a socialist. The main critique of liberalism here is not that it's stated goals or values were wrong, but that it has failed to deliver on them. So just as nationalism and fascism can rise from the failure of liberalism, so can socialism. The key part is whether we can convince people that liberalism' s methods are illegitimate before the right wing can convince people that liberalism' s goals and values are illegitimate. *As an aside, I'm very curious what would happen if cases suing Greece, or even better, EU institutions, on these lines end up in front of EU courts.
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Feb 27, 2020 12:27
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YF-23 posted:Speaking of the migrant camps, there was a planned expansion of the migrant camps on the islands. Islanders are constantly protesting the camps (a mixture of racism and reaction to the appaling conditions there), so to maintain peace the government sent the riot police to Chios and Lesbos three days ago. Which prompted clashes between protesters on the islands and the riot police. Dozens of police and protesters injured, two cops took injuries from hunting rifles, and some protesters broke into one of the hotels that was housing the riot police and started beating them up and trashing their poo poo. tbh i can't blame the locals for protesting, it must be incredibly frustrating to see your home turned into a dumping ground for those unwanted by everyone else on top of any other concerns, be they humanitarian or otherwise
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Feb 27, 2020 12:27
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Also for context I want to point out that anyone with a million euros can just buy Maltese citizenship and get an EU passport that way. And this has been going on for years. And this Russian-Dutch absolute motherfucker who is a professor at a Dutch university has been getting paid to extensively advise the Maltese government on how best to do this. The same Maltese government that is notoriously corrupt and carbombs journalists that expose that. So never forget that classism is actually a HUGE part in any EU migration debate. Because all this bullshit politicians will tell you about moral hazards and we can't just let anyone in flat out stops applying once you have money. Doesn't matter where the money came from. Doesn't matter where you are from. You got money, you're in.
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Feb 27, 2020 12:38
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V. Illych L. posted:they would have the opportunity to fight and their national authorities wouldn't have the eu to hide behind. the whole point of the EU is to be a united front on stuff like this, and their united front on the refugee crisis amounts to paying off turkey to do crimes against humanity on their behalf while locking up the rest of them in these camps. The function of the EU in this matter is to make the evil as banal as possible.
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Feb 27, 2020 12:44
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Orange Devil posted:Also for context I want to point out that anyone with a million euros can just buy Maltese citizenship and get an EU passport that way. Cyprus, too, right? Or has the policy changed?
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Feb 27, 2020 16:04
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Feb 27, 2020 16:17
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Wait what, as long as you're rich...you can buy citizenship? Holy gently caress, there went my last vestiges of a just world.
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Feb 27, 2020 16:20
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An insane mind posted:Wait what, as long as you're rich...you can buy citizenship? Holy gently caress, there went my last vestiges of a just world. of course. it makes a lot of sense from the perspective of contemporary ideology, actually - most of the social disruption is eliminated by making it unaffordable to the vast majority and you make pretty sure that the person in question is going to be a net gain for the country in terms of expenditure.
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Feb 27, 2020 16:25
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An insane mind posted:Wait what, as long as you're rich...you can buy citizenship? Holy gently caress, there went my last vestiges of a just world. one thing to note is that the majority of these countries introduced that option only in the last ten years.
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Feb 27, 2020 16:26
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really, what are you, some kind of reactionary nationalist? think of the appropriately means-tested social programmes this sort of thing helps fund
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Feb 27, 2020 16:26
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btw you can also join the french foreign legion and apply for citizenship after five years lol
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Feb 27, 2020 16:30
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How many citizenships could Jeff Bezos buy.
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Feb 27, 2020 16:56
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mike12345 posted:btw you can also join the french foreign legion and apply for citizenship after five years lol tbf this does genuinely involve putting your life on the line in a lovely war zone so i can't see the wealthy of the world going for it
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Feb 27, 2020 16:57
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Man why would you pay those crazy Irish or French investment rates when Latvia is practically giving EU citizenship away.
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Feb 27, 2020 16:58
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mike12345 posted:one thing to note is that the majority of these countries introduced that option only in the last ten years. UK and US leading the world in civilisation and justice, as always.
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Feb 27, 2020 16:59
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lemonadesweetheart posted:How many citizenships could Jeff Bezos buy. lol at his level every government in the world would give it to him if he asks
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Feb 27, 2020 17:00
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