|
NO redeeming Picard because of one callous act? We are all well and truly hosed if so. I won't be changing your mind, Q
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 22:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 20:41 |
|
|
I wish they just spent an episode on what happened on that day when the uhh, synthetics?, attacked Mars and made everyone not want to help the Romulans. It seems a lot more interesting than that episode on dusty wild west planet, or on the space dingy bar planet. I think it would also make Starfleet AND Picards decisions/viewpoints a lot more clear.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 22:24
|
|
|
The Bloop posted:NO redeeming Picard because of one callous act? To me it's not a simple callous act because it hits close to home. Someone that could find victory in that situation has no soul. It's personal, so I get why I'm probably the only one feeling that way.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 22:39
|
|
|
Lizard Combatant posted:To go back to a discussion I had with someone (and I apologise for forgetting who) about Picard feeling like the avatar for Old Trek in this show, but why is he shown to be the only person in the Federation who gave a poo poo and everyone else just presumably gave up along with him? Raffi gives up too, and sure we see that she suffered for it. But the Federation must be home to billions of citizens and officers. No one else stepped up? The existing evacuation fleet that had already started moving people didn't say "to hell with our orders" and keep working? Or was it just a job to them and no one actually cared? So this is what season 1 showrunner Michael Chabon had to say about a similar question on instagram today (h/t reddit:) https://www.instagram.com/stories/michael.chabon/ posted:"Federation downfall?" What Federation downfall? The Federation is still very much alive and well and home to trillions (quadrillions?) of safe, housed, fed, educated citizens with the potential to lead fulfilling lives. There was a crisis 15 years ago, in the wake of the costly Dominion War and the Romulan emergency, which had a negative impact on the lives of many people, including most of our principal characters, in one way or another, during which Starfleet (and by extension the Federation) did not acquit itself well - in Picard's eyes. From Admiral Clancy's viewpoint, which is likely the mainstream view, Picard's attitude was unrealistic, quixotic, and even dangerous. She may be right! They may both be right, and both wrong. But that was fifteen years ago, and the Federation is still going strong. Perhaps in the eyes of some it lost its luster, its air of invulnerability, its claim to the moral high ground, a process that began during DS9 times. That is hardly a "downfall", though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 22:52
|
|
|
You know your name would really work on this show "We travelled to Vashti to fight the Zhat Vash, all we found was Ash Panash"
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 22:54
|
|
|
I just want to chime in that I like the way the designed the Borg cube interiors with the cosntantly-changing walls and things floating around. The Voyager look was pretty neat for its time but it was a little too "haunted house" for my tastes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 22:55
|
|
|
I am having a hard time keeping all of the names straight. Especially with all the Romulan names/organizations sounding so similar and nonsensical. Though I'll never forget the name Vajazzle. That is just too drat silly to forget. Probably not the best name for the big bad of the week who tortures people for their Borg parts, but whatever.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 22:57
|
|
|
ashpanash posted:So this is what season 1 showrunner Michael Chabon had to say about a similar question on instagram today (h/t reddit:) Thanks for sharing that. That's a point I have been thinking of while watching the recent RLM review of Picard.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 22:57
|
|
|
ashpanash posted:So this is what season 1 showrunner Michael Chabon had to say about a similar question on instagram today (h/t reddit:) This is pretty much what I gathered from what was shown. I'm starting to appreciate more that this is the first Trek show in a while that hasn't been about the saga of Federation. The Federation in Picard is strictly backdrop.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 22:58
|
|
|
ashpanash posted:So this is what season 1 showrunner Michael Chabon had to say about a similar question on instagram today (h/t reddit:) quote:From Admiral Clancy's viewpoint, which is likely the mainstream view, Picard's attitude was unrealistic, quixotic, and even dangerous. She may be right! They may both be right, and both wrong. I think I'm going to stop
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 23:25
|
|
|
ashpanash posted:So this is what season 1 showrunner Michael Chabon had to say about a similar question on instagram today (h/t reddit:) Oh no, I don't care for that at all. The rot had started before the attack even happened, yes the show tells us that much (species who'd rather withdraw entirely than help the Romulans) and I can't see that was an organic progression of Federation even if they did just try to pin it all on space 9/11. I didn't say it was the downfall of the Federation, and I think he's missing what people are unsure about. Not that the Federation doesn't still function but that they abandoned their core ideals of empathy and compassion. Mainstream view my rear end, that doesn't come close to handwaving it away. And what's a minority in multi-trillions? A poo poo load. I'm saying if they want to draw modern parallels then the Federation should have experienced some serious internal turmoil of which there appears to be no evidence. So to circle back: Lizard Combatant posted:Like an unrealistic premise of the entire plight of a species living or dying on the whims of one man as a means to make a point is one thing, but if you're not using his character as a personification to deconstruct or critique the old show then it all feels downright silly or cynical in the extreme. And if he is that avatar, what is the show trying to say about the Old Federation? Cause I don't know. So it's silly or cynical in the extreme then, is it Chabon?
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 23:26
|
|
|
Yeah, while I understand what Chabon is going for, some of that bloated 3 hour setup should have been put towards exploring what happened with the Federation during this crisis in order to both justify the time that was spent, and to justify what Chabon is saying here. Because I think there is too much being taken for granted.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 23:30
|
|
|
I don't think this show needed a ton of exposition about federation politics that isn't relevant to our main characters or the story they are telling.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 23:36
|
|
|
marktheando posted:I don't think this show needed a ton of exposition about federation politics that isn't relevant to our main characters or the story they are telling. Agreed. (And I'm usually a massive nerd for pointless world-building exposition)
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 23:39
|
|
|
marktheando posted:I don't think this show needed a ton of exposition about federation politics that isn't relevant to our main characters or the story they are telling. It is the story they're telling. And if it truly isn't, then sorry but I don't really give a poo poo about sibling spies or the elfling who doth never tell a lie. The show spends so much time in flashback because so much of the story is actually in the past. But it's glossing over the parts that are inconvenient. Until this week all we've seen is the fallout of "what if Federation did something lovely" which, surprise surprise, is that things would be lovely for a lot of people. How can you learn from your mistakes if you don't understand how or why they were made? What message are we supposed to take from this? If people want me to shut up about this then I will, I've said my piece.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 23:55
|
|
|
CaptainSkinny posted:To me it's not a simple callous act because it hits close to home. Someone that could find victory in that situation has no soul. It's personal, so I get why I'm probably the only one feeling that way. It's totally more than a simple callous act. marktheando posted:I don't think this show needed a ton of exposition about federation politics that isn't relevant to our main characters or the story they are telling. Coulda been a better use of a couple episodes though rather than what we got in that time.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2020 23:57
|
|
|
Lizard Combatant posted:It is the story they're telling. No offense, but it sounds like you're just angry because they are not telling the story you specifically wanted to see. Which is fine, I guess, but it's not necessarily a failing on the show's part. For a lot of people, Star Trek is about the characters, sci-fi, and/or exploring human nature, not necessarily the trials of its fictitious institutions.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 00:40
|
|
|
Drink-Mix Man posted:No offense, but it sounds like you're just angry because they are not telling the story you specifically wanted to see. Which is fine, I guess, but it's not necessarily a failing on the show's part. For a lot of people, Star Trek is about the characters, sci-fi, and/or exploring human nature, not necessarily the trials of its fictitious institutions. I think he has a point, because part of the story they are trying to tell (whether they like it or not) is "What happened that caused the Federation to act this way," and the reason that this matters is because the show is called "Star Trek." While they absolutely get a boost to viewership and interest by using the Star Trek name, the downside of that is that there has to be a legitimate attempt to build on what came before. At least, if the show wants to fire on all cylinders. To be absolutely clear - a better explanation and more exposition on what kind of crisis the Federation was going through would not make the show any better. Right now the show has other, larger problems more to do with storytelling. All the explanation would do is blunt a certain area of criticism - which would no doubt be replaced by something else. (It's a new Star Trek, it's the law that it will be hated.)
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 00:53
|
|
|
ashpanash posted:I think he has a point, because part of the story they are trying to tell (whether they like it or not) is "What happened that caused the Federation to act this way," and the reason that this matters is because the show is called "Star Trek." While they absolutely get a boost to viewership and interest by using the Star Trek name, the downside of that is that there has to be a legitimate attempt to build on what came before. At least, if the show wants to fire on all cylinders. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 00:55
|
|
|
Star Trek Picard ends up proving him right in the end. What a timeline.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 01:07
|
|
|
Lizard Combatant posted:Like an unrealistic premise of the entire plight of a species living or dying on the whims of one man as a means to make a point is one thing, but if you're not using his character as a personification to deconstruct or critique the old show then it all feels downright silly or cynical in the extreme. And if he is that avatar, what is the show trying to say about the Old Federation? Cause I don't know. I'd also add that I spend most of the Romulan scenes wondering wtf has happened to the rest of the Romulan empire. Did it collapse entirely following the supernova? That would seem like a big deal if so, but no one mentions it and we at least see that some kind of Romulan government controls the borg cube (which seems like something other races would want to take to study its secrets if the Romulans were helpless), and the admiral in this ep is worried about offending them. But if the Romulans are still a power why is the neutral zone no longer needed? Why do neither the Romulans or the Federation offer peacekeeping in the former neutral zone on their borders? If anything the Romulans should hate the Federation even more, making the neutral zone between them all the more vital. Why doesn't the Romulan state help/relocate the Romulans on Vashti or any other "refugee planets", or why don't those refugees travel back to core Romulan planets? It would seem like a planet full of Romulans in the neutral zone would be an ideal opportunity to annex it, or they could at least give them some infrastructure. Why is the Senator who loses his head pissed off at Picard rather than the Romulan state? To what extent if any did the Romulans evacuate their own planets and why are people not blaming them for the people who could not be saved rather than Picard?
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 01:10
|
|
|
This all happened right after the Dominon War, right, which saw the invasion of multiple Federation planets, including the homeworld of some Federation species, like the Betazed and Benzar, as well as an enormous death count. I can sort of see, even before the Mars attack, a lot of Federation planets and citizens say, "Maybe we can not be the big drat heroes for once and let somebody else save the day, while we deal with the immense costs of rebuilding and mourning our dead?"quote:Why is the Senator who loses his head pissed off at Picard rather than the Romulan state? To what extent if any did the Romulans evacuate their own planets and why are people not blaming them for the people who could not be saved rather than Picard? They're pissed at Picard and the Federation because the Federation tried to help them, which destroyed their pride. Romulans are xenophobic supremacists. For the Romulan government to agree to Federation help and then have the evacuation collapse anyway, means the Romulans sold their soul to the Federation and still let them destroy them. Epicurius fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Feb 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 01:11
|
|
|
This trial is ongoing and unless one of them dies during the series this better be how it ends
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 01:15
|
|
|
Lizard Combatant posted:It is the story they're telling. The story they are telling is Picard and pals experience of this, not the wider Federation. Were the public protesting against this choice, or were they on board? I’m sure there was much discussion and debate, and all kinds of things happened, but it doesn’t really impact on Picards experience. As far as how and why Fed did yet another lovely thing in their long history of doing lovely things, I’m sure we will get into that as the conspiracy stuff unravels.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 01:16
|
|
|
Drink-Mix Man posted:No offense, but it sounds like you're just angry because they are not telling the story you specifically wanted to see. Which is fine, I guess, but it's not necessarily a failing on the show's part. For a lot of people, Star Trek is about the characters, sci-fi, and/or exploring human nature, not necessarily the trials of its fictitious institutions. Hey I didn't make up the premise, is it so much to expect that it feels coherent or is something they're willing to actually explore? I'm not after a history lesson or anything. I'm not angry, just a bit frustrated. Is a path to atonement for the Federation on the table or is that just backdrop? Is that even a relevant question? I don't know what the stakes are in this show beyond "saving Soji" because everything is so shrouded in mystery. I'll wait to see what the show ends up having to say. But if we're allowed to spitball endlessly about possible plot twists and character motivations, I think similarly thinking about what they're saying in terms of ideology, theme and messaging are just as relevant topics in Star Trek of all things. e: anyway, I'm gonna peace out for a while. It's been several long weeks of work lately and this thread has helped pass the time otherwise spent watching render bars and exports. I'm gonna go enjoy my weekend for a change. Stay contentious y'all. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Feb 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 01:19
|
|
|
marktheando posted:The story they are telling is Picard and pals experience of this, not the wider Federation. Were the public protesting against this choice, or were they on board? I’m sure there was much discussion and debate, and all kinds of things happened, but it doesn’t really impact on Picards experience. The story they're trying to tell is a really lovely version of Firefly where they keep getting away from Picard because they desperately want to drip feed the Big Plot. I think the reason people are interested in the federation and all that stuff is because that's the actual potentially interesting part of what's going on, not a rag-tag team of half-characters with their elf ninja doing hijinks. Even Picard himself isn't /that/ interesting when he's not, you know, interacting with the things that are Star Trek- borg reclamation and synths and data, that's actually interesting. Raffi doing drugs or Elnor telling a joke or Rios.. i don't know really aren't. As I said before, when the show actually does get into Picard's experience in relation to Star Trek things and not Elnor, it's not too bad. I actually kinda like him with his Tal Shiar friends, that seemed interesting. Unfortunately there are a lot of scenes without Picard(honestly, the whole thing with him and Hugh would probably have worked better had that been the first time we saw the cube), and especially in the beginning we had tons of emotional scenes with people Picard knows far better than the audience while the show spun its wheels.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 01:38
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:I am having a hard time keeping all of the names straight. Especially with all the Romulan names/organizations sounding so similar and nonsensical. It really throws me off that step-bro Romulan, Rios, and Disco Spock are like the drat Jonas brothers. Panzeh posted:I actually kinda like him with his Tal Shiar friends, that seemed interesting. Unfortunately there are a lot of scenes without Picard(honestly, the whole thing with him and Hugh would probably have worked better had that been the first time we saw the cube), and especially in the beginning we had tons of emotional scenes with people Picard knows far better than the audience while the show spun its wheels. That early stuff kind of reminds me of picking up a videogame title in the middle of a franchise or a sequel that wasn't originally planned. Gotta catch up new players, but they also gotta introduce a bunch of new unresolved stuff because they mostly wrapped it all up the first time.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 02:08
|
|
|
Another thing... maybe I'm just not used to modern TV, but I count at least 16 producers listed in the opening credits. What do all of these people do? What are their work days like? I am genuinely curious.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 02:15
|
|
|
I watch with the audio-narration thing turned on, and on top of the amusement of hearing the abstract shapes and graphics described in plain language, the ending has the narrator reading out every producer's name and it seems like a Tim & Eric sketch with how long it goes on. I don't know all what you actually have to be doing to qualify for a producer credit, but my general idea of a producer is they're kind of the boss who, while not calling the shots directly, basically get to approve or decline things to a degree their desires impact how and what everyone else can make. Just seems like on the side of people on the ground actually making and writing all this stuff, having to go through one producer for approval has got to be a pain... when you have a whole goddamn army of producers, I can't imagine anything could ever get through unscathed. Like playing "Telephone" but all the kids have their own funny thing they want to say instead of whatever was originally told to them, regardless of how much or little they understood it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 02:21
|
|
|
One of them is Stewart, one is a Roddenberry descendent, etc. Some of the exec producers don't have a lot of day to day responsibility but are there for money, or just for control over the franchise (i.e. Roddenberry)
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 02:40
|
|
|
Khanstant posted:I watch with the audio-narration thing turned on, and on top of the amusement of hearing the abstract shapes and graphics described in plain language, the ending has the narrator reading out every producer's name and it seems like a Tim & Eric sketch with how long it goes on. Probably most of those producers don't actually do anything and are just get the credit for contractural or company politics reasons. Like for example Fuller was still credited as producer for a bunch of Discovery episodes after he was long gone. Actors, writers, IP owners, and various suits often get producer credits that are pretty meaningless. But yeah there will be at least one who is like you describe.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 02:43
|
|
|
Drink-Mix Man posted:I just want to chime in that I like the way the designed the Borg cube interiors with the cosntantly-changing walls and things floating around. The Voyager look was pretty neat for its time but it was a little too "haunted house" for my tastes.  The design is great. I like the idea that the borg cube is modular and can rearrange itself internally to best suit the situation.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 02:57
|
|
|
Also this show is doing a way better job of making the Borg sort of scary than the franchise has in years, just by virtue of "less is more."
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 03:07
|
|
|
Kenneth Mitchell, who played a bunch of Klingons on Disco was diagnosed with ALS.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 03:19
|
|
|
drat that sucks. How do they convert American Sign Language to Klingon Sign Language?
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 03:59
|
|
|
Not with a dyslexic translator?
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 04:02
|
|
|
Shut up and JAM! posted:drat that sucks. How do they convert American Sign Language to Klingon Sign Language? It's Lou Gherig's disease
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 05:47
|
|
|
I liked the scene where Soji I do think there has to be some kind of telepathy or mystical stuff at play, though. I don't think plain old meditation would have worked that well on her very first try. After all, Vulcans do all sorts of weird psionic stuff, so it makes sense that Romulans would have things that are at least a bit similar. Maybe the lanterns or those lovely wooden floor panels are psychically charged? There's precedent in Trek for psionic objects (Stone of Gol, the Bajoran Orbs, etc), and also for psychic stuff working on robots (Spock once mind-melded with Nomad).
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 06:19
|
|
|
I rather enjoyed the callback to the spacial trajector. I am an absolute sucker for continuity nuggets. (I'm also rewatching voyager for the first time since i was a kid)
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 13:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 20:41 |
|
|
Not sure if anyone talked about this over the last few pages but the scene where Picard is Googling Borg stuff and his face is superimposed with that of Locutus was a loving cracker shot.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2020 14:38
|
|
