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I like Jodie Whittaker as the Doctor, but like most of nuWho, the series just didn't grab me even after watching her first two or three episodes. So in a way I'm kind of glad I didn't continue watching, because this sort of idiotic retcon you guys are describing would have made my eyes roll so hard they'd pop out the back of my head.
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Mar 2, 2020 03:01
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I like Jodie Whittaker as the Doctor, but like most of nuWho, the series just didn't grab me even after watching her first two or three episodes. So in a way I'm kind of glad I didn't continue watching, because this sort of idiotic retcon you guys are describing would have made my eyes roll so hard they'd pop out the back of my head. I almost gave up after the first two episodes this series and only came back because people in the thread were saying that Orphan 55 was one of the worst episodes they'd ever seen (they were completely wrong) and I wanted to know what could possibly be worse than Spyfall. I skipped out on about half of the episodes this series and feel no urge to go back through them. I'm only considering watching the finale because it sounds so loving bad. Like, how poo poo do you have to be to take the series finale the show was parodying like two seasons ago and play it straight? I really hate that Doctor Who is just another dumb sci-fi show now.
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Mar 2, 2020 03:07
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This is a silly thing to nitpick but I'm mad at the episode so I'm gonna pick at this too - I don't think calling this fanfiction or Chibnall a fanfiction writer is fair. People write fanfic to celebrate characters and settings they love or to fix things that suck about a show they otherwise love. I'd be very surprised if anyone is writing stories about the Doctor actually being a super special being from another universe who all of time lord society is based on - who wants that? This kind of bullshit happens when someone has control over "canon" and is more interested in shaking things up just because they can than exploring a setting. Anyway when the old guy ran out and announced that this was all his fault I was terrified that he was gonna say he was the explorer Gallifreyan who found the timeless child and is basically the Doctor's parent so I guess I am at least relieved that didn't happen.
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Mar 2, 2020 03:32
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I still want to know how the Master somehow took on all of the Time Lords and won. That feels like a huge plothole.
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Mar 2, 2020 03:35
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I wasn't all too happy but I'm glad the show is actually making choices and taking chances instead of just resetting itself and spinning it's wheels.
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Mar 2, 2020 03:39
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Funny how when you discover a big loving portal to another dimension or universe you turn around and don't loving visit it ever again. And for loving TIME LORDS, those who can travel ANYWHERE in SPACE AND TIME, don't go back and watch their own loving history. And the best place to hide the cover up is the central computer most of them can loving access. Also, how did the Master kill Time Lords but they could regenerate still afterwards?
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Mar 2, 2020 03:48
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Mokinokaro posted:I still want to know how the Master somehow took on all of the Time Lords and won. That feels like a huge plothole. You know Off screen
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Mar 2, 2020 03:56
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Jerusalem posted:My pick is that Jo Martin's Doctor is from between 2-3, that this "Division" sent her on missions (AFTER remaining 2 for awhile and doing The Two Doctors The point seems to be that the Doctor is the source of all the stories, which she is, so the Time Lords only exist because of her. Arguably, this episode just made every piece of Doctor Who fiction potentially canon. Oddly, I'm happier with that than with the episode proper. We have the Doctor virtually silenced and utterly sidelined for two-thirds of the episode, and then the big run up to the big save the day speech is the Doctor replicating "I'm gonna push this button?" And then instead of coming up with a better brilliant plan, she simply gets bailed out by someone else? Is Jodie's Doctor ever going to be allowed to actually win by defeating a bad guy? For instance: two episodes ago we see the Cyberium avoiding Mr. Last of the, and the Doctor has to virtually force it into him. We're told in both instances that it can't leave its host unless the host dies. Let's see the Doctor disprove that, by showing up, refusing to press the button, and then convincing the Cyberium that its alliance with the Master means not the dominance of the Cyber race, but its absolute destruction. That the imperative of the Cybermen, their prime directive, is to survive, and yet the Master wants to die. It could feel that at the moment when she was about to press the button. Turn the Cyberium against the Master, as we see it rush out of him, and then we see the Cyber Lords turn on each other or on the Master as the Doctor flees. Have the Doctor dump the Death particle somewhere. Maybe it turns into the Fendahl or something, why not, but dump in off-screen in a line and proceed. And the idea that the Ireland thing was being projected into the Doctor's mind out of the Matrix, but the show gives us no on-screen evidence that the Doctor's aware of one second of it during the time it's being beamed into her head? Idiocy. Have her react on a few occasions and maybe even speculate someone is beaming this stuff into her head! If people are upset now, what are they going to think when Yaz ends up "dying" by passing through into an alternate universe and we see her emerge from a gateway as the Timeless Child? (I probably hope this doesn't happen, but I'm not 100% sure.) I'll say this: the show's gotten unpredictable. I'm hoping that the Doctor gets rescued from prison by revolutionary Daleks who want her help. After all, she's got a great win/loss ratio in fights with the Daleks.
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Mar 2, 2020 04:01
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) but she didn't like that they were military oriented and used the chameleon arch to turn human and hide from them, and that eventually after meeting 13 she gets caught up with them again and they wipe her memory, regenerate her into 3 and dump her on earth for Spearhead from Space. The Timeless Child or whatever story is true but it's the Master and he's furious that he was used as an experiment and is trying to get revenge on all the Time Lords.
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He had a shrinking device. It would have been cool if he revealed a fuckton of miniaturized Gallifreyians like a massive Diorama. And hands its to the cybermen, who re-enlarge the nearest few and start to assimilate them. Camera pans away while mulitple screams and industrial sawing sounds are heard. gently caress, make me a writer.
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Mar 2, 2020 04:04
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At least now Gallifrey has been finally, completely destroyed for good so we don't have to wonder any more if it's coming back. But it seems like next year we're going to have the stupidly ominously named the Division which is black ops or Section 31 or whatever and I don't see how it won't be bad. And hey, the first black Doctor is either their willing accomplice or their amnesiac servant, at least until her white male companion saves her by also erasing her memory and then marrying her. Feels like the past few episodes have had more examples of the protagonists standing by without trying to stop the villains. It's one thing for your characters not to use guns but it's something else when they just stand there allowing the villains to do whatever they want. My eyes were past the point of rolling when the guy runs in to sacrifice himself for the Doctor.
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Mar 2, 2020 04:09
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You know aside from the poo poo that made no sense at all, that episode had a lot of good constituent parts.
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Mar 2, 2020 04:12
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Action Jacktion posted:But it seems like next year we're going to have the stupidly ominously named the Division which is black ops or Section 31 or whatever and I don't see how it won't be bad. Lore retcon stuff I can roll my eyes at and know it'll be forgotten over time if its dumb enough, but this I'm really dreading.
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Mar 2, 2020 04:14
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Yeah it really does feel like more than most doctors 13 just gives up a lot and is saved by some outside circumstance. Maybe it's confirmation bias but I'm not dedicated enough to go through the episodes and actually count.
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Mar 2, 2020 04:15
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Remember when many of us were worried it'd be something silly like the escaping humans became the Time Lords and that would be ridiculous? Yeah, good times... Someone referred above to the insanity of the 8th Doctor novels, that stuff was miles above this. Oof, that pun was really unintended, noticed it after I typed it, but I'm keeping it in.
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Mar 2, 2020 04:25
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Yeah, that was bad, can we get a redo?
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Mar 2, 2020 04:40
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Action Jacktion posted:But it seems like next year You mean "in three years." And honestly, good riddance. Just let the show lie fallow if this is the dreck that's going to come of it.
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Mar 2, 2020 04:47
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congrats to all those kids from that montage who are technically new versions of the Doctor -- the club got a lot bigger today
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Mar 2, 2020 04:59
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I feel like this should have ended with The Doctor actually broken by all this. She's become increasingly powerless and out of the loop and this is the poo poo that sends her over the edge. Next season would be a depressed isolated Doctor getting her groove back. The Judoon suddenly appearing and locking her in prison after everything was almost slapstick.
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Mar 2, 2020 05:07
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This show sucks now
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Mar 2, 2020 05:11
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Action Jacktion posted:At least now Gallifrey has been finally, completely destroyed for good so we don't have to wonder any more if it's coming back. Next Episode: Gallifrey!
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Mar 2, 2020 05:13
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When I see 100+ new posts in the Doctor Who thread, I know something bad has happened. And I’m right again!
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Mar 2, 2020 06:14
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oof. guess i'll watch this next weekend then.
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Mar 2, 2020 06:34
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In addition, nobody in this thread has yet brought up the theme tune showing up when the Doctor is blowing the mind of the matrix, something I thought we got rid of in the 80's.
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Mar 2, 2020 06:36
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hahah, what the hell? I do not understand why the Doctor would be fine with the murder of all the other Time Lords and regular citizens because apparently she was the origins of regeneration. What massive crime was that? Also the Master created Necrons from Warhammer 40k, they even had the funny fins on their heads 
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Mar 2, 2020 07:05
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So how many examples of bad fanwank can we check off? Main character is Really Super Special & Every Thing You Know Is a Lie are two most obvious ones. Last of the Time Lords & Now Two Enemies are combined in One is in there too.
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Mar 2, 2020 07:10
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I guess I'm a bad Doctor Who fan because I enjoyed that episode and didn't dislike any of the poo poo they added to the Doctor's background, to the lore of the Time Lords or the Cyber Masters. I can honestly say I was entertained.
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Mar 2, 2020 07:18
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I'm glad you liked it 
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Mar 2, 2020 07:25
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I’m way behind on the season so I haven’t watched the finale yet, but it’s so rare to see a nearly unanimous negative reaction in this thread. That reveal must have been a real doozy.
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Mar 2, 2020 07:34
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So I only got into Doctor Who with Matt Smith (And the original Weeping Angel episode) do I'm not totally up on all of the lore. I've spent the last couple hours reading up older lore. And I still don't understand why they didn't make The Master the Timeless Child. It makes the character's insanity more understandable, raises more 'interesting' "Actually
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Mar 2, 2020 08:04
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I enjoyed the style of the cyber lords. The silly frowny face not so much, but the gallifreyan fins, and the filigree on the armour, was cool as poo poo.
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Mar 2, 2020 08:07
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Sudden Loud Noise posted:So I only got into Doctor Who with Matt Smith (And the original Weeping Angel episode) do I'm not totally up on all of the lore. I've spent the last couple hours reading up older lore. Honestly yeah, making the Timeless Child the Master would've made more sense. Or Rassilon maybe. I was originally thinking it could've been tied to the Sound of Drums thing, but I had to look it up to make sure and I had forgotten that was explained off that it was put there by Rassilon to he could escape. I guess it could be still tied in such that it was planted there also to give some sort of effect as without it, there'd have been no reaction since they' were already exposed to it when they first came to the universe or something so to cover it up, and utilize his plan, Rassilon made The Master crazy. The final showdown was also kinda dumb. I'd've expected the Doctor to have ended up bluffing the Master into the same field she was trapped in and I guess maybe forced into the Matrix that's now just loaded with her memories. The Cyber-Lords just stand there doing nothing because they can't operate without orders and the Cyberium presumably stays locked in with the Master (and left as a dangling plot hook for another showrunner to pick up if they want). The Doctor pockets the Lone Cyberman and tosses it into the TARDIS amongst a pile of other loose odds and ends that are kept there because of how dangerous they might be outside of the Doctor's hands.
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Mar 2, 2020 08:32
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And then the Judon arrest her for posession of a Ranger Key 
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Mar 2, 2020 08:45
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The Rise of Skywalker comparisons are spot on. I am completely to the teeth sick of big-name sci-fi franchises' obsession with inscribing the specialness of their protagonists in mythology and loving genetic heritage. That's an appalling stance to take in these hosed-up times (and doing it from behind the cover of diverse casting is especially galling). It's apparently unthinkable to just have a show about a completely mediocre person who one day decided to do her best to do good and that's what makes her the biggest hero there is. No, it has to be because the Doctor is central to the Lore of Doctor Who, and it is in fact her being central to the Lore that makes her special. It's a snake endlessly vomiting out its own tail, completely undermining the moral heart of the show to cater to fans' worst instincts. And I love lore, I eat that poo poo up, but don't dare pretend that it's somehow the point of the excercise - that I'm supposed to agree that Doctor Who is special simply because it's Doctor Who, and that's all I'm supposed to expect to get from it. This is the worst kind of Ian Levine poo poo. loving hate this.
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Mar 2, 2020 10:02
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I've had a night's sleep, but is there anything other than the Master's word saying that the Doctor is the Timeless Child? Also didn't see anything that suggested looms weren't still on the table 
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Mar 2, 2020 10:11
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Well, I’ve slept on it, and I’m still mad. Making the Doctor a literal god from another universe? What in the actual gently caress? Now if there’s a problem, the Doctor can just burn bodies up at it until solved? The explorer should have been Rassilon. Thought: the Matrix has failsafes guarding the Dark Times that automatically tell whoever is accessing them that Yes! It turns out YOU are the most important person ever! The_Doctor fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Mar 2, 2020 |
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Mar 2, 2020 10:12
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That was one of those episodes where as soon as the Master started pontificating about the Truth but not actually saying anything I knew the big reveal would be a waste of everyone's time. At least the "one question" thing didn't turn out to be a slew of flashbacks of people bellowing "Doctor Who?!" this time...Forktoss posted:It's apparently unthinkable to just have a show about a completely mediocre person who one day decided to do her best to do good and that's what makes her the biggest hero there is. To be fair, they did make a big deal of that with Yas this episode, calling out that unlike the Doctor she doesn't have her tricks and technology, just her resolve and bravery. And then it was just a guy who saved the day with a grand sacrifice at the end (a guy made to look just like Luke, mind you). Marmaduke! fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Mar 2, 2020 |
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Mar 2, 2020 10:20
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The_Doctor posted:Thought: the Matrix has failsafes guarding the Dark Times that automatically tell whoever is accessing them that Yes! It turns out YOU are the most important person ever! Except if it's the Master, in which case it says the Doctor is the most important person ever! I mean yeah it could still be a fakeout and it will likely be ignored/retconned by future showrunners but it's still total poo poo Marmaduke! posted:To be fair, they did make a big deal of that with Yas this episode, calling out that unlike the Doctor she doesn't have her tricks and technology, just her resolve and bravery. And then it was just a guy who saved the day with a grand sacrifice at the end (a guy made to look just like Luke, mind you). True, and I did like that bit with Yas. I just think it should apply to the Doctor as well. Forktoss fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Mar 2, 2020 |
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Mar 2, 2020 10:22
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Sudden Loud Noise posted:And I still don't understand why they didn't make The Master the Timeless Child. It makes the character's insanity more understandable, raises more 'interesting' "Actually I'm just going to keep running with the assumption that he is, and that this is all bullshit he's spewing out because he's a huge rear end in a top hat who at the heart of it all is just a petty dick who wants to gently caress with the Doctor's head. After all, nothing in what he shows her (much of which is incomplete) actually shows that the Doctor is the Timeless Child. We just see a Timeless Child who keeps regenerating and then the Master goes,"Haven't you figured out that it was you!?!" without anything to actually back that up beyond his word. It's just upsetting that with the lengthy time between seasons we're kinda left with this turd floating in the swimming pool, waiting for Bill Murray to dive in so we can find out if it was actually a sausage.
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Mar 2, 2020 10:33
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I’m going to become showrunner to throw this all out. The reaction seems to have been overwhelmingly negative all over the place, with the few holdouts mainly being ‘omg it was so bonkers, I love it!’
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Mar 2, 2020 10:34
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The more I think of it, the more little things are ruined/ignored/invented that just suck and weren't necessary. For example, except for special occasions like anniversaries, Time Lords don't meet themselves, it's supposed to cause "issues" (which I know is always ignored), and it only ever happens when some event is going on due to intervention by the Time Lords or another big event (except The Two Doctors, but that's the Season 6B thing that COULD have been used but wasn't). This made the Master and Missy together something so special and worth waiting for all these years, but I digress. There's a quick comment about how there might be many Doctors "out there" right now. It was too easy for her to cross paths with Ruth (and let alone the police box problem), I certainly don't like the idea of her being able to meet 40 different versions of herself now like it's no big thing. Except maybe Ruth again, Ruth was really good. But, it's another BS retcon now, after 37 or whatever seasons (depending how you count) and thousands of years of life, she happens to meet a mystery version of herself a few months before she learns all this. Chinball grabbed Chekov's gun and used it to shoot William Hartnell in the heart(s). I really hope the next show runner fixes all of this somehow.
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Mar 2, 2020 10:35
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