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Haramstufe Rot posted:I guess it's time to accept that our society has failed and all that lip service to human rights is a sham. But the disappointing thing isn't the EU institutions doing this. Because even the left wing posters here are now going: "well, if we do this, then everyone will swing to the right". What this says is simply that it's the entire population that operates on gently caress you, got mine. It doesn't matter if it is the EU, countries, counties or whoever. The people will not accept any Brown people or Muslims if that costs a couple of percent of GDP growth. There's no humanitarians here if it ain't easy and free. gently caress you got mine might as well be the EU's official slogan it is evil as poo poo is what i'm saying
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Mar 2, 2020 17:30
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Cat Mattress posted:It's a lot more classist than racist. Like, you're not wrong but I also think you are absolutely underselling the racism. It's more that being a billionaire gets you a free pass exception away from the racism stuff but it's still an inherent part of the EU. Migration is good but only if you're one of us.
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Mar 2, 2020 17:33
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Haramstufe Rot posted:I guess it's time to accept that our society has failed and all that lip service to human rights is a sham. But the disappointing thing isn't the EU institutions doing this. Because even the left wing posters here are now going: "well, if we do this, then everyone will swing to the right". What this says is simply that it's the entire population that operates on gently caress you, got mine. It doesn't matter if it is the EU, countries, counties or whoever. The people will not accept any Brown people or Muslims if that costs a couple of percent of GDP growth. There's no humanitarians here if it ain't easy and free. The reason they believe that of course is that it's been well ingrained, especially with the course of neoliberalization, that So now you're proposing to a bunch of people, who are already living in precarity, that they should do a thing that may risk the aforementioned losses in GDP, and introduce a bunch of different people in their society - people who will be often in a precarious position as well. They will have to adapt to intercultural dialogue, learn to tolerate differences, and help out others in need - while if the economy suffers the slightest external shock all of their lives will be thrown in the shitter. That, I think, is why people reject helping the migrants. They already live in a society that is miserly enough towards them, and don't want their position destabilized. And yeah, absolutely racism also plays a part. Scared, precarious people trend conservative, and they fear the gently caress out of external shocks. I believe a big part of the problem's root cause is precarity. mortons stork fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Mar 2, 2020 |
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Mar 2, 2020 17:38
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We never had the moral high ground, and the assumption that we ever did is part of the problem. it's systemic. This poo poo ain't getting fixed.it has to break, because it's by purpose a unbalanced design. Ever seen a helicopter rotor tear itself apart? It's pretty loving awesome, too bad about all the dead people. Edit:yeep.morton nails it on the head.there is no solidarity if your life is precarious.this is , again, the whole point Antifa Poltergeist fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Mar 2, 2020 |
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Mar 2, 2020 17:47
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Orange Devil posted:This cannot be overstated. We're in a situation where our labour pool is rapidly aging to the point that it's becoming a real issue. At the same time, millions of people who are on average a hell of a lot younger are trying to come to our countries. Obviously there's challenges, as they don't know our language, and there's cultural differences. So the question is if we can educate a couple million people. If only the state had some kind of experience with this type of challenge. If only there was something we could do here to fix this problem. Nope, can't think of anything, let's start killing them. Just for reference, this isn't a good talking point to use. Youth unemployment is currently 30% in Spain, 39% in Greece, 29% in Italy etc. There are literally tens of millions of unemployed young people in the EU already right now.
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Mar 2, 2020 19:28
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Blut posted:Just for reference, this isn't a good talking point to use. Youth unemployment is currently 30% in Spain, 39% in Greece, 29% in Italy etc. There are literally tens of millions of unemployed young people in the EU already right now. lol it owns that the EU is also responsible for this through its insane fiscal policy
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Mar 2, 2020 20:09
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Cat Mattress posted:France is already rocking the boat on other issues, without much success. From a Swedish point of view (more so than the other three at least), there's also something to be said for being made to subsidize a bunch of countries which only seem to be in the EU to get that money, with no intentions of living up to the supposed ideals of the European project. Like, weren't there talks about suspending membership for both Poland and Hungary at some point? As for Ireland being an outlier because of tax evasion, I'm not sure that's much of an argument for not having it get in line with the rest of the contributors. They can make up the difference by taxing those companies. Or the "hole" in the budget can be patched over with an EU tax on multinationals, completely sidestepping the recipient/contributor dynamic. Blut posted:Just for reference, this isn't a good talking point to use. Youth unemployment is currently 30% in Spain, 39% in Greece, 29% in Italy etc. There are literally tens of millions of unemployed young people in the EU already right now.
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Mar 2, 2020 20:12
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V. Illych L. posted:lol it owns that the EU is also responsible for this through its insane fiscal policy Almost exclusively driven by the Germans to be fair. They'll bankrupt every peripheral country in the long run as long as it keeps the exports humming.
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Mar 2, 2020 20:15
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Blut posted:Just for reference, this isn't a good talking point to use. Youth unemployment is currently 30% in Spain, 39% in Greece, 29% in Italy etc. There are literally tens of millions of unemployed young people in the EU already right now. So we have lots of work that needs doing. And lots of people who want to do work. If only there was some kind of societal organization that could bring these two factors together. Too bad a state just isn't capable of doing this. Such a shame. Even more tragic that there's just no mechanism to change the state such that it would serve these pressing needs of its people. No matter how much they might want this. Because the market, you see? A Buttery Pastry posted:Aside from that, the argument also rests on a foundation of "We should take in people because they help our economy", which is basically the same shoddy foundations the EU is built on and which clearly aren't sufficient. The argument is rapidly turning into "we should take in people because we literally don't have enough people to take care of the olds and change their diapers otherwise". But have no fear, this argument is being answered by "no, because gently caress foreigners and also gently caress the poor olds, let them rot in their own waste", so that neatly solves those problems. Blut posted:Almost exclusively driven by the Germans to be fair. They'll bankrupt every peripheral country in the long run as long as it keeps the exports humming. It's not the Germans. It's a bunch of rich parasites of all European nationalities loving over the hundreds of millions of the rest of us. The German state is just a powerful tool they use for their own ends. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Mar 2, 2020 |
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Mar 2, 2020 21:05
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Casual reminder that Friedrich Merz will be the next German Chancellor, and he is extremely anti-immigrant
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Mar 2, 2020 21:12
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Orange Devil posted:So we have lots of work that needs doing. And lots of people who want to do work. If only there was some kind of societal organization that could bring these two factors together. Well the whole issue here is there factually isn't "lots of work that needs doing" in most EU countries. Only a select few are anywhere near approaching full employment. So if you try to tell people in these countries that have Great Depression-era esque high youth unemployment rates that migrants need to be let in to "take all these unfilled jobs!!" all its going to do is annoy people, make them even more anti-migrant, and get them to ignore everything you have to say. As things stand any individual state just isn't capable of solving the issue of millions of young unemployed people in the Southern EU countries existing at the same time as job vacancies nearby in Ireland or Germany. Realistically it would require a multi-national political/economic union (ie, the EU) to implement some sort of massive program to encourage young unemployed people to move from Spain to Germany (or similar) to help fix this.. but the EU hasn't done so yet. Or else, even more ideally, the EU would use its policy tools to help readdress the balance of trade between Germany and the periphery so that these countries wouldn't be slowly going bankrupt, and their youth wouldn't be a lost generation. quote:It's not the Germans. It's a bunch of rich parasites of all European nationalities loving over the hundreds of millions of the rest of us. The German state is just a powerful tool they use for their own ends. Germany's 8% GDP p.a. trade surplus, along with their country-wide schwarze-null obsession, are hugely responsible for draining massive amounts of money from most of the rest of Europe. Both of which are supported by wide swathes of the Germany population. Its a separate, additional, issue to the whole international proletariat being exploited by the capitalists dance.
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Mar 2, 2020 23:12
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Blut posted:As things stand any individual state just isn't capable of solving the issue of millions of young unemployed people in the Southern EU countries existing at the same time as job vacancies nearby in Ireland or Germany. Realistically it would require a multi-national political/economic union (ie, the EU) to implement some sort of massive program to encourage young unemployed people to move from Spain to Germany (or similar) to help fix this.. but the EU hasn't done so yet. Or better yet, encourage the jobs to move whenever possible. Because if we're just setting brain drain so that South countries can go into debt investing in the education of their youth so that the educated young can then move to get a job (and therefore, pay taxes, buy things, etc.) in Germany, then you're just compounding the problem of Germany vampirizing the rest of Europe.
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Mar 2, 2020 23:50
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Cat Mattress posted:Or better yet, encourage the jobs to move whenever possible. Yes, its almost like the literal next sentence in my post that you choose to cut off mid paragraph for some reason mentioned exactly that: "Or else, even more ideally, the EU would use its policy tools to help readdress the balance of trade between Germany and the periphery so that these countries wouldn't be slowly going bankrupt, and their youth wouldn't be a lost generation."
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Mar 3, 2020 00:07
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Blut posted:Well the whole issue here is there factually isn't "lots of work that needs doing" in most EU countries. Only a select few are anywhere near approaching full employment. So if you try to tell people in these countries that have Great Depression-era esque high youth unemployment rates that migrants need to be let in to "take all these unfilled jobs!!" all its going to do is annoy people, make them even more anti-migrant, and get them to ignore everything you have to say. We're not talking about the same thing. When I look at our societies, I see foodbanks, I see waiting lists in healthcare, I see infrastructure which needs more maintenance and really should've been expanded decades ago. I see classes getting ever bigger because of a lack of teachers. I see justice systems buckling under the workload of judges and public defenders. I see retirement homes where the elderly live in appalling conditions due to a lack of staff. In short, there is so much loving work that needs doing. I don't give gently caress one that no capitalist has figured out how to extract profit from that work and that's why that societally valuable, useful and necessary work is not being done. That's an indictment of capitalism. An absolute failure of that system. What it does not change is that we have work that needs doing, and we have people in need of work. If the market can not bring those two together, then the market has failed, and its time we use a different method to solve the problem. We can do better than what we are doing. We know what work needs to be done, and we know we have people who can do the work. It's that loving simple.
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Mar 3, 2020 11:14
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"But all that public service stuff needs to be funded by taxpayer money and my friend Fitzjohnson Eustacius von Blimby-Poppington the Third Esquire told me that if he were to pay taxes, he couldn't come to his bunga-bunga parties on Epstein's lolita island in a new yacht every weekend. I'm sure you all agree that this would be a terrible tragedy. After all, as a hedge fund manager, he's really earning all the money he makes. I'm talking real merit, here; not like these useless parasites like teachers or nurses, who all they do is transmitting knowledge to future generations or saving lives. Who needs that stuff anyway?"
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Mar 3, 2020 11:33
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How much money did the EU create out of the ether to give to the banks in the last 10 years exactly? Imagine if we had used it to pay people to do useful things instead. Wouldn't have even needed any taxes. But also, we should tax the absolute gently caress out of these rich assholes anyway.
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Mar 3, 2020 11:39
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Orange Devil posted:How much money did the EU create out of the ether to give to the banks in the last 10 years exactly? Imagine if we had used it to pay people to do useful things instead. Wouldn't have even needed any taxes. According to Reuters, and this is the period covering just 2015-2018: quote:The ECB has spent 2.6 trillion euros ($3 trillion) over almost four years, buying up mostly government but also corporate debt, asset-backed securities and covered bonds — at a pace of 1.3 million euros a minute. That equates to roughly 7,600 euros for every person in the currency bloc. But my parents' house has shot up in value so hooray!
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Mar 3, 2020 11:40
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tbf imaginary money to give to banks doesn't drive short-term inflation like imaginary money to give to people. in the long term, austerity policies are sufficient to manage the flow of artificially cheap debt going around to businesses and consumers. please don't pay attention to this effectively being a massive vehicle of upwards wealth transfer
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Mar 3, 2020 11:43
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words fail me as i attempt to express my contempt on every level for the european ruling class. i believe i shall loathe them until i die
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Mar 3, 2020 11:45
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2.6 trillion euros over 4 years is 650 billion per year. Median wage in NL is 36,500 euros per year, which is very much above the EU average. So the EU could've paid almost 18 million people the Dutch median wage to do literally whatever the government needed doing during that 4 year period without causing any inflation whatsoever. And a lot of people could do work in other parts of the EU where wages are lower. And a lot of youth would be making well below median wage at the start of their career. It's perfectly conceivable that the EU could've paid nearly 10% of the EUs total population (so 50 million people) a living wage to do something useful. Even more if we also raised taxes on the wealthy and corporations. Instead of using 10% of the population to improve society, our liberal politicians chose to give the money to the banks, and let those people rot and our society decay.
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Mar 3, 2020 11:47
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nah the money multiplier of people spending money is much higher than that of banks getting to offer cheaper debt. there genuinely is an inflation-based argument for quantitative easing rather than massive social spending, but it's a profoundly ideological one
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Mar 3, 2020 12:25
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I'd be very very happy with a bunch of inflation eating my debt.
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Mar 3, 2020 12:28
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again, it comes down to the incredibly pernicious idea that market stability is paramount and that all governance is centered around a steadily increasing global stock index, itself driven by the ludicrously outsized importance of the financial sector compared to its actual utility (which imo is actually net negative)
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Mar 3, 2020 12:37
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Junior G-man posted:I'd be very very happy with a bunch of inflation eating my debt. 'sup fixed-rate mortgage buddy
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Mar 3, 2020 12:56
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V. Illych L. posted:itself driven by the ludicrously outsized importance of the financial sector compared to its actual utility (which imo is actually net negative)  I believe it's actually a net negative because of its outsized importance. There's that proverb that money is a good servant and a bad master; we live in a society that decided money should be the master.
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Mar 3, 2020 13:35
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I hate capitalism and I'm starting to hate the EU even though I still think a more connected Europe is a good thing. Set wages, prices and taxes to the same level all over Europe. Offer free healthcare in all European countries, allow migrants in and treat them loving humanely. But no, instead we cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations with one hand while we squeeze the poor and afraid with the other. Is the only way for it to be fixed really to watch it all implode and try again in a century?
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Mar 3, 2020 13:41
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Junior G-man posted:I'd be very very happy with a bunch of inflation eating my debt. Too bad the creditors control the government.
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Mar 3, 2020 13:43
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V. Illych L. posted:nah the money multiplier of people spending money is much higher than that of banks getting to offer cheaper debt. there genuinely is an inflation-based argument for quantitative easing rather than massive social spending, but it's a profoundly ideological one Junior G-man posted:I'd be very very happy with a bunch of inflation eating my debt. Hasn't inflation in the Eurozone been consistently below target levels for the past like decade or more anyway?
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Mar 3, 2020 14:43
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YF-23 posted:Hasn't inflation in the Eurozone been consistently below target levels for the past like decade or more anyway? yes
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Mar 3, 2020 21:16
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I don't know whether this has changed since, but I was taught that the american central bank has a dual mission of inflation close to 2%, and full employment. The european central bank has one mission: inflation below 2%. This matters because as an economy approaches full employment, inflation tends to go up. So yay market stability > > > > > > > people's wellbeing. Again.
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Mar 3, 2020 21:37
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double nine posted:I don't know whether this has changed since, but I was taught that the american central bank has a dual mission of inflation close to 2%, and full employment. The european central bank has one mission: inflation below 2%. The purpose of the EU, aside from being the most neo-liberal poo poo-show known to man, is keeping Jerry relaxed. As it turns out, Jerry as a nation is still traumatized not by them electing an Austrian chancellor but by the inflation that happened a decade before him. Therefore, the eurozone is a massive funnel of money from the outside to the pockets of Germans! Isn't that swell. At least no one has invaded Belgium lately?
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Mar 3, 2020 22:19
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Yeah, because everyone is scared of modern Germany's broomstick battalion and their 1% operational aircraft availability.
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Mar 4, 2020 01:11
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Deutsche bank can, and has, wreck entire countries, they don't need broom battalions.
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Mar 4, 2020 02:17
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Super Tuesday is currently sucking balls; where would be the best place to move to in the EU? Germany or Switzerland? Also how restrictive are internet/YouTube laws there?
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Mar 4, 2020 03:31
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Grouchio posted:Super Tuesday is currently sucking balls; where would be the best place to move to in the EU? Germany or Switzerland? Before moving to the EU please consider learning some things about it, such as: Switzerland is not in the EU. What are you planning to do that might be restricted?
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Mar 4, 2020 03:38
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Honj Steak posted:Before moving to the EU please consider learning some things about it, such as: Switzerland is not in the EU. (I said EU as Europe in general. How good is expating to Switzerland?)
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Mar 4, 2020 03:41
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Deutsche bank can, and has, wreck entire countries, they don't need broom battalions. You're not going to convince the north, Germans or otherwise, to pursue a policy that will erode their savings. Evidently the south can't be convinced to run economies that doesn't require perpetual high deficits. As such we're at an impasse and we ought to go our own ways.
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Mar 4, 2020 03:51
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Grouchio posted:Watch let's plays, music videos, stuff that somewhat often gets copyright stricken in the us? I'm not hugely knowledgeable about Switzerland but there's quite a few expats there, mostly EU ones though. It's also a very expensive place.
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Mar 4, 2020 03:54
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Owling Howl posted:You're not going to convince the north, Germans or otherwise, to pursue a policy that will erode their savings. Evidently the south can't be convinced to run economies that doesn't require perpetual high deficits. As such we're at an impasse and we ought to go our own ways. wouldn't it be effectively impossible for both regions to try and do those things independently?
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Mar 4, 2020 06:26
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Grouchio posted:Watch let's plays, music videos, stuff that somewhat often gets copyright stricken in the us?
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Mar 4, 2020 07:17
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