|
Hissy erasure is the worst trait of Who fans
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2020 22:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 21:33 |
|
|
Bring CGI Snake back, Big Finish
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2020 23:00
|
|
|
Also again I do want to stress that this is how the "reveal" of the Timeless Child rolls out in the episode: Master: So look, here's memories of the origin of the Time Lords, in which they experimented on an unknown alien called The Timeless Child that had the power to regenerate when they died. Doctor: Okay. Weird but you've shown me the actual evidence of this claim and I'm going to ignore that you've been able to edit Matrix memories in the past. Master: Also without anything to back it up at all, I'm saying that YOU are the Timeless Child. Doctor: Here are several reasons why that's not probable. Master: Well I'm saying that you are and offering nothing else beyond my statement, including nothing to answer any of the points you just made. Doctor: Well okay I guess I am the Timeless Child then. So I still think the reveal the Master lied about her being the Timeless Child is just going to end up being the new "twist" at the climax of this storyline in the next season which will be in.... 2021 probably 
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2020 23:12
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:Also again I do want to stress that this is how the "reveal" of the Timeless Child rolls out in the episode: 2021? Always the optimist
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2020 23:28
|
|
|
CommonShore posted:2021? Always the optimist They're supposed to start filming sometime this year last I heard.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2020 23:31
|
|
|
I don't think Chibnall will invalidate this twist. He wants this to be the case. A LATER showrunner may well decide to do that, but that's a ways down the road.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2020 23:31
|
|
|
Casting spoilers that may or may not be true, depending if you believe the Daily Mirror: Bradley Walsh and Tosin Cole are going to be leaving in the holiday special this year.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2020 23:34
|
|
|
the lack of momentum between series is the biggest problem by far to me. As a reminder, series 11 finished airing in 2018 and the only reason it can claim to have finished in 2019 is because that's when the New Years Special came out. Otherwise it ended in 2018 in every other way. Series 12 didn't start until 2020. Not a full two years later, but even if you took the new years special as the end point for series 11, over a year after. That's devastating for a show like Who. So much of Doctor Who can be ignored and more easily smoothed over because you have the usual few months wait time between series. The longer the wait, the less momentum you have and the more the problems fester. For me, waiting over a year? I just lost interest. Most of series 11 was fine though some of the episodes could jump off a bridge, but none of it was good enough to keep me excited for all that time. Trying to tell a continuing story, with less episodes over all to boot, with that much space between seasons is terrible. If the wait was longer and they started fresh every time, maybe it'd be more understandable. This is just Bleh
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2020 23:34
|
|
|
Chibnall’s ‘5 year stint’ is definitely only going to be 3 seasons.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2020 23:37
|
|
|
I hold to the theory Doctor Who will be given less and less episodes every year, justified as leaning into event streaming, which will eventually dissipate into 1 new Doctor every couple years for 1 episode. People just want to see who the next Doctor is. City of Death is still pretty good. Thank you David Agnew.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2020 23:38
|
|
|
What does this mean for Susan/the Doctor's kids like were they Time Lords or half Time Lord/half Timeless Child?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2020 23:52
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:What does this mean for Susan/the Doctor's kids like were they Time Lords or half Time Lord/half Timeless Child? They're whatever you want them to be.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2020 23:58
|
|
|
So, I'm still (slowly) working through the older modern episodes and am in series 7 now. In particular, I just finished watching Dinosaurs on a Spaceship and was quite possibly irrationally excited for an episode with that title. Then I saw it was written by Chibnall and got quite worried, for... let's say, understandable reasons. And then the episode was amazing. It was the exact kind of dumb, shlocky fun that the show excels at. It's like, yeah, Chibnall can do good episodes once in a while; they're just quite rare, I guess.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 00:07
|
|
|
I wish Arachnids in the UK had the same kind of energy as that episode (which I wasn't the biggest fan of, but it had fun with the concept).
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 00:10
|
|
|
I liked The Timeless Child's story, I just had issues with continuity. I guess that's to be expected in general for Dr. Who, but a pre-One having a police box Tardis with a broken chameleon circuit just seems a little too discontinuous.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 00:18
|
|
|
 Jerusalem posted:Also, and I cannot stress this enough, that extraordinary sense of compassion was born out of exposure to humans softening his initial grumpy, "My Granddaughter and I first, everybody else a distant second" approach to everything. He went from arrogant and high-handed (and willing to smash in the head of an injured man slowing them all down) to a charming old softy who followed in the lead that Ian and Barbara set for him of helping people in need and stopping assholes from taking advantage/hurting others, and that only grew with each new regeneration along the same vein of,"Let's all be friends and have fun and put a stop to anybody being a total dick". I feel you and while this is absolutely my headcanon on how the character developed, is there any proof that Newman, Lambert, David Whitaker, and Hartnell actually intended this? That there was ever a planned arc for the Doctor's character? Maybe I'm wrong, and there was something like this planned, to have him start as an rear end in a top hat and turn more humane, but I think the truth is that's reading way too much serialization and character development into 60s tv. I think Hartnell played him a certain way to begin with, he was written in a certain way, and then as time went by they changed him. I think he was intended to be the arch, dispassionate scientist and Susan, Ian, and Barbara were the humane audience identification characters. As time went by he became the Hero to Children, Susan, Ian, and Barbara left, and by default the Doctor had to become the goodest guy. We can choose to see it that way. We can choose to imagine Hartnell dealing with the Time Lords as we saw them, but in reality none of that existed in the first few seasons. Regeneration didn't exist. Gallifrey didn't exist. It's all retcons. LOL...I actually was thinking about posting this joke today. I knew BF coudn't resist. As soon as they parsed what happened with the Morbius Doctors, they were probably already writing outlines for box sets. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 01:39
|
|
|
For anyone not aware of what this means, Hinchcliffe was the show's producer at the time of The Brain of Morbius, and one of the faces used in the episode's sequence of implied previous Doctors. He's also worked with Big Finish on a series of 4th Doctor audio dramas.quote:During the Doctor's mental battle with Morbius, the mind-bending machine displays two images of Morbius, then images of the Doctor's four incarnations as of the serial's production. These are followed by images of eight previously-unseen faces, intended to represent incarnations preceding the First Doctor. The Doctor's previous faces are portrayed by production unit manager George Gallaccio, script editor Robert Holmes, production assistant Graeme Harper, director Douglas Camfield, producer Philip Hinchcliffe, production assistant Christopher Baker, writer Robert Banks Stewart, and director Christopher Barry. Hinchcliffe stated, "We tried to get famous actors for the faces of the Doctor. But because no one would volunteer, we had to use backroom boys. And it is true to say that I attempted to imply that William Hartnell was not the first Doctor".
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 01:50
|
|
|
Most of the criticism of the finale has been about the timeless child reveal, but I think it's worth pointing out how badly written the resolution of the episode is: The Doctor plans to detonate the death particle, killing herself, the master and the new cybermen. The Master taunts her, saying that if she does she'll be just like him. The Doctor backs down, implicitly agreeing that using the death particle will make her like the Master, and he taunts her for her supposed weakness. That would all be fine if the Doctor had then gone on to find a better solution, but instead the old man shows up to do it in the Doctor's place. What are we supposed to take away from that other than being like the Master is fine and the Doctor really is weak?
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 01:53
|
|
|
Astroman posted:I feel you and while this is absolutely my headcanon on how the character developed, is there any proof that Newman, Lambert, David Whitaker, and Hartnell actually intended this? That there was ever a planned arc for the Doctor's character? Maybe I'm wrong, and there was something like this planned, to have him start as an rear end in a top hat and turn more humane, but I think the truth is that's reading way too much serialization and character development into 60s tv. I think Hartnell played him a certain way to begin with, he was written in a certain way, and then as time went by they changed him. I think he was intended to be the arch, dispassionate scientist and Susan, Ian, and Barbara were the humane audience identification characters. As time went by he became the Hero to Children, Susan, Ian, and Barbara left, and by default the Doctor had to become the goodest guy. It absolutely wasn't the planned thing, but it happened due to production reasons and performance and writing choices as you noted above, and it ended up creating a narrative that while unintended worked extremely nicely in terms of character development for the Doctor, and has been largely the basis for the character from that point forward, and creating some bullshit "actually the Doctor was just always this way for multiple unseen lives before Hartnell" is just... well, it's completely pointless and adds nothing to the series whatsoever. Even that silly Brain of Morbius scene originally had the intention of letting Robert Holmes tell a "the last Doctor" story (which he went ahead and implied in Caves of Androzani anyway) but it was rightfully ignored and discarded by everybody except a few people who obsessed over "explaining" it. Sadly it looks like Chibnall was one of those few people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 01:56
|
|
|
quote:During the Doctor's mental battle with Morbius, the mind-bending machine displays two images of Morbius, then images of the Doctor's four incarnations as of the serial's production. These are followed by images of eight previously-unseen faces, intended to represent incarnations preceding the First Doctor. The Doctor's previous faces are portrayed by production unit manager George Gallaccio, script editor Robert Holmes, production assistant Graeme Harper, director Douglas Camfield, producer Philip Hinchcliffe, production assistant Christopher Baker, writer Robert Banks Stewart, and director Christopher Barry. Hinchcliffe stated, "We tried to get famous actors for the faces of the Doctor. But because no one would volunteer, we had to use backroom boys. And it is true to say that I attempted to imply that William Hartnell was not the first Doctor". I'm so sick of the loving poo poo lazy writing on this goddamn show!
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 01:57
|
|
|
Astroman posted:I feel you and while this is absolutely my headcanon on how the character developed, is there any proof that Newman, Lambert, David Whitaker, and Hartnell actually intended this? That there was ever a planned arc for the Doctor's character? I've seen it written that Ian was intended from the start to be the "action hero" of the show with the Doctor as an anti-hero. But as you say, I don't know that any arc was planned. They probably never expected Jacqueline Hill and William Russell to leave the show. Hell, the Doctor kidnapped the two humans so that no one would learn of his existence, lied often in ways that put them all in danger, and was fully prepared to kick them off the ship to their death at one point all in the first season. As shown, it does feel on-screen that he started to warm up to their adventures. Based on what I know of Hartnell, I wouldn't be surprised if the number of kid fans he suddenly had after decades of being typecast as criminals or tough military sergeants, that he started asking for his role to become softer. But yeah, the early years of Who were extremely made up as they went along. What with the Doctor being a human who invented the Tardis, the only one of its kind, depending on which episode you watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmhVfNcVbqQ
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 02:12
|
|
|
You know what, I've been too hard on Chibnall, claiming he's obsessed with "explaining" The Brain of Morbius.... maybe he's just obsessed with explaining the other "problem" of Pertwee's Doctor claiming to be thousands of years old!
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 02:34
|
|
|
Not to get all r/fixing movies but it would take one short sequence to throw all of the timeless child out. Time lords show up, explain that they were worried about what the Master was doing so they created a sandbox Gallifrey that he would be tricked into thinking was the real one. Rose Doc was included because there had to be a Doctor for the Master to play against (not realizing the real one would show up) The timeless child is a failsafe story in the matrix that everyone sees as themselves, but the Master was so broken that he saw the Doctor in the role. Then move on. Now you know what to expect when I become showrunner in eight years.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 03:51
|
|
|
The_Doctor posted:Casting spoilers that may or may not be true, depending if you believe the Daily Mirror: This seems to be confirmed by multiple sources now.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 15:31
|
|
|
Mokinokaro posted:This seems to be confirmed by multiple sources now. From what I can see they’re all repeating what the Daily Mirror is saying.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 15:35
|
|
|
quote:A show source told Mirror Online: “Two years is a long time in the world of Doctor Who. Yaz will be back but Christmas will be the last outing for Ryan and Graham.” Oh well. At least that means Yaz will finally be able to do things. Vinylshadow fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Mar 4, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 17:15
|
|
|
Probably want to use spoiler tags for that. But yeah I always liked Yaz and wished she got things to do, and three companions is definitely too many.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 21:09
|
|
|
As someone who is a big fan of the Faction Paradox spin off novels and the unbound Doctor Who audio dramas (which for anyone unfamiliar are one-shot alternate continuities, basically a "what if" that frequently ends badly) I could care less about the current version of the TV show eating its own rear end with terrible continuity. It's just another unbound story, whatever. Continuity will get rebooted completely again at some point in the future so none of this will have a lasting impact other than maybe a footnote somewhere. What people can't overlook however is garbage tier writing. It was getting worse every year, year on year and rather than reinvigorating or improving it this current mob is simply more of the same, albeit by people huffing their own farts and proud of it. Quit watching entirely halfway through Capaldi's era after realising I was looking out for the "good" episode instead of wanting to watch them all. Don't see a reason I'd even try watching again until maybe a decade has passed and they've sorted themselves out.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 21:27
|
|
|
marktheando posted:Probably want to use spoiler tags for that. It makes sense, Bradley Walsh stars in loads of things - The Chase, Law & Order UK, Breaking Dad. He must be very busy and his career definitely isn't reliant on Doctor Who.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 21:30
|
|
|
DancingShade posted:As someone who is a big fan of the Faction Paradox spin off novels and the unbound Doctor Who audio dramas (which for anyone unfamiliar are one-shot alternate continuities, basically a "what if" that frequently ends badly) I could care less about the current version of the TV show eating its own rear end with terrible continuity. It's just another unbound story, whatever. Continuity will get rebooted completely again at some point in the future so none of this will have a lasting impact other than maybe a footnote somewhere. This is pretty much why I bailed about halfway through Smith's run. With the exception of most of 9's run (which I put down mainly to Eccleston's acting) and a few moments here and there with 10, it became pretty clear that RTD was increasingly more worried about delivering "moments" instead of stories with a cohesive narrative. With the exception of the 50th anniversary special (which I forgive because it was just the proper amount of fanwankiness), I didn't like 11's run because Moffat was constantly trying to show just how super clever he believes himself to be. Never bothered to check out 12. 13...well, let's say I get the same amount of enthusiasm out of Chibnall's run as I would listening to someone rubbing their hands on styrofoam packaging. He's mainly just blah, except now he's apparently decided to take a page out of his predecessors' books and try to be super clever and impressed with himself too.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 21:49
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:It absolutely wasn't the planned thing, but it happened due to production reasons and performance and writing choices as you noted above, and it ended up creating a narrative that while unintended worked extremely nicely in terms of character development for the Doctor, and has been largely the basis for the character from that point forward, and creating some bullshit "actually the Doctor was just always this way for multiple unseen lives before Hartnell" is just... well, it's completely pointless and adds nothing to the series whatsoever. Even that silly Brain of Morbius scene originally had the intention of letting Robert Holmes tell a "the last Doctor" story (which he went ahead and implied in Caves of Androzani anyway) but it was rightfully ignored and discarded by everybody except a few people who obsessed over "explaining" it. Sadly it looks like Chibnall was one of those few people. The Doctor-Doctor conversation, and honestly most of the “this will blow your mind” stuff seems directed at the audience more than Jodie’s Doctor. This doesn’t change any of what we already saw, it just opens up the Doctor’s past as well as her future. I personally didn’t feel a need to have past Doctor-as-rebelling-former-Division-agent stories, but it’s no more ridiculous than the Valeyard and the conceptual framework was better. Still have yet to see anyone explain why the episode title is The Timeless Children, because the Doctor is (maybe) the Timeless Child, and I don’t think the Cyber Lords or the Master are the others. The Time Lords generally? Humans? There’s some signification that hasn’t been registered yet.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 21:52
|
|
|
It's the closest thing to a name for the Doctor's species, I guess
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 22:03
|
|
|
I guess all Time Lords are symbolically her children as they carry her DNA?
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2020 23:47
|
|
|
I thought it was just all the different regenerations
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2020 00:06
|
|
|
I'm quoting this image, because: what the gently caress was even the point of Capt Jack showing up to deliver a warning? I thought we were gonna get, I dunno, a seemingly remorseful cyberman or something. Like, he appeals to the Doctor's compassion, says "I HAVE EMOTIONS AND WISH TO ENJOY A WELL-PREPARED MEAL. ALSO I AM THE LAST OF MY KIND, AND YOU KNOW HOW THAT IZZZZ!"; Doctor starts to fall for his act, then bam, turns out it's all a trap. Instead, nope it's just an uber-crazy cyberman sharing his plan of deleting all life and domination over the universe. "Don't give him what he wants"? Really don't think we needed the heads up to not listen to the psychotic genocidal maniac, Jack, but thanks anyways! Then he gets chumped in a second by the Master like he was Aunt Vanessa. Wow. Such a threat. Glad Jack showed up to warn us! A waste of good Barrowman, I tell you. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2020 04:16
|
|
|
I feel like Jack coming back to try to alter a past event is something that's going to start a new Time War or something similar.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2020 04:46
|
|
|
Stunt Rock posted:Honestly the Timeless Child twist isn't all that different from what Moffatt gave us with Matt Smith, where The Doctor was the most important and precious person in the entire universe and we were constantly being reminded of that at all times. This reveal fucks up The Doctor's entire backstory by revealing that they were The Doctor before they made the promise to themselves to become The Doctor. Never cruel. Never cowardly. Never give up. Never give in. Whoops! Nope. You're special because you came from beyond some portal that goes somewhere and instead of a rebel thumbing your nose at high society types who think you shouldn't help people, you're a loving cop.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2020 04:47
|
|
|
wow that was bad
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2020 06:46
|
|
|
JacquelineDempsey posted:I'm quoting this image, because: what the gently caress was even the point of Capt Jack showing up to deliver a warning? I thought we were gonna get, I dunno, a seemingly remorseful cyberman or something. Like, he appeals to the Doctor's compassion, says "I HAVE EMOTIONS AND WISH TO ENJOY A WELL-PREPARED MEAL. ALSO I AM THE LAST OF MY KIND, AND YOU KNOW HOW THAT IZZZZ!"; Doctor starts to fall for his act, then bam, turns out it's all a trap. Instead, nope it's just an uber-crazy cyberman sharing his plan of deleting all life and domination over the universe. "Don't give him what he wants"? Really don't think we needed the heads up to not listen to the psychotic genocidal maniac, Jack, but thanks anyways! on that note what was the loving purpose of the lone cyberman (god, I hate that) at all? a walking opportunity for theme and it's just discarded all that setup, establishment of internal conflict and contradiction, for nothing
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2020 07:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 21:33 |
|
|
I wish Jack had gone back in time to warn me not to watch that episode.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2020 08:12
|
|
