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I’d love to hear some more outlier cases for sure
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Mar 6, 2020 03:31
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Ultimate Mango posted:Since we don’t have a VC thread, would entrepreneurial related negotiation and valuation be of interest here? Possibly related: I might get to be a coach at a local VC pitch competition... 
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Mar 6, 2020 03:49
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Eric the Mauve posted:
I was negotiating my position to post more content in the thread. I accept your terms.
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Mar 6, 2020 04:03
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Ultimate Mango posted:I was negotiating my position to post more content in the thread. I accept your terms. How much more content are you looking to make? Please be specific, I need a number to give to HR!
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Mar 6, 2020 08:36
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Eric the Mauve posted:Even after you have experience, if the jobs you ultimately want to make a career of generally require the MS, you need to do what it takes to get the MS ASAP. Otherwise, later you'll try to get jobs relying on your experience, and lose to candidates to have experience and a Masters (or even just a Masters; degrees are hard requirements for a lot of companies). Dik Hz posted:In my opinion, MS is worthless for getting industry jobs. Either go all the way with the PhD or get industry experience. I hire STEM grads, from associates to PhD level, and the MS is irrelevant. I'd rather hire someone with 3 years' experience in my industry than a fresh MS grad. Some companies (looking at you, 3M) are picky about grad degrees, but it's PhD or nothing to them also. Inept posted:That's her job, not yours. Asking you to list reasons you're worth money after you've already interviewed is real stupid and trying to knock you down a peg to justify giving you a lower salary. Don't play their game.
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Mar 6, 2020 08:45
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I am up for a promotion at my current company and intend this time to negotiate on the salary. I say this time because I haven't negotiated my last 3 salaries because the offers were all above what I would have asked for. The issue I feel I'm facing is that I have no frame of reference for salaries at this level. The bio/pharma company I work for was taken over recently by a bigger one, and as I understand it the salaries are lower in the bigger company. This is also in Switzerland where the cost of living is high compared to the rest of Europe, and it's a small country so Glassdoor has little useful info. The promotion is from Clinical Scientist at Senior Manager level, 150k CHF, to Senior Clinical Scientist at rear end Director level. I was approached for a job locally at a less good company with according to the recruitment a salary range of Fr150-170 so I guess the upper end of that would be the minimum acceptable. I have also been advising another team internally who have said they would love me to join their group. There is also a Swiss government website that is pretty general but suggests I should be paid more, but I'm not sure how reliable that is as a guide. https://entsendung.admin.ch/Lohnrechner/lohnberechnung So I guess my question is what would be the recommended approach for this situation? I probably can't start interviewing elsewhere quickly enough to get another offer. I get on well with my boss and think I could probably ask him if the offer is the same as other colleagues at the same level. The offer may not come via him though.
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Mar 6, 2020 15:10
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Suicide, Dik has a lot more industry experience than I do, so you should listen to him unless you think there’s something specific about your field that makes it otherwise. I was just working from your stated assumption that a Masters was important in your field.
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Mar 6, 2020 15:54
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knox_harrington posted:I am up for a promotion at my current company and intend this time to negotiate on the salary. I say this time because I haven't negotiated my last 3 salaries because the offers were all above what I would have asked for. I'm US and I know European labor laws are way different. So, someone correct me if this doesn't work. That said, your best bet is probably to get that offer from the other company. Don't tell your company about the offer, but now you have both more information and an alternative. From there it sort of depends on how things play out and the qualitative stuff like personality and culture.
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Mar 6, 2020 16:07
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knox_harrington posted:I am up for a promotion at my current company and intend this time to negotiate on the salary. I say this time because I haven't negotiated my last 3 salaries because the offers were all above what I would have asked for. You're in a position to negotiate, but you don't truly have leverage until you have an offer in hand that you are willing to accept. See if you can get that offer from the other company on paper, and in the meantime, do your homework and figure out a number you'd be comfortable accepting for the promotion. Wait for the promo, and if it's not where you want it to be, ask for what you want. Don't mention the other offer unless you're willing to burn bridges; people don't react well to perceived threats, and it could put a target on your back even if they do give you the salary you want. If they don't give your desired rate, be willing to take that other offer. That's all there is to it.
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Mar 6, 2020 16:14
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I lowballed myself I think because I didn't want to blow the offer 
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Mar 6, 2020 19:27
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Echoing the above posts, it’s always worth repeating that if you’re not actually willing to walk away if you don’t get what you want, you’re not negotiating; you’re just trying to persuade someone to give you money.
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Mar 6, 2020 19:41
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What's a reasonable amount to ask for when your department is shrinking by a head and you are asked to pick up their entire workload? Here's my situation: We are a department of six. Five of us are in technical sales for capital equipment and we have one person whose responsible for logistics to ship the equipment from Germany to the USA. This logistics person was out for an extended period of time last summer after a leg injury, in which I covered for her for about 8 weeks. I was able to handle the workload, but it was certainly compromised in certain ways, and this really should be a separate persons 40/hr week job. Now this same person is set to return to Germany in June, and there are no plans to replace her. It's more or less an open secret that her workload will again fall onto me, and there would be no plan to shift any of my workload onto someone else in my department. I have no hard numbers as to what her compensation is. I know she's hourly (I'm salary); I'd say she grosses somewhere between 55k and 60k (~27/hr). I am currently making 76k with bonus. What would be a reasonable increase in comp for taking over an additional persons entire workload? I actually really like my job and my colleagues, so no I have not started looking for competing offers and I realize that unless I'm willing to walk, this isn't really negotiating since I do not have an alternative lined up.
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Mar 12, 2020 13:58
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Sock The Great posted:I actually really like my job and my colleagues, so no I have not started looking for competing offers and I realize that unless I'm willing to walk, this isn't really negotiating since I do not have an alternative lined up. Yep, start looking for other jobs. If they're not willing to hire someone new and want to dump the work on you, the pay increase doesn't really matter. You'll go nuts doing two jobs and they'll save a bunch of money.
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Mar 12, 2020 14:14
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That’s a really sweet deal you’re giving that company that doesn’t give a poo poo about you. Asking for more money if you’re not willing to walk is -EV in a scenario like this. They’ll say no (or “definitely sometime soon,” which means “no”) and you’ll say “well, OK” and that will solidify forever their already existent belief that they own you. It’s time to jump.
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Mar 12, 2020 15:21
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Inept posted:Yep, start looking for other jobs. If they're not willing to hire someone new and want to dump the work on you, the pay increase doesn't really matter. You'll go nuts doing two jobs and they'll save a bunch of money. This. There's no amount of money that's going to be worth it. Just look for another job. Leverage your experience handling that other aspect to expanding your job options.
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Mar 12, 2020 16:08
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If they shoveled a bunch of additional responsibilities in your lap and didn't talk compensation then they already think they own you and can abuse you liberally. If they've complained about your output ever while you're doing two peoples' jobs they think they own you and that you're so weak they can abuse you into doing more for them. You probably need to leave. Not, you probably need to get another offer; you probably need to leave.
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Mar 12, 2020 16:13
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The temporary, person is out we need someone to pick up the slack is not a huge deal to me. This happens when people retire, change jobs, have a baby, etc. Hopefully you get a bigger bonus for that time as some recognition. Now that the person is leaving permanently you get to find out the real deal. I would ask if they are expecting you to do two jobs. If they are not honest or will not say, staet looking around. If they say yes, tell them you are going to schedule a time in two weeks to discuss compensation for completing two jobs and start looking for new jobs. You should really start looking for new jobs like everyone says regardless. You need leverage. V also good advice spwrozek fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Mar 12, 2020 |
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Mar 12, 2020 16:43
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I would have a conversation about role responsibilities first before you talk about anything else. Once you do that you can probably have a conversation about salary but that is pretty downstream. I'm not as fast on the "Look for new job" trigger but you shouldn't definitely be talking to your management about this.
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Mar 12, 2020 17:17
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At what point/tips on phrasing should I bring up salary for a position that advertised a range in the ad? The top end is lower than I would take currently, but if they bumped it up by about 7k (from 58,240 to 65000) I would strongly consider the offer (of course depending on what else they offer as well). This is going through a staffing agency (I know) and they have just contacted me to schedule the initial phone interview. I get that it's a little premature, but I figured I'd ask early rather than too late. This would also involve a cross country move so please feel free to give me any insights about tacking on a relo package as well as any warning/pitfalls I should look out for. By the way I greatly appreciate the information you all have posted and it's already helped me become considerably more confident in future negotiations.
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Mar 21, 2020 01:07
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As late as possible. You want them to be as invested in you as possible, and for saying no to mean starting a long process over.
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Mar 21, 2020 01:50
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Right but if I hear something like "ok I'm going to submit you for x salary" prior to speaking with the actual company, do I bring it up then or after I get a formal offer letter? Especially since with staffing agencies you sign all that as part of a collection of documents.
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Mar 21, 2020 02:53
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:do not open range conversations imo it benefits you a lot less than it benefits them Agree. If you don’t have one, as said above then current salary x1.5-2 is a good reply to most speculative enquiries about expectations. Don’t worry about pricing yourself out; all you’re really communicating is “upper end of whatever range you have, but I’m tactful enough not to say so directly”. Any employer that doesn’t take that well is not a good employer to work for.
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Mar 23, 2020 12:51
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I'm in the midst of negotiating three external offers. But I do want to share two things with this thread: 1. Always ask for the range: It never hurts to ask the recruiter or hiring manager what is the salary range for the job listing. I've interviewed for over 30 jobs in the past year. Multiple times I was able to get the recruiter to disclose their range outright or provide a sense of it. You can't take them for their word and you don't have to restrict your ask to that range, but it sure as poo poo beats having no information at all. 2. Emphasize the existence of competing offers: If you're gonna lie about one thing, make it about the existence of a competing offer. This is most useful when the offer you've received is below market rate. It's not very useful to tell Company A that market rate is $X because you haven't showed you'd actually be able to get $X. Far more effective to say you have one or two competing offers for $X, and that you find it hard to say no because $X happens to be the market rate. Soften the implied threat by emphasizing how much you'd prefer Company A because they're so special and cool, and that the money would help you make up your mind. Of course, I'm sure folks here will tell you to just find an employer not dickish enough to lowball you at first try, which brings me to my next point... 3. Accept an offer and keep looking: Accept an offer and even start the job, but keep interviewing for other roles. Burning your bridges and getting a bad name is almost definitely a smaller problem than you think. I started my current job feeling lukewarm about it, but I continued interviewing. When working conditions turned out to be as bad as expected, I was able to receive three new offers within a month. If I had stopped interviewing it would have taken me much, much longer to secure those offers. I would have a much bigger employment gap in my resume to explain in the future.
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Mar 30, 2020 11:06
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Vegetable posted:1. Always ask for the range: It never hurts to ask the recruiter or hiring manager what is the salary range for the job listing. I've interviewed for over 30 jobs in the past year. Multiple times I was able to get the recruiter to disclose their range outright or provide a sense of it. You can't take them for their word and you don't have to restrict your ask to that range, but it sure as poo poo beats having no information at all. 
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Mar 30, 2020 18:13
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Vegetable posted:I'm in the midst of negotiating three external offers. But I do want to share two things with this thread: Yeah about this, watch out if you're new in the game. I had a recruiter last year tell me the salary range (between 42.000 and 46.000 DKK) for the position over the phone, but then at the actual job interview turned that into telling the hiring managers that we had actually agreed on 42.000 DKK over the phone, and that the salary discussion was already a done deal.
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Mar 30, 2020 21:00
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Try being sent an offer letter several thousand below what was previously discussed with zero heads up that it was changed. Like I legit think he was hoping I wouldn't notice.
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Mar 30, 2020 21:16
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Vegetable posted:1. Always ask for the range: It never hurts to ask the recruiter or hiring manager what is the salary range for the job listing. I've interviewed for over 30 jobs in the past year. Multiple times I was able to get the recruiter to disclose their range outright or provide a sense of it. You can't take them for their word and you don't have to restrict your ask to that range, but it sure as poo poo beats having no information at all. Also, as Cucumbers pointed out, the recruiter is just going to report to the director/VP, "Well he seemed OK with $bottom_of_range". Congrats, you've now anchored them on the lowest possible number.
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Mar 30, 2020 23:43
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Yeah, definitely ask the hiring manager for a range when you get the chance. Never ever say anything substantial to a recruiter, period. Standard reminder that when a recruiter pushes you to name a number and you decline and the recruiter says "$COMPANY can't continue without you naming a number", the only correct response is to say "sorry to hear that, bye" and hang up.
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Mar 31, 2020 01:17
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yeah, definitely ask the hiring manager for a range when you get the chance. Never ever say anything substantial to a recruiter, period. Also, hiring managers don't usually have budgetary control over their direct reports, so I wouldn't recommend asking directly for a range. Instead, "What's the budget for this position?" is a better question, imho. I'm a hiring manager, and the answer to the question is: "It depends on how well I can sell you to my boss's boss." I won't name a number because I honestly don't have one when I'm interviewing candidates. Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Mar 31, 2020 |
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Mar 31, 2020 11:07
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I think some of the advice of "Walk away if they don't approach salary conversations the way you want" is going to be very quickly outdated here, hopefully we get back to a candidate market but a lot of people are on unemployment and probably can't afford to tell recruiters to shove it. I agree on chatting with a recruiter is not the right time to anchor a salary number, but you can get around that a bunch of ways. "Market Rate" or "I'm looking for (20% above market rate) but fit, benefits and work type will adjust that accordingly". That anchors you above your number but shouldn't shut the door for qualified candidates. I also think the general advice of asking companies to throw out the first number is not universal. A lot of people will struggle when a company anchors a number first, especially in the heat of a job-change, which is super stressful. You should have your target number in mind before you apply and decide your limits before you talk to anyone, when the stress is lower. Some people can cowboy on the spot but most people struggle with that.
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Mar 31, 2020 14:38
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2020 is going to break people's sense of self-worth just like 2008 did. 
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Mar 31, 2020 14:41
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I was just about to crawl out of the pit 2008 had thrown me into too. gently caress.
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Mar 31, 2020 16:01
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Eric the Mauve posted:Echoing the above posts, it’s always worth repeating that if you’re not actually willing to walk away if you don’t get what you want, you’re not negotiating; you’re just trying to persuade someone to give you money. Sure, if this was for like an eBay item. But...we’re talking a job here. It’s how you get money to live. That’s a precious thing.
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Apr 1, 2020 19:55
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Pollyanna posted:Sure, if this was for like an eBay item. But...we’re talking a job here. It’s how you get money to live. That’s a precious thing. Yes, and that's why it's absolutely vital that you have a good alternative to a negotiated deal, per the OP and posted ad nauseum in this thread. Employers know this and take advantage of the power dynamic literally all the time
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Apr 1, 2020 20:44
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Everyone in this thread should be networking as much as they can right now. Job havers and job seekers and people who were just hired or just laid off. The market for jobs is shifting like crazy, lots of places are stopping hiring, and poo poo is just crazy. And most everyone is quarantined on top of that. But you know what? People still want human connection. And networking and connections is how you get the next job, even if you don’t think you need one right now. At the end of 2018, when I knew my job was going away, I was not networking as well as I should have. And getting the next job sucked and then I still had to go get the right job. Now I have that good job for a thankfully cash positive large company, and I am networking like my life depends on it. Not only is it great to have some discussion about something other than COVID-19, these networking groups also understand that people will need help and jobs and are all looking out for each other. It sucks for everyone right now, but I think the connections we make now will help us when each of us inevitably needs it.
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Apr 1, 2020 21:56
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Is there a networking thread? I've always been a top performer but suck poo poo at networking so some tips to get started would be appreciated. And no I'm not some goony bastard lacking in social skills.
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Apr 1, 2020 22:12
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Yeah, I'm trying to retain some optimism but right now the job landscape looks very, very ugly and this whole thread may be irrelevant for a while. If you're unemployed and screaming toward bankruptcy then you have no BATNA and you must accept whatever scraps you are offered.  Which means a lot of us are going to find ourselves shining recruiters' shoes for a while.
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Apr 2, 2020 05:35
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yeah, I'm trying to retain some optimism but right now the job landscape looks very, very ugly and this whole thread may be irrelevant for a while. If you're unemployed and screaming toward bankruptcy then you have no BATNA and you must accept whatever scraps you are offered. Network your rear end off. Or form your choice of company entity and take some of the $300 Billion with a B dollars for small businesses that were part of the third relief wave. It’s like thirty year cheap or free money, mostly loans, but super easy, like two hours or less same day approval. So yes, it sucks. Many companies and industries will change forever, if they survive. Each and every one of you individuals will be okay. Even if you don’t see it right now.
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Apr 2, 2020 05:53
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Ultimate Mango posted:Network your rear end off. Or form your choice of company entity and take some of the $300 Billion with a B dollars for small businesses that were part of the third relief wave. It’s like thirty year cheap or free money, mostly loans, but super easy, like two hours or less same day approval. Your business has to exist as of February 15th so that will not work. Things are very unknown. For a lot of low earners you will make more money for the next 4 months if you are laid off. Then we will see what happens. I know we are still hiring. It will really depend on what industry you are in and where you work though.
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Apr 2, 2020 16:16
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My hope is that the crash course in remote work will open up avenues to some types of workers that weren't around earlier; no more need for relocation to jump ship to a company in another state/country.
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Apr 2, 2020 17:08
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