|
Mad Hamish posted:I'm honestly surprised that there was never some kind of anti-Darkfriend witch-hunt that happened.
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2020 23:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 12:59 |
|
|
JOHN SKELETON posted:Yeah, it would have been cool if there was like some faction that was religiously into hunting Darkfriends. I bet that would have caused some issues for our plucky heroes!!! To be fair they were so ineffective as a threat to the heroes after the first book I'm not surprised they got forgotten. Even in the 4th book the best the White Cloaks can do to Perrin is scowl at him. Edit: I guess the hunt for the Black Ajah in the white tower was a bit of a literal witch hunt though, particularly since it ends in mass executions
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2020 23:56
|
|
|
Mad Hamish posted:I'm honestly surprised that there was never some kind of anti-Darkfriend witch-hunt that happened. ....the whitecloaks?
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 00:30
|
|
|
i think the whitecloaks kind of highlight how actually trying to hunt for darkfriends is sort of a futile effort in a lot of cases. you need to know really specific things about people to even be accurate about it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 00:47
|
|
|
Not really, I mean if somebody looks a little shifty or steps on your boot or something you can be pretty certain they're a darkfriend. It's really not that difficult.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 00:51
|
|
|
oh, dang, you're right. they DID have a pretty good system going there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 01:00
|
|
|
Let's not forget how everything involving Hinderstap was
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 02:04
|
|
|
Johnny Joestar posted:oh, dang, you're right. they DID have a pretty good system going there. I mean everyone they took in for questioning confessed to being a darkfriend
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 02:41
|
|
|
ConfusedUs posted:Ingtar and Verin come to mind. Verin was never a darkfriend. She was like an undercover cop. She infiltrated the Black Ajah with the specific intent of bringing it down, and she did what she had to in order to maintain her cover, for the greater good.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 03:29
|
|
|
She swore herself to the dark for knowledge/power, which given the way the dark is entirely agnostic during the final battle, is arguably as valid as any of the other power-using darkfriends. The dark one doesn't mind a world where all the darkfriends are gone. That's as much a win as any other end to the cycle. Darkfriends are essentially entropists. Lots of them want to be the one true king/queen of randland forever and ever, and that's fine with the dark one since that means the cycle of the wheel is broken. Others want to defeat the dark one forever, and again that's fine with the dark one since that also means the wheel is broken. Satan is just tired of talking to Rand every thousand years, and can you blame him? There's probably a win for the dark one where he gets an impenetrable prison that can never be opened ever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 03:57
|
|
|
Anias posted:She swore herself to the dark for knowledge/power, which given the way the dark is entirely agnostic during the final battle, is arguably as valid as any of the other power-using darkfriends. The dark one doesn't mind a world where all the darkfriends are gone. That's as much a win as any other end to the cycle. Darkfriends are essentially entropists. Lots of them want to be the one true king/queen of randland forever and ever, and that's fine with the dark one since that means the cycle of the wheel is broken. Others want to defeat the dark one forever, and again that's fine with the dark one since that also means the wheel is broken. I might be wrong but I remember it being that Verin was investigating the Black Ajah (not necessarily for the greater good but more because she was just curious about poo poo) got caught and was offered a choice, join or die. So chose to join but used the fact that she joined as an opportunity to root them all out and then, at the moment before her death, destroy them
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 04:19
|
|
|
This is correct, but she was still a Darkfriend. She calls herself one, and she'd know. She was sworn to the Dark One and did evil in his name. Her final strike against the Black Ajah is a redemption, but it doesn't change what she was.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 04:22
|
|
|
She’s up front about it granting her significant leeway as well. She spends most of the middle books Coercing sisters into swearing fealty to Rand, and nearly poisons Cadsuane as well
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 05:12
|
|
|
Said character fucks
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 05:16
|
|
|
Gnoman posted:This is correct, but she was still a Darkfriend. She calls herself one, and she'd know. She was sworn to the Dark One and did evil in his name. Her final strike against the Black Ajah is a redemption, but it doesn't change what she was. You don't understand, people like Verin, that means she can't be a bad person.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 05:19
|
|
|
Spoilers for the Last Battle: Where the gently caress did Moghedian come from? The last I remember, she got sucked into Shadar Logoth during the cleansing, then she's suddenly jumping around impersonating Demandred. Also, what happened to Grendal? After the explosion turned her compulsion back onto her, did Avendiha just keep her around or execute her? I think I was falling asleep during that part of the audiobook because I don't remember.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 08:41
|
|
|
Verin's pretty lucky that she wasn't in the White Tower when the 12 Aes Sedai left with Liandrin, it would have really spoiled most of her plans if she'd had to reveal herself with the others
bell jar fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Mar 11, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 09:18
|
|
|
Vavrek posted:Please post your thoughts here as you read, while not looking at any of our posts. Okay so, I'm only about 40% of the way through The Great Hunt, so here's my brain dump after Eye of the World (and what I know of TGH): - Rand: so far, very generic "chosen one" hero. The first 2/3 of the book was just him whining "wahh I wish I were home" or "wahh I wish I were with Mat and Perrin". Now that I'm far enough into TGH to know that he's The Dragon Reborn, I'm a bit more perked up to know what's going on with him. When Min told him that Egwene wasn't for him in the way he wants, I assumed he would become her Warden (with her becoming an Aes Sedai), but I'm less sure of that now. - Mat: I keep seeing things on the internet about how he's going to be a great hero and protagonist later on, but he just kinda seemed... there, in EOTW. He was like Rand's Sam Gamgee (I know some of the LOTR comparisons are apt and purposeful, based on what I know of Jordan writing EOTW). His character got more interesting once he got the dagger and went all sadboi goth. But now in TGH the dagger is gone and he's back to being just... a normal guy? Dunno at all where his story is going. He seems to be the least interesting of the Three Amigos. - Perrin:  No but really, he's had some interesting development. And now in TGH we find out that Elias was a warden? and Perrin's going to be a sniffer with the Fal Dara Gang? I do want to know more. - The boyz in general: holy hell they whine a lot "wahhh an Aes Sedai wants to help me but I don't trust her, wahhh I wish I were home, wahhh I hate having yellow eyes, wahhh I'm sad because of a dagger" - I know, I know, hero's journey and overcoming having your home basically taken away from you. - Egwene and Nynaeve: okay I guess they whine just as much. Is it that absurd that an Aes Sedai would want to help any of the Emond's Field folks? It's like every nice thing Moiraine (or, now, the other Aes Sedai) tries to do for them, they get angry and complain about it being an Aes Sedai. Yeesh. But, I did have it spoiled for me that they become Aes Sedai themselves, which is no big surprise. I guess it's their own hero's journey having all of those doubts and whatnot. - The general story: The first big chunk of EOTW was very obviously a riff on Lord of the Rings. Once it started coming into it's own, I loved it. I guess what I mean by that is, once the main characters got separated (at one of the river crossings... I can't remember the town they were leaving), their individual characters got to develop a lot more instead of just being The Fellowship of the Wheel. I know that the first book is necessarily just a big overview of the world and introduction to the characters, but it did enough to intrigue me and leave me wanting more. Is Fal Dara going to have to have a fight against the forces of dark, since they're so close to the Blight? Is the gang ever finally going to make it to Tar Valon? Is Rand going to come into his own as a wielder of the one power (I know this is going to happen, now that I know he's The Dragon)? What's Perrin going to do with his Wolfman powers? What's Mat going to do being a milquetoast sidekick? Is Ba'alzamon gone forever (I know this isn't true because of the first part of TGH and also he seems like The Big Bad, and there's 14 more books)? And moving into TGH: what's going on with The Amerlin's retinue of various Ajahs? I guess they're headed out of Fal Dara to head back to Tar Valon? What are the Whitecloaks doing? There was a chapter where Bornhald was directed to go through towns and find darkfriends... oh poo poo is that where the crucified Myrddraal came from? Wait, no, I think Padan Fain hinted at having done that himself... Anyway, there you go, my random thoughts after reading 1000+ pages so far.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 13:56
|
|
|
You’re in for a treat with Mat.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 14:03
|
|
|
COOL CORN posted:- Mat: But now in TGH the dagger is gone and he's back to being just... a normal guy? Dunno at all where his story is going. He seems to be the least interesting of the Three Amigos.  Please post more as you progress with the series. As someone who's been familiar with it for over two decades at this point I always enjoy an opportunity to see it through fresh eyes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 14:05
|
|
|
Counterpoint: don't let everybody beat you into submission believing he's actually as funny as the text thinks he is
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 14:06
|
|
|
To be honest, all the boys flesh out nicely. They’re the best parts of the series.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 14:44
|
|
|
Mat only starts to come into his own when he gets perspective chapters, which takes like two and a half books. Before that, "and Mat, who was also there." is probably not wrong.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 15:34
|
|
|
Vavrek posted:Mat only starts to come into his own when he gets perspective chapters, which takes like two and a half books. Before that, "and Mat, who was also there." is probably not wrong. He spent like 1/4 of the first book asleep in a bunk bed Or awake and moping in a bunk bed
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 15:35
|
|
|
yeah, mat notably doesn't have any chapters dedicated to him until a certain point at which you're going to get plenty all the main cast gets a good amount of characterization, so don't worry about that. the beginning is very definitely tolkein-esque but it definitely ramps into its own territory not long after that
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 15:52
|
|
|
And one of the things that the books lay out in front of you, straight up, first thing, that you're just going to have to accept is that people are naturally extremely suspicious of Aes Sedai. The Power literally broke the world. The Age of Legends was their Garden of Eden and people using The Power destroyed it--with men receiving the bulk of the blame (and all of the insanity), so male channellers receive the brunt of the ill will but female channellers have done themselves no favor in the mean time by isolating themselves or trying to seize political power. Imagine 3000 years of the Catholic Church if they actually could do magic. And then there's ... other reasons ... contributing to that deep seated distrust.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 16:03
|
|
|
VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:And one of the things that the books lay out in front of you, straight up, first thing, that you're just going to have to accept is that people are naturally extremely suspicious of Aes Sedai. That's a good point. And in the prologue when Lews Therin Telamon goes crazy and creates, what was it, Dragonmount or something? That was basically the last straw that led to the gentling of all the men, right?
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 16:12
|
|
|
some of the bellyaching about trusting aes sedai is a little overworked at times but there's absolutely reasons behind why people are usually inherently distrustful of them to some degree. and/or afraid. and yeah, the antics of lews therin and his 'hundred companions' are no small part of why men are regarded as having broken the world
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 16:32
|
|
|
the boys being hayseeds doesn't help. people that live in cities might actually see or interact with an aes sedai once in a while, depending on the city.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 16:56
|
|
|
The Aes Sedai absolutely live up to their reputation, too. They meddle in everything, and think it is their right and duty to do so. Think of when Gareth Bryne talked about getting dressed down by the Amyrlin in front of his whole army. That sort of thing just continues the cycle of distrust. Thousands saw that single event, first-hand.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 17:01
|
|
|
COOL CORN posted:That's a good point. And in the prologue when Lews Therin Telamon goes crazy and creates, what was it, Dragonmount or something? That was basically the last straw that led to the gentling of all the men, right? Oh no, that was just the beginning. Male channellers went insane at varying rates and together caused world-wide tectonic-level damage spread across the span of centuries. Dragonmount? Was just one person, and relatively sane at the end. He teleported to an underpopulated area and killed himself. Most other males did not have that moment of clarity. quote:And the Shadow fell upon the land, and the world was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Mar 11, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 17:03
|
|
|
when you start to hear things about what life was like in the previous age later in the series you really start getting a feel for just how royally hosed up things got for it all to be basically reduced to feudalism
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 17:57
|
|
|
COOL CORN posted:
What was the moment that convinced you that Rand was The Dragon Reborn? I kinda forget how that reveal works.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 18:02
|
|
|
The Neal! posted:To be fair they were so ineffective as a threat to the heroes after the first book I'm not surprised they got forgotten. Even in the 4th book the best the White Cloaks can do to Perrin is scowl at him. I was thinking more as in a social phenomena similar to the European witch hysteria, unrelated to the useless Whitecloaks. I'm just shocked we never see some power-hungry town alderman or something accuse the richest merchant in town of being a Darkfriend, that kind of thing. I think it's absolutely reasonable for the boys to mistrust Aes Sedai, considering the kind of stories they were raised on. Seeing what Aes Sedai are actually like I'd say mistrust is absolutely warranted, it'd be like hearing stories about Jedi all your life and when you finally see one he mind-rapes a dude and then lops a drunkard's arm off for the crime of being aggressively drunk.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 18:07
|
|
|
Mad Hamish posted:I was thinking more as in a social phenomena similar to the European witch hysteria, unrelated to the useless Whitecloaks. I'm just shocked we never see some power-hungry town alderman or something accuse the richest merchant in town of being a Darkfriend, that kind of thing. I think we see hints of that, what with like the town troublemakers putting the Dragon's Fang mark on doors. There's also references to how some people welcome the Whitecloaks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 18:09
|
|
|
VikingofRock posted:What was the moment that convinced you that Rand was The Dragon Reborn? I kinda forget how that reveal works. When the Amyrlin pulls him into her chamber at Fal Dara and says "You're the Dragon Reborn"
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 18:10
|
|
|
Johnny Joestar posted:when you start to hear things about what life was like in the previous age later in the series you really start getting a feel for just how royally hosed up things got for it all to be basically reduced to feudalism Or when you realize that those passages like the one I quoted were not poetic license but like ... literal.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 18:11
|
|
|
VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:Or when you realize that those passages like the one I quoted were not poetic license but like ... literal. Which I guess also explains why the people from Emond's Field, who are descendants of Manetheren, have no idea who they are Like, Jordan frontloads a lot of backstory, but it didn't really start to click how significant it was until things start revealing later (like that tidbit, like all the Aes Sedai getting together and talking about the men from the past, etc.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 18:18
|
|
|
The events Moiraine describe happen to Manetheren during the Trolloc Wars, ~1000 years since The Breaking. I mean, still ~2000 years in Emond's Field's past. The post-Breaking world tries to pull itself back together only to get smashed further beyond recognition by both historic/human forces and those of the Shadow.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 18:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 12:59 |
|
|
VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:The events Moiraine describe happen to Manetheren during the Trolloc Wars, ~1000 years since The Breaking. I mean, still ~2000 years in Emond's Field's past. The post-Breaking world tries to pull itself back together only to get smashed further beyond recognition by both historic/human forces and those of the Shadow. Ah jeez that really puts the scale into perspective. I didn't realize the Trolloc Wars were AFTER The Breaking. I've been loving Daniel Green's videos, but they're mostly very spoilery so I've been avoiding them. I need to watch this though: (posting so I remember later) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQYJCofVxWk
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2020 18:24
|
|