|
CitizenKeen posted:Absolutely. It's a high player agency, high character competency mechanic. It's meant to head off the "Well, my character would have done blah blah blah...", and to allow every character to participate in every scene. If your skill isn't immediately relevant, can you think of a way you could have prepared for this scene using that skill? Double post, sorry, but just to comment since you ninja'd me. I would never say you can't attach it to any system, nor that you shouldn't. I've put it in 4e games and it god drat owns. You just need to understand what tweaks you're doing to the systems involved and how that affects things. As you said to my point (1), it's a very good tool for giving players agency. But also Blades is supposed to be kind of gritty so it functions as part of what would be "health" in another game. That agency is very much in the players' hands, but it's a husbanded resources that they game with. If, in your example, you put it on a different economy, you're gonna wind up with a different kind of gameplay. Which might very well be exactly what you want and is awesome. Again, I did it in D&D where I just handed that out like candy cause it was all awesome heroes being awesome. It was great. But it's a thing you should keep in mind when house-ruling that it might have knock-on effects. Deciding if it's a meta-currency of if it's piggy-backing on an already existing thing in the game should at least be something you consider and then decide based on what kind of play you want to encourage, is basically what I'm saying.
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 19:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 22:20 |
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:Yeah off the cuff the only problems with inserting the flashback system from Blades are 1) tone, cause while I love the mechanic it's based around making things feel like a heist so it probably wouldn't work in, say, a horror game that actively wanted to reduce player agency ; and 2) as written it's built around the stress economy, so if you don't have at least some equivalent of that, things are going to change dramatically : Blades' characters are fundamentally tied to stress as a mechanic for a lot of things, so you can't just staple it onto like 3E D&D and expect it to still function. That said, you could probably get around the stress mechanic as long as you stick to the "everything has risk" concept from blades. "I'm gonna let you roll that persuade check on the guard a week ago, however if you fail the check then the guard will have been ready for you and it'll make the current situation much worse instead of better!" Flashbacks are great and could work fine in any game system. The real big thing is just the flow of the game. It kinda feels like "cheating" if you're used to the traditional D&D style way of having to declare everything ahead of time. And some groups really like arguing out plans ahead of time and don't want to be able to just cheat through it with "oh yeah we totally planned on X". But I think a hybrid where you come up with a plan, but then when the plan goes off the rails you use flashbacks to come up with a plan-B, I think that's perfect.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 19:59
|
|
|
The problem is contradictions. As in “if the guard had been mad at his boss, his boss would have fired him, and then he would have put a different guard on shift, but since you already saw that particular guard is on shift tonight, that can’t happen.” Just stating it’s raining outside seems like it can block a ton of flashbacks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 20:25
|
|
|
O hyphz.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 20:29
|
|
|
i once had a player use a flashback to not only save themselves from harm, but also create a new friendly npc out of an enemy. that npc went on to be a full on player character too. flashbacks are great
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 20:33
|
|
|
CitizenKeen posted:The Blades flashback system works for any system that requires a skill roll, and lets you recontextualize that skill roll. Totally doable but you want to bake some kind of default options in instead of entirely relying on player/GM improv skill. e: I know blades has ways it handles this I mean if you were porting it into another system you need to pull in a lot more framework than you might think. e2: beaten multiple times by Xiahou Dun Splicer fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Mar 12, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 21:03
|
|
|
Serf posted:i once had a player use a flashback to not only save themselves from harm, but also create a new friendly npc out of an enemy. that npc went on to be a full on player character too. flashbacks are great This is making me realize I can use the new collaborative storytelling tools in PF2e to add flashbacks to the infiltration subsystem. gently caress. gently caress! PF2e IS SO GOOD.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 21:10
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:
This is what I'm trying to figure out. Here's the DW hack I'm looking at. I'm probably just gonna staple together the 9 wound track from this with the stress, and trauma systems. I might need to fiddle with starting wounds and starting stress numbers.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 22:09
|
|
|
hyphz posted:The problem is contradictions. As in “if the guard had been mad at his boss, his boss would have fired him, and then he would have put a different guard on shift, but since you already saw that particular guard is on shift tonight, that can’t happen.” This may be the most hyphz thing I've ever read.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 22:45
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:If you can figure out a way to do this in a high-crunch game where your choices are tactics-first rather than narrative-first, I probably wouldn't play any other TRPG for a year. The "Everybody's Deckers" solution could work just fine if you had the game take place almost entirely in Cyberspace, just go full gonzo mashing together bits and pieces of TRON, Digimon, Dot Hack, Gundam Build Divers, and Gridman(and I guess some of the better ideas the Sword Art Online franchise has) into a blender
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 22:54
|
|
|
hyphz posted:The problem is contradictions. As in “if the guard had been mad at his boss, his boss would have fired him, and then he would have put a different guard on shift, but since you already saw that particular guard is on shift tonight, that can’t happen.” I feel like being charitable and helpful today. So, your first problem isn't a problem, because the player is either successful or unsuccessful at their attempt to do a flashback thing: if success, then you, as the GM, do not get to decide "oh he would have been fired." That's not an inevitability. The player describes something that changes the scene that exists as you and the players have already described it, by modifying something that hasn't yet been described. So, until the player said "I got this guard pissed at his boss last week", the GM and players had not yet established this guard's relationship with his boss. Now, you, as the GM, do not just decide to contradict your player's unqualified success by inventing reasons why it didn't or couldn't have worked. Instead, you roll with it. The guard is mad at his boss, but hasn't been fired. That's totally a thing. I've been mad at a boss before, without being fired! If you, as the GM, know things the players don't, that contradict what they're trying to do, you can either decrease the odds of their success (if they're rolling), or advise them before they attempt to change this specific thing "oh, there's a reason why that specific alteration isn't possible, try something else," or better still, just roll with it and change your plans. For example: you know, but the players don't know, that all the guards in this temple report directly to an inanimate slab of sapient rock, that gives them orders telepathically. He simply hasn't got a boss, and you don't want to dump this important hidden fact from your adventure. Fine. You tell the players "OK, cool idea, it can't work for a reason I don't want to say, though, so: the roll to trick the guard into being mad at his boss auto-failed" or "think of someone else to get the guard mad at" or even "OK let's go with, the guard is mad at another guard who works here, let's go with that, OK?" Or change your plans. 'Hmm. Ok, in addition to teh guards, there's a captain, who also reports to the Demon Slab. That works OK. Just adds a new mini-boss for the players to defeat. One who has conflicts with her subordinates. Cool." And if the player's roll or attempt was unsuccessful, then they never got the guard mad at their boss anyway, or, it backfired in some way (the guard caught on to the trick and is now extra suspicious), or whatever. See? There's always grey areas in any scene that are left to the imagination or not fully described. Always. Those are the areas the players and GM can work with when doing this flashback thing. You can even decide to allow the players to change what has been described. There are even games with this built in explicitly! Complete with potentially adding or subtracting enemies and allies from a fight, retroactively, just "poof" - the GM said there were six thugs here, but Bob spent a resource he's been saving, and now there's just five thugs here, forget what I just said. There were always five. Good job, Bob! Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Mar 12, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 23:11
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:I feel like being charitable and helpful today.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 23:19
|
|
|
Splicer posted:I start to jump from my chair "No don't-" I feel a hand on my shoulder "Hold, Splicer. He needs to learn the way we all did." I nod. Leperflesh will understand soon enough. Nah. Hyphz says a lot of stuff that I find flabbergasting, but they're always fairly nice about it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 23:26
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Nah. Hyphz says a lot of stuff that I find flabbergasting, but they're always fairly nice about it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 23:32
|
|
|
Splicer posted:I know. That somehow makes it worse. Agreed, honestly it probably would be for the best if he was banned from this thread
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2020 23:53
|
|
|
I would rather the people who get aggressive over very little get banned before hyphz, who isn’t a bad person and can easily be ignored if he’s annoying you
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 00:00
|
|
|
thetoughestbean posted:I would rather the people who get aggressive over very little get banned before hyphz, who isn’t a bad person and can easily be ignored if he’s annoying you It's more because of the trend that happens where his misunderstandings cause multipage derailings of the thread
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 00:03
|
|
|
Threads can only get derailed if something interesting was happening in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 01:42
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:If you can figure out a way to do this in a high-crunch game where your choices are tactics-first rather than narrative-first, I probably wouldn't play any other TRPG for a year. I did a cyberpunk game where often there'd be situations where 1-2 deckers were in a cyberspace map next to the rest of the party on a meatspace map, with the hacking rules playing out like combat turns but using skill checks for attacks. Worked pretty well for a crunchy system with a mixed party, and "defend our teammates lifeless bodies for x turns while they walk the matrix" was a pretty fun encounter to pull many times. But it helped we were on roll20 so having 2 maps set up was easier to do.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 01:48
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:It's more because of the trend that happens where his misunderstandings cause multipage derailings of the thread I hate myself just enough that I love 4 pages of hyphz not understanding the idea of people showing up to have fun and thus not going out of their way to gently caress up the game. The fact that it might as well be part of the almanac it's so regular just makes it all the sweeter to my cold, dead heart.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 01:49
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:I feel like being charitable and helpful today. I mean, this is really just a matter of DM perspective. There's different ways to play. Some DMs want to build a game world or challenge or mystery and then throw down the gauntlet and see if the PCs can beat it or die trying, and be unrelenting in the rules and the world as predetermined as a result. Premades can be run like this, and I think its kinda the old school dnd perspective. Then you have the story-first, roll with the changes kinda DM that just wants to have fun and also empower the players ideas and embrace them, even if it requires changing or fudging some plans. This is independent of the rules you use, although more crunchy systems favor the former mentality and more narrative systems like blades favor the latter. And with blades you're basically encouraged NOT to do DM prep to make it easier to embrace the latter mentality. But I've also had games where I did write a big campaign and have all these pre-crafted detailed NPCs with existing complications and relationships which might contradict some idea a player has. Most games are gonna be somewhere in the middle, even, so its really just like, personal dm style and party preference. Some people don't want the fudge and want to run a medieval survival simulation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 01:56
|
|
|
Ah. You're new here. So maybe I will get my entertainment.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 02:01
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:Agreed, honestly it probably would be for the best if he was banned from this thread absolutely not hyphz is baffling but he's not even close to the worst or most disruptive personality in this subforum, and TG is, frankly, one of the more pleasant reading experiences on SA to begin with
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 05:29
|
|
|
I'm way more of an actual rear end in a top hat than hyphz, and I'm just kind of an obnoxious poo poo-poster. They're just very, very silly.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 05:40
|
|
|
there are a lot of people in this community who have helped me understand and refine my own positions on game design and frankly the people who disagree with me or don't even speak the same language and have constant, mutual misunderstandings have probably done more on that front than the ones on the same page
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 05:41
|
|
|
I like trying to explain things to Hyphz every so often. It’s useful to look at a rule from the perspective of someone who’s not making the same assumptions as everyone else. If the worst problem we have to deal with is Hyphz asking what the limits on flashbacks are (and there are textual answers to this question that can be cited), that’s a good thing!
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 07:07
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:Agreed, honestly it probably would be for the best if he was banned from this thread
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 08:37
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:And with blades you're basically encouraged NOT to do DM prep to make it easier to embrace the latter mentality. But I've also had games where I did write a big campaign and have all these pre-crafted detailed NPCs with existing complications and relationships which might contradict some idea a player has. Leperflesh's post was specifically in response to hyphz comments on how Flashbacks work in Blades in the Dark. You are hitting on the root cause of the issue though; hyphz perennially struggles with comprehending Blades and Powered by the Apocalypse and similar games where The Fiction is a firm rule modified and extrapolated on by The Conversation and any in-character actions, and where players are supposed to be acting in good faith and pushing for a more interesting narrative above any self-gratification. It's apparently because his soul has been molded into the shape of a perfect icosahedron from playing years of D&D with cartoon-stereotypes of gaming munchkins, who have convinced him that any room for ambiguity or creativity will be abused and that means the game sucks and it's his personal fault and failing as a GM for letting it happen. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Mar 13, 2020 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 12:50
|
|
|
Hyphz is the nice light side Dr. Jekyll version of Frank Trollman
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 14:21
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:Agreed, honestly it probably would be for the best if he was banned from this thread Hyphz is strange, but gently caress you, buddy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 15:14
|
|
|
I'm also going to cast a "no" vote on thread banning hyphz. Not on the grounds of  but I do think everything he posts is earnest and comes from a desire to understand something new and not because he's trolling.At the very least, any extended discussions end by just not replying to him when you're tired of going in circles, and he doesn't engage in any backbiting or telling people to gently caress off for disliking a game. Now about that Pokemon RPG...
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 16:10
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:Agreed, honestly it probably would be for the best if he was banned from this thread Why are you so broken?
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 16:17
|
|
|
Nuns with Guns posted:Now about that Pokemon RPG... 
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 16:41
|
|
|
Oh, about a couple hundred pages, with the Pokedex.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 21:24
|
|
|
I'm severely put off by even a discussion of whether a particular poster "should be banned from the thread" as if this were a thing we were able to vote on here. If you think a poster is violating rules, report them. That's the only criteria, and it's not for posters to determine the result, by consensus or otherwise. This is not what we do when operating a safe space.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 21:33
|
|
|
Troll or not, conversations about Hyphz not getting it usually end up actually helping me understand game concepts better and I appreciate them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 22:09
|
|
|
Banning hyphz would deprive this thread of the ability to communicate with and learn from someone who's accidentally logged on from a parallel universe.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 22:14
|
|
|
As much as I don't get hyphz's experience and perspective, I think it's weird and condescending for people who don't think he's a troll to nevertheless somehow believe he is a broken person that needs to be cast out.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 22:58
|
|
|
hyphz is weird as hell but I'm not threadbanning him Ettin may contravene me but that's My Take
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 22:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 22:20 |
|
|
I’ve greatly enjoyed the discussion around hyphz’s posting, even if we don’t see eye to eye about how TTRPGs work.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2020 23:01
|
|
