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Which season should the next animated reconstruction be from? This poll is closed. |
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| Season 1 (Marco Polo) |
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13 | 18.57% |
| Season 2 (The Crusade) |
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1 | 1.43% |
| Season 3 (Galaxy 4/The Myth Makers/The Daleks' Master Plan/The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve/The Celestial Toymaker/The Savages) |
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25 | 35.71% |
| Season 4 (The Smugglers/The Highlanders/The Underwater Menace/The Evil of the Daleks) |
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16 | 22.86% |
| Season 5 (The Abominable Snowmen/The Web of Fear/The Wheel in Space) |
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11 | 15.71% |
| Season 6 (The Space Pirates) |
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4 | 5.71% |
| Total: | 70 votes | ||
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WSAENOTSOCK posted:The thing is, even if he fixes it, since everybody loving hates it, everybody's going to think he's back-pedaling because of the fan reaction whether or not that's what he's actually doing. They don't. You do; this thread does; that satisfies what you want and you look no further. Verity is my favorite Doctor Who podcast but they're not the only ones delighted by this change to the canon and completely unconcerned about the Doctor supposedly now being some sort of unique chosen one. Especially since that is neither what the show presented to us, nor is it clear who the Doctor is. We've moved from the very early series, where the Doctor's past was mysterious, through the Time Lord era where the show defined where the Doctor came from and gave us more than many fans at the time wanted about Gallifrey's culture, through the Cartmel "more than just a Time Lord" attempt to remystify the Doctor, to the TV Movie's "half-human" and that being somehow critically connected to the Eye of Harmony and the Doctor's eyes, to the new series, which has been frankly inconsistent on whether the Doctor's just a Time Lord or special for being the last Time Lord or special by reputation or by behavior, to Moffat's "orphan raised in a barn in the rural outskirts of the Citadel", to our latest development, which is that we have no idea of the Doctor's origin again but she's not a Time Lord, or rather, the Time Lords are what they are because of something they took from her. Worst-case, we're right back at "half-human" again, and the next series is going to attempt to use this retcon to explain that as well. Even if that happens, we're still better off than the "Time Lords were just humans all along" story some people were anticipating. Though i suppose we could still get that at any time in the future. The "divine right of birth" thing is just fantastically odd. The Doctor--our Doctor, the one in the entire series with the probable exception of Doctor Ruth but including the Valeyard I guess--didn't remember any of these details about her past, and behaved as if she were a Time Lord by birth. At best, how she was treated by the other Time Lords and the breadth of her knowledge might be explained by this retcon, but nothing about her behavior or the fact that she is the Doctor because she chose to be has been changed. The Doctor just doubled-down on that in the last episode by rejecting the idea that this changes who she is! Adding a period where the pre-Doctor Doctor may have been a CIA agent doing bad stuff just makes the Doctor's choice to become the Doctor all the more important. Whatever damage has been done to the Doctor as a character pales in comparison to the damage done by having Nine haunted by the decision to genocide both Daleks and Time Lords, and the series got through that OK. There's so many flaws in how Chibnall assembles plots and handles characterization that I really don't understand why this is the sticking point for so many people. Chibnall can't "ruin my childhood," and my main complaint about The Timeless Children is that he has yet to figure out how to write a genuinely satisfying ending. (Well, that and he didn't seem to get the point of Day of the Doctor at all.) Rochallor posted:Also, let's talk about The Deadly Assassin. What does it have in common with whatever this recent episode was called? It takes place on Gallifrey and there's a retcon (though I'd argue that since Assassin doesn't really change anything it's just... continuity.) Inventing objections to Deadly Assassin now doesn't really address my point that at the time it aired, diehard fans were up in arms. Here's an example: https://archivetvmusings.blog/tag/the-deadly-assassin/ A few choice quotes: "The trial of the Doctor was another R. Holmes farce. The ‘War Games’ trial was so excellent, but of course this had to be in Earth norms, and was pathetic. Then later the Doctor and co. go to look at the public register system to see that really happened at the ceremony. Now we were, I believe, dealing with Time Lords, so why couldn’t they and look at a time scanner and see the truth?" "Another fact forgotten is that Time Lords are immortal. In ‘War Games’ the Doctor said they could ‘live forever barring accidents’. This had never been changed until ‘ Morbius’ where we learnt that the Time Lords used the Elixir if they had trouble regenerating. So why didn’t the Master use the Elixir? We also saw in ‘Morbius’ eleven incarnations of the Doctor (‘though in ‘Three Doctors’ Hartnell was rightly the first) so now we’re left with one more Doctor, according to ‘Deadly Assassin’." "I’ve spoken to many people, many of whom were not members, and they all said how this story shattered their illusions of the Time Lords, and lowered them to ordinary people. Once, Time Lords were all-powerful, awe-inspiring beings, capable of imprisoning planets forever in force fields, defenders of truth and good (when called in). Now, they are petty, squabbling, feeble-minded, doddering old fools. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE MAGIC OF DOCTOR WHO?" I suspect most or all of us today don't share these concerns about the episode, but they undeniably recognize what that story is doing. The trial is indeed a Bob Holmes farce, with the Doctor doing courtroom art and the whole thing circumvented by the Doctor invoking the Time Lord constitution, which evidently permits the murderer of a Lord President to avoid prosecution by attempting to succeed him. The idea that such an important trial would depend merely on interviews and not using a tool like the Matrix to determine what happened is odd, to say the least, and does contribute to the general re-envisioning of the Time Lords from mysterious and all-powerful to ancient, doddering, and corrupt, as well as unimaginative and stolid. And clearly Jan Vincent-Rudzki correctly identified the plan (after abandoned) to create a future story around a "post-limit" regeneration, a keen enough observation that I'll forgive him missing that the Master has clearly suffered multiple "accidents" and is certainly not dying from old age. The criticism of the regeneration limit is a fair one, though, given future canon: Underworld (which I hate to cite as evidence for anything) shows us a form of recycled/regeneration that appears to indicate that death from aging was solved by the Time Lords a long time ago, so why have Borusa desperate to attain immortality? This created more problems than it solved for the show, and it wasn't necessary. Have the Master be dying due to injuries that cannot be regenerated from, not due to an arbitrary limit on regenerations! The point being that Bob Holmes very deliberately wanted to make this change to how the Time Lords were depicted, and for the most part it has stuck, with even The End of Time's powerful Time Lords getting undone by Hell Bent. This new history of the Time Lords and the presence of agents from the earlier days of their rule, if it turns out to be true, opens up the possibility for a lot of new stories within canon about who the Time Lords were. I suspect I agree with much of the thread in wishing that we had a better showrunner overseeing those new stories. But this latest Doctor's past retcon no more ruined the magic of Doctor Who than Bob Holmes did in the seventies. And in terms of the imaginative space available in the Doctor Who canon, it's a far more generous retcon than Assassin was.
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Mar 14, 2020 19:45
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The Robert Holmes stuff didn't ruin the show because it depicted the Time Lords as stodgy non-interventionists stuck in their ways and content to observe. Which is why the Doctor said he originally left Gallifrey in the first place, because of the desire to explore and make new discoveries. The Chibnall thing fundamentally alters the character of the Doctor, as has been stated numerous times by others previously, from "person who became special because of their deeds and heroic acts" to "person who was special from birth". There's a slight difference between being upset/disappointed about that, and grumbling about "the Time Lords were initially depicted as godlike beings but are actually a bunch of stodgy old farts".
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Mar 14, 2020 20:03
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Did anyone else leave that episode assuming Ko Shamus was another pre-Hartnell Doctor like Ruth?
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Mar 14, 2020 20:17
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The nature of the show allows any head writer to leave their imprint on it by the way they write their version of the character, which regeneration allows a lot of leeway with- David Tennant's Doctor is different to Matt Smith's is different to Peter Capaldi's, etc. Steven Moffat once said something to the effect of, when you write on the show or act on the show, for the time you're doing that the show is yours, or something a bit pithier than that maybe. With this Timeless Child stuff, though, Chibnall isn't just saying "this is what Doctor Who was when I was working on it" he's saying "this is what Doctor Who is forever now". This isn't necessarily a bad thing (The Tenth Planet said the same thing, and The War Games, and The Deadly Assassin and etc) but on the face of it it seems kind of pointless. I guess it means the character has a million billion years of hidden regenerations to draw plots from, and the Doctor has a people out there to go looking for, but is that really worth detonating the dynamic where the Master was like an evil version of the Doctor, or making all those times Moffat wrote "regeneration disabled" or "dying of old age" or "too injured to regenerate" retroactively really silly because actually he could regenerate the whole time but just forgot? Like how cool can this race of Timeless Children really be?
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Mar 14, 2020 23:32
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That was a great post.
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Mar 14, 2020 23:40
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Narsham posted:They don't. You do; this thread does; that satisfies what you want and you look no further. While I hate the changes, you do have a point. For example I and most of this thread hated the Rose/10 stuff, but for the vast majority of fandom that was their favorite era, Rose is their favorite companion, and 10 is their favorite Doctor. They gladly ship Rose and 10 1/2 living in Pete's World. So just because we and a lot of the grognards on youtube hate it, doesn't mean it won't be accepted. Narsham posted:"WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE MAGIC OF DOCTOR WHO?" 30/10/1976 – The Time Lords are depicted as doddery old men. Doctor Who dies.
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Mar 14, 2020 23:57
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Here is another example of fantastic writing & voice acting. It's from the unbound "what if" line of Big Finish Doctor Who stories. Can't endorse this one enough but saying why would potentially spoil it. It's cheap as a coffee, go in blind. https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-unbound-sympathy-for-the-devil-363 Starring the late Nicholas Courtney too.
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Mar 15, 2020 01:04
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David Warner is always amazing, too.
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Mar 15, 2020 02:14
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Astroman posted:While I hate the changes, you do have a point. For example I and most of this thread hated the Rose/10 stuff, but for the vast majority of fandom that was their favorite era, Rose is their favorite companion, and 10 is their favorite Doctor. They gladly ship Rose and 10 1/2 living in Pete's World. So just because we and a lot of the grognards on youtube hate it, doesn't mean it won't be accepted. That's what I mean when I say we shouldn't take "oh the next showrunner will just ignore that" as a given. Sure, it's possible that the next showrunner will ignore it or retcon it themselves. It's also possible the next showrunner will go "that's such good poo poo" snd expand upon it. We won't know until it happens, but people shouldn't be so quick to push "the next showrunner" as a quick way to dismiss complaints.
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Mar 15, 2020 02:16
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You don't want a new showrunner picked until the BBC loses the TV license revenue stream. Otherwise there won't be motivation to get someone actually competent.
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Mar 15, 2020 02:41
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DancingShade posted:You don't want a new showrunner picked until the BBC loses the TV license revenue stream. Otherwise there won't be motivation to get someone actually competent.
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Mar 15, 2020 04:20
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WSAENOTSOCK posted:Can we not, with this? This will go nowhere good. Well this is a discussion thread to discuss things. You're welcome to ignore me as someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. Certainly I don't have a production background. If anything I'm disappointed because I was excited for both Jodie and Chibnall. It all looked fantastic and exciting. Then the series aired and *sounds of balloon deflating*
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Mar 15, 2020 04:25
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Err, in meaningless continuity wank, I've just realised this means that the Valeyard would lie somewhere in the Doctor's past.
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Mar 15, 2020 07:41
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Barry the Sprout posted:Err, in meaningless continuity wank, I've just realised this means that the Valeyard would lie somewhere in the Doctor's past. The universe edited out the Valeyard. As a byproduct poor Melanie had a very bad end. https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-unbound-he-jests-at-scars-365 For a very long time, possibly forever. Sorry hosed up the quote. When will it end? Millions of centuries, possibly never. DancingShade fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 07:48
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Has the Valeyard ever really worked as character? As a symbol he's a fine antagonist to the Sixth and Seventh Doctors, but I mean as an actual person with interiority? I don't mind Eddie Robson's take on the character in A Very Dark Thing, where he's characterised by a fear of losing his identity and becoming the Doctor again, and they effectively play it as a kind of dementia, but that's basically a mental illness take on the Beevers Master again. I'll laugh so so hard if this plot is actually leading up to some kind of Valeyard reveal.
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Mar 15, 2020 08:39
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Open Source Idiom posted:Has the Valeyard ever really worked as character? As a symbol he's a fine antagonist to the Sixth and Seventh Doctors, but I mean as an actual person with interiority? I feel like, to figure out if the Valeyard's 'ever worked', you have to figure out if you mean the actual by-name Valeyard, or the concept of, basically, 'evil incarnation of the Doctor'. Far as I know, most of the stories that tried to use the Actual Factual By-Name Valeyard fall apart when it comes to the character himself. But you've also got similar characters on a thematic level, like the Dream Doctor in Amy's Choice or even arguably the Cyber-Doctor in Nightmare in Steel. Which are fun to have around for a bit, but haven't really stuck around for long enough to have that 'interiority' explored. And I would argue that might be because, if you want a story to happen with the Doctor confronting an evil incarnation, it's generally more interesting to have them be a one-off out of additional circumstances for the Doctor to deal with (which even the Valeyard was, as far as the show goes). Meanwhile, if you want an evil counterpart tot he Doctor who actually does have an internal life, thoughts and history... well, why not just use the Master? It's not exactly the same thing, but the Master's close enough to work in like 90% of all cases.
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Mar 15, 2020 10:07
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At this point the Master is over-used and the Rani is extremely under-used. Hell the Meddling Monk is super ultra extremely under used. Or for a more benign time lord rogue character how about Drax?
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Mar 15, 2020 10:15
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DancingShade posted:At this point the Master is over-used and the Rani is extremely under-used. I feel like the Rani could work really well as a counterpart for Thirteen. Not just because they're both women, but because Thirteen's overall personality is basically 'tinkerer, not great with people but she's really trying', which could be a really neat thing to put up against the Rani, who isn't really 'evil' so much as 'uncaring about other life'.
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Mar 15, 2020 10:47
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DancingShade posted:At this point the Master is over-used and the Rani is extremely under-used. The Rani and the Valeyard are used exactly as much as they should be, i.e. not at all. They both just answer the question: "What if the Master was crap?", and half the time the Master is already answering that.
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Mar 15, 2020 19:36
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An Ounce of Gold posted:Doctor WHO Narsham posted:Yes, instead of being a mysterious time-traveller who can regenerate 12 times, and then a mysterious time-traveller who can regenerate more than 12 times, she's now a mysterious time-traveller who has already regenerated a lot more than 12 times... Narsham posted:There's so many flaws in how Chibnall assembles plots and handles characterization... That was a lot and to match, I have carefully planned my response: Chibad
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Mar 15, 2020 19:56
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Trial of the Valeyard is the best Valeyard story https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-trial-of-the-valeyard-929
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Mar 16, 2020 02:43
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https://twitter.com/roy_gill/status/1239528353557876737?s=20
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Mar 16, 2020 17:15
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cargohills posted:The Rani and the Valeyard are used exactly as much as they should be, i.e. not at all. Both of them have different motivations from the Master, and the Rani especially could theoretically be interesting. The Meddling Monk had two interesting appearances, after all, and the limits of his ambition were "get really rich like Biff in BTTF2"
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Mar 16, 2020 20:27
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Put the Master and the Rani in the same TARDIS and the bickering is simply wonderful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4GVCiNTFDc
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Mar 16, 2020 21:08
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The Rani was a cool character in concept and loving awful in execution, but I adore her spot-on analysis of The Master being somebody who would get dizzy walking in a straight line. 
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Mar 16, 2020 22:21
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Jerusalem posted:The Rani was a cool character in concept and loving awful in execution, but I adore her spot-on analysis of The Master being somebody who would get dizzy walking in a straight line. Also her TARDIS interior was fantastic.
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Mar 16, 2020 22:38
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Also her TARDIS interior was fantastic. Best time rotor EVER
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Mar 17, 2020 06:47
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Astroman posted:Best time rotor EVER Agreed. In one of the 8th doctor novels (Gallifrey Chronicles I think?) it was mentioned President Romana's TARDIS exterior looked like a solid block of carved ice. Never described the rotor but the imagination tends to wander.
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Mar 17, 2020 09:04
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Mar 17, 2020 10:41
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Lookit that gurn.
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Mar 17, 2020 10:44
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https://twitter.com/bigfinish/status/1239985326535385088?s=20 https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/big-finish-production-update https://twitter.com/bigfinish/status/1239993130923053057?s=20 Davros1 fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Mar 17, 2020 |
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Mar 17, 2020 20:05
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LIV! https://twitter.com/DWpages/status/1239988576382865409?s=20
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Mar 18, 2020 00:48
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This trailer's awesome! https://twitter.com/bigfinish/status/1240216375135621120?s=20
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Mar 18, 2020 13:51
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loving hell that's a great tease.
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Mar 18, 2020 23:16
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Apparently some big finish info leaked earlier today. They've asked people to keep it hush hush til the reveal tomorrow...but if that info just so happened to cross my path, I wouldn't say no to seeing it
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Mar 18, 2020 23:57
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Spoil it?
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Mar 19, 2020 00:05
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The leaked info is that there's going to be new Lost Stories featuring Tom Baker, including Return of the Cybermen, the original script that was rewritten by Robert Holmes to become Revenge of the Cybermen.
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Mar 19, 2020 00:35
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If anyone ever wanted to read Virgin Publishing's last NA, which was also the first 8th Doctor novel, "The Dying Days", author Lance Parkin has put it up, for only 24 hours https://lancejparkin.files.wordpress.com/2020/03/the-dying-days-2013.pdf
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Mar 19, 2020 01:23
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2 Lost Stories announced: Return of the Cybermen and The Doomsday Contract, both starring Tom, out Nov 2021 https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/lost-doctor-who-story-return-of-the-cybermen-will-return
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Mar 19, 2020 17:11
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 07:46 |
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Fun Easter egg from the Faceless Ones: And a lovely story from the Popbitch mailout: quote:"I used to work in an office on Haymarket with both a front and back entrance. When going for a cigarette, I used to take the back entrance so I wouldn't be standing outside on the main road. I certainly didn't expect for the lift doors to open on the ground floor to be confronted by Sylvester McCoy who was trying to get in, explaining to a security guard he was there for a meeting. 
The_Doctor fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Mar 20, 2020 |
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Mar 19, 2020 23:57
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