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Owling Howl posted:Doesn't explain GMO opposition. If the EU is opposed to pesticides they should ban them. Banning GMOs in order to ban the subset of pesticides that use GMOs is an absurd roundabout method to use. The EU is not opposed to pesticides at all, is my point.
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Mar 14, 2020 21:03
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I wonder if if propping up rural communities is actually an effect of PDOs. It seems to me that they result in shifting wealth between different rural areas, rather than acting as a net subsidy. In the case of Feta cheese someone mentioned the result was to benefit Greek farmers at the expensive of Danes. While I imagine Greek farmers probably had lower incomes than their Danish counterparts and therefore the income redistribution in that case was progressive, I'll bet there are other instances where it was regressive.
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Mar 14, 2020 21:13
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Randarkman posted:What the gently caress's wrong about proppin up rural communities? Goons have a tendency to fetishise the city and have a total failure to comprehend the alternative (like I dunno, cities are loving expensive?), hating the countryside is one of those Shibboleths of Goondom.
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Mar 14, 2020 22:57
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If there were no cities then we would be anarcho primitivists and it would be much better than now, but if there was no rural then everyone would starve, makes u think
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Mar 14, 2020 23:33
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The people hating on rural living are extrapolating from what it's like living in a suburb or exurb, but living in a small village is really nothing like that. It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's not necessarily some evil, inefficient way of living.
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Mar 14, 2020 23:38
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OwlFancier posted:If there were no cities then we would be anarcho primitivists and it would be much better than now, but if there was no rural then everyone would starve, makes u think Agribusiness worker can and do commute to work from cities. The villages serve no purpose and there is absolutely no reason to artificially keep them alive out of some weird romanticism. We already raised urbanization from something like 1% to 80% and the last few % are not going to be any different. PT6A posted:It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's not necessarily some evil, inefficient way of living. Akshually, they are. They are very wasteful and damaging to the environment. They are also the last bastion of reactionary politics and mainly what keeps the ghouls in power in most of Europe. Literally evil.
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Mar 15, 2020 00:19
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Having a family summer home in one is something most city people who try it love though. Its a bit like Americans in the Mid-West having lakehouses for summer time. Its worth even renting one for a few weeks a year just to escape from the city. The rural lifestyle might be a bit claustrophobic full time, buts definitely worth trying for a holiday.
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Mar 15, 2020 00:41
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Blut posted:Having a family summer home in one is something most city people who try it love though. Its a bit like Americans in the Mid-West having lakehouses for summer time. Its worth even renting one for a few weeks a year just to escape from the city. The rural lifestyle might be a bit claustrophobic full time, buts definitely worth trying for a holiday. 
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Mar 15, 2020 01:48
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Having a summer home is different from living in a village, though. A nice village, unlike a suburb, is basically urbanism in a small scale. Everything you need is right there and it's distributed over a very small area so it's easy to walk or cycle to do most things. Even if you're a bit out of town, it's still very close compared to loving anything in a suburb. When I lived in a village, the "drive" to the grocery store (provided you didn't want to walk a while) was perhaps 2 minutes long. When I lived in a suburb in a large city, that was the approximate distance to the corner store. You'd have to drive at least 5 minutes, sometimes in congested traffic, to get to the grocery store, and it was not walkable (around 4-5 km away). The big town you'd go to once or twice a month to do a more in-depth grocery shopping was about an hour's drive, but that's the same of two days commuting to my job (in a city, but where transit does not run). You could always catch a ride with someone if you needed it, because everyone knew each other. It's a really different way of life and while it may not be quite as efficient as living right in the middle of a city, it's not nearly as bad as living in a suburb or exurb, which is the only place you could possibly afford to live with the same amount of money. I live in the centre of a large city, and I've lived exclusively in city centres for over a decade, and I'm very happy with it, so you don't need to sell me on the benefits of urbanism, but it ain't for everyone and I'd rather folks lived in compact, well-planned rural villages rather than in suburbs with reliance on the attached city for literally every part of their daily lives.
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Mar 15, 2020 01:59
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Suburbs are basically the worst of both worlds and have visibly deleterious effects on their inhabitants.
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Mar 15, 2020 06:34
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Look, nobody is asking to sent out the urbanization squads and round up grandma and grandpa to live in a city high rise. All people want is to just let the natural urbanization process continue as it has been for over two hundred years. Provide basic service and amenities to villages but don't fetishise them as the ~true way of life~ or try to grow them back. No political overrepresentation for them, no insane pork barrel projects of moving big state agencies there, no building underutilized and expensive roads and highways, no tax incentives to commute by cars, etc.
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Mar 15, 2020 10:28
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Cities have been around for 5000 years buddy, I don't think they are just such a superior method of urban planning.it turns out they are really bad if you want to stop the spread of a pandemic, which ya know. They are more efficient in terms of some resource consumption, but so was lead in gasoline.
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Mar 15, 2020 11:22
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GABA ghoul posted:Look, nobody is asking to sent out the urbanization squads and round up grandma and grandpa to live in a city high rise. All people want is to just let the natural urbanization process continue as it has been for over two hundred years. Provide basic service and amenities to villages but don't fetishise them as the ~true way of life~ or try to grow them back. No political overrepresentation for them, no insane pork barrel projects of moving big state agencies there, no building underutilized and expensive roads and highways, no tax incentives to commute by cars, etc. Isn't the "natural urbanization process" of the last 200 years based almost entirely on the horrifying effects of industrialization?
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Mar 15, 2020 12:39
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Industrialization owns.
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Mar 15, 2020 12:59
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OwlFancier posted:Isn't the "natural urbanization process" of the last 200 years based almost entirely on the horrifying effects of industrialization? The "natural urbanization process" got started due to peasants being kicked off their land by force through the enclosures. Very natural enclosures though.
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Mar 15, 2020 13:28
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The modern way of living, all crammed in high-density cities where you have to commute four hours in your car every day to work and back, where food and goods are imported from abroad on bunker fuel-burning giant boats, is so much better for the environment than quaint rural villages. This is proved by how we damage the environment a lot less today than we did even just a century ago.
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Mar 15, 2020 14:23
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I live in the countryside, it's nice. Saw a mouse and a pheasant yesterday.
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Mar 15, 2020 14:38
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I saw the Stirling's nesting today when returning from fishing, it really sucks being in the country. Gonna grill some cuttlefish with fries and a nice salad for lunch, here I am being a drain on resources
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Mar 15, 2020 14:44
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 So much better for the environment.
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Mar 15, 2020 14:49
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i mean as a good communist i'm theoretically as much in favour of mercilessly corroding all politically inconvenient vectors of solidarity as the next man, but i find it entirely unsurprising that people who depend on them try to preserve them also i have weird sentimental attachments to things like my own language and regional customs etc and expect that others have the same. the alternative seems to be to turn us all into belgians or americans, neither of which is particularly appealing to me. imo fighting to preserve community and solidarity is a lost cause like many of the causes of the left, but i do think it's worth fighting for all the same
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Mar 15, 2020 14:53
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Cat Mattress posted:The modern way of living, all crammed in high-density cities where you have to commute four hours in your car every day to work and back, where food and goods are imported from abroad on bunker fuel-burning giant boats, is so much better for the environment than quaint rural villages. This, but unironically. As has been shown again and again by studies done on the subject. Also, who could forget the blissful quaint rural life of the 1800s? Famine, deadly epidemics, sky high child mortality, low life expectancy, women being treated like property, back breaking labor, illiteracy, serfdom, child labor, etc. Modern life is a nightmare compared to that.
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Mar 15, 2020 14:57
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Cat Mattress posted:The modern way of living, all crammed in high-density cities where you have to commute four hours in your car every day to work and back, where food and goods are imported from abroad on bunker fuel-burning giant boats, is so much better for the environment than quaint rural villages. This is proved by how we damage the environment a lot less today than we did even just a century ago. I'm sure that's entirely due to urbanisation and not a population/consumption boom. Isn't Japan one of the least polluted post-industrial countries because everyone lives in Tokyo?
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Mar 15, 2020 15:37
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AlexanderCA posted:Industrialization owns. It has benefits, although looking forward it's debatable whether it's going to be a net positive for life on earth. But even ignoring that, specifically the push of people into the cities (and periodically, out of them again) is a product of it displacing massive numbers of people due to the destruction of their ability to live locally by capitalism. It's absolutely not "natural" and if you want to describe it as natural then you're not making the word sound good.
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Mar 15, 2020 15:57
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They say you get to know your friends in times of crises, and we sure have one across the pond. Currently, president Trump is trying to lure CureVac, a German based medical company, to move their headquarters to the US. The deal? For the right price Trump would have a license to the corona virus vaccine, "but only for the United States", to quote an unknown newspaper source. Such a country exclusive license is vehemently opposed by the German government, which is currently participating in a bidding war with the orange man. They're of course not the only horse in the race for a vaccine, but to have a nation try to woo a company to move in and keep the resulting vaccine is morally dubious, to say the least. But I guess 
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Mar 15, 2020 16:04
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Jesus loving Christ on a pogostick. Can't they just, like, pre-emptively nationalize the company or claim rights on the patent or whatever? It seems insane to me that you actually need to have a bidding war over this.
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Mar 15, 2020 17:06
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You could do that but only if you're not effectively a US vassal state. So no.
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Mar 15, 2020 17:15
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Young people moving to cities for education or employment opportunities or to have a better life quality and be in a progressive environment is apparently "unnatural". Trying to improve your life is now "unnatural". 
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Mar 15, 2020 17:36
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GABA ghoul posted:Young people moving to cities for education or employment opportunities or to have a better life quality and be in a progressive environment is apparently "unnatural". Trying to improve your life is now "unnatural". Do you think cities just grow atop naturally occuring job and amenity springs or something..? Just a big pile of jobs and housing fell from space and now we've got to live here here, no human thought involved?
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Mar 15, 2020 17:44
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People were just violently forced to go live where the factories were for decades and decades. And then a hundred years later when companies freely choose where to locate they choose to locate at the place where all the infrastucture investments and prospective employees have been concentrated. And when people freely choose where to live they choose to live where all the jobs, housing and infrastructure has been located, thus perpetuating the vicious cycle. So natural and free. Please ignore the decades of systemic and deliberate violence required to create the foundations of this reality.
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Mar 15, 2020 18:00
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OwlFancier posted:Do you think cities just grow atop naturally occuring job and amenity springs or something..? Just a big pile of jobs and housing fell from space and now we've got to live here here, no human thought involved? Do you think you can run a large factory, an office building, a hospital, a university or any other large source of employment in a tiny village of 5000 people? It's not exactly a coincidence that good employment opportunities pop up only near large population centers. You can move the 100k people necessary to run all those things to the village, but then you just have another city.
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Mar 15, 2020 18:08
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I don't think large factories, hospitals, and universities occur naturally. I also don't think the severe absence of employment, care, and education outside of cities (or certain sections of certain cities) is naturally occuring either, it is a series of conscious historical planning decisions that lead to the concentration of resources in a few areas and the subsequent population/depopulation effects and the overwhelming majority of them are centered around increasing wealth inequality (and often racism)
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Mar 15, 2020 18:12
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If you think you can run even a midsized university of 10k students in some podunk village then I don't really know what else to tell you here. I guess you could try to make every village inhabitant simultaneously work 50 jobs as a bar tender, plumber, construction worker, cashier, psychiatrist, nurse and engineer. I guess with enough grit and if only we can overcome the evil forces of capital then everything is possible. The sky is the limit.
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Mar 15, 2020 18:25
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there have been periods of history in western industrialised societies where people have repopulated the countryside without being forced to, but it requires fairly active state intervention to accomplish. between the fifties and seventies iirc this happened in norway, it went away during the liberalisation of the eighties
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Mar 15, 2020 18:31
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I would certainly suggest that the majority of people who go to university right now don't need to, higher education primarily being just another industry with qualifications being the commodity. So you could close most of the universities, or reduce them in size. Replace most of their output with in-work training where needed. Healthcare is probably the best argument for centralization but cities aren't built around hospitals and medical schools, they're only a small part of them. Medium to large towns around large medical centers would be quite acceptable, imo. I live near a very large hospital but the town isn't very large and is in one of the least populated parts of the UK. To be sure there is a use for urbanization but the idea that everyone should live in cities, or even most people, and that it's somehow "natural" that people do, is pretty weird, I think. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 18:31
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GABA ghoul posted:If you think you can run even a midsized university of 10k students in some podunk village then I don't really know what else to tell you here. I guess you could try to make every village inhabitant simultaneously work 50 jobs as a bar tender, plumber, construction worker, cashier, psychiatrist, nurse and engineer. I guess with enough grit and if only we can overcome the evil forces of capital then everything is possible. The sky is the limit. Could you please quote anyone in this thread who is making the argument you are argueing against here?
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Mar 15, 2020 18:31
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keep in mind that this was mostly relocating from cities of the hundreds of thousands to towns from about five to fifty thousands though, the actual middle-of-nowhere places kept disappearing
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Mar 15, 2020 18:36
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I grew up in a town that was wont to have about 500-600 people depending on the exact year, with maybe another few hundred nearby. We had bartenders and plumbers and builders and doctors and engineers and lawyers and cooks and teachers and brewers and all that poo poo. It's literally insane to think that somehow village life would require a population of polymaths in order to function normally. This is not some fetishization of village life, mind you. I got out and I'm glad that I did; I much prefer living in a city. However, it's not the only way to live life.
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Mar 15, 2020 18:39
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For reference the small town near me of about 6000 has its own hospital and college too. And you can walk to both easily. Small villages don't have everything but you don't need megacity one to have facilities.
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Mar 15, 2020 18:47
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No. 1 Callie Fan posted:They say you get to know your friends in times of crises, and we sure have one across the pond. Currently, president Trump is trying to lure CureVac, a German based medical company, to move their headquarters to the US. The deal? For the right price Trump would have a license to the corona virus vaccine, "but only for the United States", to quote an unknown newspaper source. Such a country exclusive license is vehemently opposed by the German government, which is currently participating in a bidding war with the orange man. They're of course not the only horse in the race for a vaccine, but to have a nation try to woo a company to move in and keep the resulting vaccine is morally dubious, to say the least. Also, the company wasn't looking to move to human trials until some time in June or July, so in addition to hopefully not going through and making Trump look like even more of a despicable excuse for a human being than he already is, it also makes him look absolutely desperate as if he's clutching at straws. 
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Mar 15, 2020 19:08
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OwlFancier posted:For reference the small town near me of about 6000 has its own hospital and college too. And you can walk to both easily. Small villages don't have everything but you don't need megacity one to have facilities. I come from a country with a state run university system so I don't really know how colleges work where you are from. But my guess would be that if you are interested in anything but the most basic study subject or want to do graduate studies, you would have to move to a midsized or large university sooner or later. Also, how much of the students commute from a city? How much of the college workers? You do see the problem of such a small town just not being able to provide basic services to any large facility, right? The workforce pool is only around 3000 people. And government/public services alone probably takes a third of these people.
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Mar 15, 2020 19:19
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