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What zhat vash is trying to stop looks like Contingency from stellaris.
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Mar 15, 2020 11:12
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Bilirubin posted:
For all that people have complained about how Picard isn't really Picard in the new show, I think a lot of thought went into analysing his character and his flaws. When you look back we skipped over some issues while he was the wise hero turning up to say what's what each week. He was a great man, but he was also a dick on a high horse.
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Mar 15, 2020 11:25
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Unless I have contracted malaria and have gone deaf, I don't know why people are talking about a genocidal ancient being showing up to destroy everything. She already has shown up: it's Soji. They've said it multiple times
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Mar 15, 2020 11:25
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Alan_Shore posted:Unless I have contracted malaria and have gone deaf, I don't know why people are talking about a genocidal ancient being showing up to destroy everything. She already has shown up: it's Soji. They've said it multiple times It's going to be Lore isn't it? You don't bring back Spiner just for a 2 minute scene in the first episode.
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Mar 15, 2020 11:57
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Alan_Shore posted:Unless I have contracted malaria and have gone deaf, I don't know why people are talking about a genocidal ancient being showing up to destroy everything. She already has shown up: it's Soji. They've said it multiple times
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Mar 15, 2020 12:35
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Alan_Shore posted:Unless I have contracted malaria and have gone deaf, I don't know why people are talking about a genocidal ancient being showing up to destroy everything. She already has shown up: it's Soji. They've said it multiple times Because that was a theory mentioned on the show? Once you reach a certain level of synth complexity, the space Boogeyman wrecks your poo poo. Said Boogeyman created by an ancient race after their own synths (or a neighbor's) got uppity
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Mar 15, 2020 14:04
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This honestly seems like really lazy writing. Haven't there been entire synthetic life form societies that have been discovered in other series in the prime timeline. I'm almost certain Voyager encountered at least one.
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Mar 15, 2020 14:07
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Nitrousoxide posted:This honestly seems like really lazy writing. Haven't there been entire synthetic life form societies that have been discovered in other series in the prime timeline. Not advanced enough in whatever way they're mentioning. Also, Voyager was far away Also, probably, yes.
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Mar 15, 2020 14:10
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:For all that people have complained about how Picard isn't really Picard in the new show, I think a lot of thought went into analysing his character and his flaws. When you look back we skipped over some issues while he was the wise hero turning up to say what's what each week. He was a great man, but he was also a dick on a high horse. Yes, I think at this point I think we have a fairly clear thesis for the series: Idealism is good and necessary to stop society listing into barbarity. But acting like always doing the morally right thing is easy, and ignoring that in a complex world sometimes it’s incredibly difficult to be good is extremely arrogant. It’s a pretty obvious criticism of the way many TNG episodes went: the Federation’s flying luxury hotel rolls up to a planet in distress, the crew investigates, Picard gives a speech laying out the moral solution, the Enterprise buggers off at warp 9 assuming they did what Picard told them to do. This format has long been criticised, even within Trek. In a lot of ways, the entirety of DS9 is a response to that, as they stay in one place and have to continue to deal with longer-term problems. Also I think the episode The Quickening is a fairly direct attack on that thinking (although I think Voyager was the main target, which was often even worse in this regard).
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Mar 15, 2020 14:24
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Nitrousoxide posted:This honestly seems like really lazy writing. Haven't there been entire synthetic life form societies that have been discovered in other series in the prime timeline. Not really. There were various robots in the original series, but almost all of them were of the 'brain explodes when confronted with a basic paradox' level of sophisitication, and the ones encountered by Voyager were unable to reproduce themselves and so inflexible in their programing that they wiped out their creators rather than accept an order to end the war they'd been programed to fight. Outside of Data, true self-aware AIs are pretty drat rare in the Trek universe.
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Mar 15, 2020 16:35
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Lizard Combatant posted:General spy poo poo isn't just the preview of Section 31, Starfleet has always had an intelligence division and covert ops. Section 31 were all about Starfleet being able to break their own rules with war crimes and violating the rights of their own citizens behind the scenes to preserve the illusion of a more enlightened society. That's what made them such a loving awful concept. You can use them once or twice as a malevolent force to be defeated maybe, but keeping them as a permanent fixture in the series to get your "ends justify the means" rocks off is the antithesis of the show imo. Anyone who pitches an episode about them as a necessary evil should be shown the door immediately. Like the idea of United Earth is that it exists in this Utopian society with no want but everyone lives pretty virtuous lives regardless. And while the other societies aren't identical to Earth, we know there are some commonalities like being unified governments. But in order to preserve this you have Starfleet which serves two purposes: 1) Giving these utopian worlds a big gently caress-off military so the Borg or the Klingons don't just run wild over your poo poo 2) Monopolize exploration and outreach to other worlds with a very rigid set of rules on how this is done So, for the virtuous anarchy that is the Federation, you need to have Starfleet operating with its military hierarchies to ensure order and security are in place. Like you kind of say, Section 31 is a fun idea for the concept of the Federation to go too far. But once you institutionalize them, you start losing the plot of the world Star Trek is depicting to begin with.
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Mar 15, 2020 16:35
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So nobody agrees with Odo? BASHIR: I can't believe the Federation condones this kind of activity. ODO: Personally, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't. Every other great power has a unit like Section thirty one. The Romulans have the Tal Shiar, the Cardassians had the Obsidian Order. I mean, he's sort of got a point.
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Mar 15, 2020 17:53
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He's right, sometimes there are special circumstances.
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Mar 15, 2020 18:06
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:He's right, sometimes there are special circumstances. https://tinyurl.com/uamy8ov
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Mar 15, 2020 18:11
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I just had a dream I watched the finale of Picard. In it, Picard died and was resurrected by Q but with a giant grotesque pumpkin head. The series continued as normal but in every episode Picard had a giant pumpkin head.
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Mar 15, 2020 19:26
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:For all that people have complained about how Picard isn't really Picard in the new show, I think a lot of thought went into analysing his character and his flaws. When you look back we skipped over some issues while he was the wise hero turning up to say what's what each week. He was a great man, but he was also a dick on a high horse. Comrade Fakename posted:Yes, I think at this point I think we have a fairly clear thesis for the series: Idealism is good and necessary to stop society listing into barbarity. But acting like always doing the morally right thing is easy, and ignoring that in a complex world sometimes it’s incredibly difficult to be good is extremely arrogant. Drink-Mix Man posted:I just had a dream I watched the finale of Picard. In it, Picard died and was resurrected by Q but with a giant grotesque pumpkin head. The series continued as normal but in every episode Picard had a giant pumpkin head. 
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Mar 15, 2020 19:40
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Giggs posted:That people look back at TNG as if it's some realistic representation of even like, time is kinda wild to me. Barring season bookends and some other instances, each episode is just its own thing. That people extrapolate the idea that the Enterprise literally gets into a moral quandary week by week and that it's their lives, is also odd. That's not the point of the show. This is a very strange take. This, however, is wonderful.
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Mar 15, 2020 19:54
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Drink-Mix Man posted:I just had a dream I watched the finale of Picard. In it, Picard died and was resurrected by Q but with a giant grotesque pumpkin head. The series continued as normal but in every episode Picard had a giant pumpkin head.
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Mar 15, 2020 19:58
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Powered Descent posted:This is a very strange take. Actually, I think that's how most normal casual viewers watch TV.
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Mar 15, 2020 20:00
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The Bloop posted:Because that was a theory mentioned on the show? Once you reach a certain level of synth complexity, the space Boogeyman wrecks your poo poo. They've said something shows up, First Contact style, if you get sufficiently advanced artificial life. And that "something" is very bad. Synths are not bad. No one has said synths will do anything at all in particular. There is a lurking ancient horror that hates synths so hard they'll turn your space civilization into Hell if you make them. In this context Soji is the Destroyer because she's sufficiently advanced to alert the ancient things that hate synths. There has been no indication that synths themselves are a problem. Which is good if, you know, you want to have a positive outcome at the end. Personally, my hope is that Picard will talk down the ancient horrors, and convince the Federation that the issue with the old way there were doing AI was that it was hackable, and you should really just give them more autonomy/not make them slaves, and everything will be fine and good. ... I hope there are happy, socially integrated synths in Discovery, and they don't poo poo on the idealism from a Star Trek that aired earlier the same year by making everything Picard accomplished pointless. I'm not entirely opposed to the general plot of "we gotta rebuild the Federation," if it in practice emphasizes what's important about the Federation's values, but there's a lot of room to make everything feel pointless, depending on how they explain the fall of the Federation.
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Mar 15, 2020 20:03
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In which Gozer shows up and tells Picard to choose his destructor.
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Mar 15, 2020 20:11
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Drink-Mix Man posted:Actually, I think that's how most normal casual viewers watch TV. The strange part, for me, is that it boils down to "I can't suspend disbelief for an episodic show." You're right that for the huge majority of shows, viewers aren't going to get obsessive over the exact order of things. But the episodes are clearly presented as events in the lives of the fictional characters. Interesting or funny things seeming to happen to them weekly like clockwork, never really overlapping and only rarely referred to afterward, is just part of the convention of the format. It could be said of any show from I Love Lucy to Eerie, Indiana to Law & Order, so it's odd to call out TNG for it specifically. And if we want to be really thorough, that convention is much older than TV. The individual stories of Sherlock Holmes, for example, are also entirely self-contained, but no one is incredulous that he just solves cases one after another and that's his life.
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Mar 15, 2020 20:35
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Most of the time, episodes of Trek include a logical Stardate that provides a chronological continuity. A casual viewer might not give a poo poo, but they are there. I myself never bothered to look up how they work, but they are there and I know from some casual research that they usually make sense.
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Mar 15, 2020 20:46
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Longbaugh01 posted:Most of the time, episodes of Trek include a logical Stardate that provides a chronological continuity. They’re overly complex and you need a specially programmed calculator macro to work them out. Plus it changes completely between the TOS and TNG eras. Personally, I like the way the 09 movies did stardates: the year, followed by a decimal point, followed by the cumulative number of what day of the year it was. So today would be 2020.74. A lot simpler and more universal than 4 for the 24th century, then the numbers of seasons post-TNG’s premiere, then three increasing random numbers, a decimal, and the a number for days.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:09
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Powered Descent posted:This is a very strange take. The Island Doctor Moreau can just be a simple adventure/thriller but it's apparently about the *potential dangers* of unchecked scientific research. It begs questions about ethics, epistemology, meaning, etc. Why does the main character show mercy for a mutilated creature that presents more like a cat than a man? Perhaps it's trying to get you to question why people treat animals better than other people. It's 124 years old and all, so obviously some things don't age well, but that's what it was at the time. In the same way, you can watch TNG and choose to consider where the potties at? or whatever you want, but when a show (practically every episode) specifically presents a conflict, provides the consideration of the characters for their handling of it, and then their justification and possibly even the ramifications thereof, it's pretty clear to me that that is it's focus and intended purpose. Almost all episodes of the show are just people sitting around talking, going through these motions. It's not about spectacle nor melodrama, it's about the questions. Powered Descent posted:The strange part, for me, is that it boils down to "I can't suspend disbelief for an episodic show." You're right that for the huge majority of shows, viewers aren't going to get obsessive over the exact order of things. But the episodes are clearly presented as events in the lives of the fictional characters. Interesting or funny things seeming to happen to them weekly like clockwork, never really overlapping and only rarely referred to afterward, is just part of the convention of the format. It could be said of any show from I Love Lucy to Eerie, Indiana to Law & Order, so it's odd to call out TNG for it specifically. Longbaugh01 posted:Most of the time, episodes of Trek include a logical Stardate that provides a chronological continuity. A stardate is a five-digit number followed by a decimal point and one more digit. Example: "41254.7." The first two digits of the stardate are always "41." The 4 stands for 24th century, the 1 indicates first season. The additional three leading digits will progress unevenly during the course of the season from 000 to 999. The digit following the decimal point is generally regarded as a day counter. So you're totally right that it's moving forward in time, but season 2 episode 3 isn't seven days after episode 2. And it refers to the season of the show in the year which is dumb. It might just be that this was a way for the characters to refer to calendar dates that aren't based on arbitrary things from millennia prior and sound too boring or something.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:15
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nine-gear crow posted:Personally, I like the way the 09 movies did stardates: the year, followed by a decimal point, followed by the cumulative number of what day of the year it was. So today would be 2020.74. A lot simpler and more universal than 4 for the 24th century, then the numbers of seasons post-TNG’s premiere, then three increasing random numbers, a decimal, and the a number for days.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:18
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I don't think that the format of filmed entertainment is capable of delivering the kind of perfectly detailed consistent worldbuilding fans demand from it over long stretches of time. (Or if it is, I disagree that it is a good idea in at least 9/10 cases.)
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Mar 15, 2020 21:19
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AntherUslessPoster posted:What zhat vash is trying to stop looks like Contingency from stellaris. I always end up getting the Prethoryn Scourge. I'd almost welcome the Contingency at this point. I wonder if the New Horizons mod has updated to include any of the new stuff introduced by Picard. A supernova event that fractures the Romulans and reduces the neutral zone to lawless chaos would be a really cool wrench tossed into the mid-lategame, but maybe a pretty big scripting challenge.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:20
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Regardless of stardates, if you watched the TNG era shows weekly, then yeah you may not get a sense of a continuing voyage/mission. TOS being worse in this regard. If you binge watch all of them like I just have, then you really do get that sense, and especially with TNG and DS9 there is this sense of a built up recent history that has occurred. Enterprise has it rougher, but it’s there. And outside of weekly versus binge, I feel that TOS, the TOS movies, Enterprise, TNG, some parts of the TNG movies, and DS9 all have done a pretty good of giving you a sense of the overall “recent” history of this universe and making it feel like real times and places where things have occurred in the past we have not seen but have altered the landscape and relationships large and small. Yes there are sometimes inconsistencies and contradictions, but with however many writers have worked on this franchise, it’s a miracle it’s as consistent as it is. Anyway, I can’t now remember why this started with what Giggs said, but I felt obliged to defend it a bit, because even for a mostly episodic franchise I’ve felt the world building has always been pretty good comparatively, and maybe one of my favorite aspects.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:42
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Delsaber posted:I always end up getting the Prethoryn Scourge. I'd almost welcome the Contingency at this point. I always get war in heaven. I really hope we see some new ship designs next week. The squadron Picard is sent comes in right when they need to and it's all bes designs.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:45
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Giggs posted:I Love Lucy is a comedy that gets its humour from the characters being in our world, it's supposed to be basically real and contiguous because it helps with this aim, I think. L&O again, real world, context for the mystery, drama, whatever helps events have impact with the audience. I'm unfamiliar with Eerie, Indiana, but from a glance it seems like a horror/mystery show about the horror/mystery, not the main character's growth or whatever. If I was watching whatever variation of Sherlock and a friend was like "But... where does Sherlock get his meat pies? Does he wash his slacks or is he so smart and powerful he can punch the dirt and germs off? How many moles does he have?" I'd have similar feelings. I dunno, to me it has nothing to do with suspension of disbelief. That all sounds perfectly reasonable, I guess I misinterpreted what you were saying before. Thanks. 
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Mar 15, 2020 21:55
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My thoughts on Star Trek: Picard so far: Have been following the series closely, but I have to say I have to admit I've never seen a new episode. I will now watch the next three at least. Other thoughts on Star Trek so far: First thing I should say is that, contrary to the notion that it's a show for grown ups, it's actually really funny. It's really child-friendly (and clearly meant for kids). This isn't a grimdark show with gore and death, it's basically Trek with a touch more camp, more of a meme that kids could relate to. And actually, the show's plots are good enough that you don't even need a complex plot to enjoy it. Despite its flaws as a show, Star Trek: Picard is still a wonderful musical, for better or worse. The score reflects the tone of the show, always leaning towards the optimistic and positive. A few of the songs can seem like they are reaching out to the audience, but when listening to them, I would be hard pressed to notice or care. The show opens with one of the most impressive scores I've heard for a television show, but I soon wonder how much better it could have been. It hits the key themes with distinct and rhythmic drama, but the ending is a clunk in the beginning and in the middle. There are definitely great songs here. Although the cast is terrific, the show itself never is as good as the score. Procedurally generated
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Mar 15, 2020 21:59
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The way this is unfolding, now I *REALLY* wish they’d written Picard’s Tal Shiar buddies from ep 1 & 2 sticking around instead of the NuTrek cast we have. Honest Romulans vs Zhat Vash ideology would have been an amazing tangent IMO.
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Mar 15, 2020 23:04
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The stardate system is actually clever when you realize it's a way to sidestep production order changes, continuity errors, and complaints about relativistic time dilation.
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Mar 15, 2020 23:33
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm sorry I stopped watching the show and therefore forgot that Star Trek takes place in America in the 21st century. It is for and about folks living in the American 21st century despite being set in a future fantasy world.
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Mar 15, 2020 23:36
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All true. I couldn't have said it better. Star Wars meets Black Mirror. Uncanny!
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Mar 15, 2020 23:43
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Does Star Wars have a point or a message? I can't recall ever getting into a discussion about star wars that was about its themes, philosophies, or really anything besides just squabbling over worldbuilding details to pad out an MMO or wiki or something.
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Mar 15, 2020 23:49
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Arglebargle III posted:The stardate system is actually clever when you realize it's a way to sidestep production order changes, continuity errors, and complaints about relativistic time dilation. This. Stardates don't really make sense to us because they're not meant to, we don't live in a civilisation spanning thousands of cubic light years with constant travel and all the relativistic weirdness that comes with that. Cojawfee posted:Considering that whole Romulan fleet took off to the synth homeworld, I'm guessing the federation fleet will have to show up to fight them. That or the Borg cube does. Probably the cube since they already have a model of that. Have we seen any Starfleet ships? A Galaxy class (Enterprise in Picards dream) and I believe there was an Akira at the Mars shipyards
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Mar 15, 2020 23:50
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Khanstant posted:Does Star Wars have a point or a message? I can't recall ever getting into a discussion about star wars that was about its themes, philosophies, or really anything besides just squabbling over worldbuilding details to pad out an MMO or wiki or something. Star Wars has themes and philosophies, they're just all from classical epics which originated with oral storytelling and are therefore very simplistic. Good is greater than evil, love is better than hate - it's basically Arthurian legend (with a slight twist that the hero doesn't get the princess and become a wise beloved king in the end) and with a bit of Buddhist philosophy sprinkled on. Star Wars, like most blockbusters, is really about the characters, their chemistry, and the spectacle on screen so they keep the plot simple and familiar. Trek, being a TV show, could never really go for spectacle in any big way, so it was a bit more thematically ambitious. At least until CGI started to come along. The second CGI became cheap and good enough for prime time TV, the quality of Trek started dropping through the floor.
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Mar 16, 2020 00:27
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Longbaugh01 posted:Anyway, I can’t now remember why this started with what Giggs said, but I felt obliged to defend it a bit, because even for a mostly episodic franchise I’ve felt the world building has always been pretty good comparatively, and maybe one of my favorite aspects. Between this and what twistedmentat said, I have to add that the overall production design has always been a core aspect of that world building, and I do feel that it's lacking here. Except for a few elements, there's not a lot here that feels like a direct continuation of what's come before, and I feel that's a shame. I'm thinking mainly the Borg cube, the reuse of TNG's future combadges, the brief appearance of an LCARS interface when Picard searches for the Locutus holo, and arguably the new Romulan birds-of-prey. The hand-wavy holo-interfaces feel like a stab in the dark at reclaiming Trek's futurist cred, but even if we do all end up wearing AR goggles, are we really going to be using something like that?
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