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Mulva posted:Hey, that's unfair. Picard actually died for realzies, the syth is just a brain copy. It doesn't make the Picard everyone knows any less dead. This is a distinction without a difference in the real world. Infinitely more so in a world with transporters. Unless you'd like to enlighten us on how his unique Picardness, soul, or whatever, is moved from place to place by the transporter
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Mar 27, 2020 16:04
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AntherUslessPoster posted:I repeat my question from hundred pages ago for all those who say 'Picard and Data are not friends in the show'. Yeah, that's the goofiest take of any aspect of the show. There's a lot to pick on, that isn't one of them at all. Mulva posted:Hey, that's unfair. Picard actually died for realzies, the syth is just a brain copy. It doesn't make the Picard everyone knows any less dead. This one is a real mindfuck I doubt they'll dig into at all despite it being something that could be the premise of an entire show itself. So much of who we are as people, what we do, how we think, what we think, what we feel has nothing to do with "ourselves" or sense of identity and personhood. An uncomfortable amount of our actions and histories are essentially determined by microscopic organisms living in the thing that is their machine. Our brain and body aren't ours, it's our bodies, to even say some wacky poo poo like "I" is an extreme example of some of our basic systems gone wild. There is no such thing as a soul, but an ineffable and significant portion of your being, beliefs, character are owed directly to microorganisms in our guts and poo poo. IDK maybe they did a full blown transfer of all the dirty wet stuff of his old body into the margolem, but seems pretty sus to me. Literally and absolutely makes this "picard" a unique entity distinct from the one that died, I don't give a poo poo how good they think their copy transfer works - it's written by people still treating the human brain as some magic thing.
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Mar 27, 2020 16:12
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Not to mention that energy being trip he took in Lonely Among Us.
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Mar 27, 2020 16:15
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Alchenar posted:Nothing screams cheap low effort cgi that seeing 200 copy/pastes of the exact same ship model. Just give me 15-20 ships with a bit of variety because I can accept that as a reasonable fleet and I can also accept any depiction of an extended set-piece battle as 'these are big and powerful ships slugging it out'. You can only track so many things happening on screen at once anyway; this is why the opening scene of Revenge of the Sith is pretty decent - there's a massive battle going on but there's only ever two or three things on the screen so you can absorb all the detail. You get a couple of example shots of big spaceships blowing each other up and that's enough for you to imagine what the rest of the battle is like. and now lets compare that to a shot from a fleet composition in DS9 22 or so years ago, way more variety and this one doesnt even cover it all 
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Mar 27, 2020 16:18
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The big space battle at the end of the Orville was somewhat disappointing for only having two enemy ship designs and 3 hero ship designs among hundreds of ships (then like 2 more show up) Veteran Sci-Fi Series Star Trek in their bid for Serious Prestige TV Wow Factor: Hold My Canar
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Mar 27, 2020 16:21
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The Bloop posted:This is a distinction without a difference in the real world. Nah, he's still a corpse. quote:Infinitely more so in a world with transporters. Or as I like to call them, assisted suicide machines. loving things go crazy like once every 12 episodes at best, and you get a copy of someone or you mix matter together creating a new life-form or some drat fool thing. The only reason any sentient being would pretend they work is because they can't be bothered taking a shuttle everywhere. Lazy self-destructive bitches. They made a copy of his memories on a scanner and plugged them into a robot. The robot might be happy with that, but the corpse on the ground isn't. It is, as I've said, still a corpse. You can of course say that practically it makes no difference, and that's fine. Just like it's fine when I remind people Picard actually died in this episode. He's dead. Picard died. Nothing changes that. That's what the story of Picard season 1 was. Picard died to save the synths, and his legacy is a synth that thinks it's Picard. His legacy is himself, the ultimate act of auto-fellatio. It's entirely fitting.
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Mar 27, 2020 16:29
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did robo-picard ever see human-picard's corpse?
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Mar 27, 2020 16:31
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Mulva posted:Nah, he's still a corpse. You aren't your body. "he" is not a corpse because a corpse isn't anyone. Granted, this is a ship of theseus deal that we aren't about to solve in the Star Trek thread but HE is the journey and not the vessel. I think we can agree that the people of the UFP certainly don't think a transporter kills them.
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Mar 27, 2020 16:36
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I honestly thought the fleet was entirely comprised of Sovereign classes for a second (especially in that shot from behind), like Starfleet had finally realized that instead of loving around cranking out Mirandas and Oberths or whatever they should just CTRL-V their biggest hero ship and call it a day. Well, I mean, that basically is what happened ...
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Mar 27, 2020 16:39
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Mulva posted:Nah, he's still a corpse. He just spent the entire series trying to convince synths that just because their memories and identity are programmed it doesnt make them any less "real." He obviously believes it.
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Mar 27, 2020 16:48
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Listen for all the complaints you people have Riker looked boss on that bridge and I want a Star Trek: Riker coming out of retirement and exploring strange new worlds and civilizations.
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Mar 27, 2020 16:55
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Harlock posted:At face value: Robo-Picard is like low point for this franchise, right? He has to be brought back for the money machine to flow. If this was a one-off series, giving him and Data a mutual send-off would have been so much better. Khanstant posted:An uncomfortable amount of our actions and histories are essentially determined by microscopic organisms living in the thing that is their machine. Our brain and body aren't ours, it's our bodies, to even say some wacky poo poo like "I" is an extreme example of some of our basic systems gone wild. There is no such thing as a soul, but an ineffable and significant portion of your being, beliefs, character are owed directly to microorganisms in our guts and poo poo. IDK maybe they did a full blown transfer of all the dirty wet stuff of his old body into the margolem, but seems pretty sus to me. Literally and absolutely makes this "picard" a unique entity distinct from the one that died, I don't give a poo poo how good they think their copy transfer works - it's written by people still treating the human brain as some magic thing.  Mulva posted:Nah, he's still a corpse.
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Mar 27, 2020 16:58
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I enjoyed that. Overall Picard S1 was better than either season of Discovery and above average for Trek when taken as a whole. Far better than the other first seasons. Still, room for improvement. All you people crying about how it's terrible have presumably never watched Moffat & Gatiss' Dracula. That is terrible. Picard was above average TV scifi, nothing more or less.
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Mar 27, 2020 17:18
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show was terrible. it gets a 2/10, one of those points is for 7 of 9 being alright and one is for the momulan, she should have been a main cast member and what little optimism or good will i had going into the show was immediately cast down when it became apparent we would never see her again. Also maybe I misinterpreted some earlier posting, but did people actually think The Leftovers was a mystery box??? Lindelof was abundantly clear that WHY everyone disappeared did not matter and the only thing that did was how those who remained dealt with it. The second season theme song was literally called "Let The Mystery Be". I get people still having a hate boner for Lost, but between The Leftovers and Watchmen 2019 he's fully redeemed himself and made it apparent that his bad work was a case of him being surrounded with the garbage idiots at Bad Robot still churning out crap like the TROS and this drivel. EDIT for the above poster, if you see a show is made by Moffat in TYOLL 2020 and check it out with optimism rather than pessimism, then I just don't know what to tell you. Obviously that goes for Kurtzman too with this show but I don't know who in this thread saw Kurtzman and said "oh joy!" I guess someone had to by law of averages. It's unfathomable though, to me. Paper Lion fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Mar 27, 2020 |
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Mar 27, 2020 17:18
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sunnyboy posted:I wish I was more hopeful about the finale, but I'm not. Well, I was wrong... maybe. Although the synth leader did seem to channel a lot of "Lore" in her (killing, lying etc...). Nice quick ending for her anyway. But there were two things about the finale that really bothered me. The first is easy. Just forgetting about the incest brother was just... weird. (well, terrible writing/editing, but still weird). I even spun the PVR recording back to review because I was sure they did ... SOMETHING... with him. Nope. Just MAA (missing after action). The second is even more strange, and in a way had me laughing for much of the 'big battle' (that wasn't). Preface this with the fact that I *loved* Riker turning up to save the day with the bad-rear end fleet and all, and he really sold it. It was an awesome scene, which is why it instantly reminded me of almost the same scene, done a LOT better back in 2009... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYloWBP79ro it also uses the "choose to live" line of the ninja boy ... also in a better context, IMO. Basically, the above video ("if you value your lives, BE SOMEWHERE ELSE") from Babylon 5 also shows the value of excellent writers, directors and producers who care.
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Mar 27, 2020 17:18
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Tiggum posted:Please PM or email me (tiggum@gmail.com) if you want to discuss this further because otherwise it will annoy the poo poo out of everyone who's not participating in the discussion. I mean why wouldn't you just discuss it, it's the central moment of the entire season? It's literally the point. It's certainly not the wider synth bullshit, which existed just to give Picard one last hurrah and was instantly cleared up. Not the Romulams and their bag of crazy bullshit, that's unresolved. It's not the Borg, who were just sort of there? As an excuse to, I don't know, pull in Seven, and mostly to give Picard more to angst over? The point is that Picard went off on his big journey and died, but now he's pack in The meaning of the journey is the capstone for how you feel about the series. I shared my opinion, auto-fellatio. The entire plot of this season was sucking Picard off on how important he was, and how literally everything revolved and resolved around him. The plight of them Roms is on him, the Borgs resonant with him, the new syths are made from his friend Data and thus he has to save them, and in saving them he saves.....himself, because Star Trek Picard is quite literal, it's about Picard. The end, no moral, when the plot isn't focused on Picard we will wait quietly until we get to the revelation of how it impacts Picard. In the end, Picard sucks himself off by ensuring the continuation of....himself. The legacy of Picard is Picard. The world doesn't get to move on from the great man, he's too great, we will pretend that not even death can claim him to continue his achievements. What would the world be without Picard? We will never find out, because life is whatever is required to continue Picard. Picard.
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Mar 27, 2020 17:23
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:Oh also I forgot about this shot, lol. I hope someone explains distance to JJ at some point before he dies in a nursing home. DaveKap posted:Ugh, I know. As soon as I saw that shot I was like "welp they hosed that up pretty good." I think the ships would have to be the size of a small moon to be seen at that distance through a livable atmosphere. Senor Tron posted:That shot bugged me because it's clearly showing ships about 20,000 feet in the air. It's not THAT bad, at least from a standpoint of angular size. Here's the shot:  There are no measures included, but let's say that each ship is about half a degree across. That's enormous -- the size of the Sun or the full moon in the skies of Earth, easily big enough to see a fair bit of detail (like we can see the "man in the moon"). The fleet, as shown, would take up twenty degrees of sky. How big would each ship have to be? That's a function of how far away they are. They're still in space, so (assuming the planet's atmosphere is even vaguely like Earth's) we can put a lower limit on that: 100 kilometers. If they're actually that close (that is, just barely out of the atmosphere, and directly overhead), then the ships would have to be 872 meters across. That's pretty big, but well within in the range of, say, the Galaxy class (600m) and the D'Deridex class warbird (1000m). If we don't insist on each and every ship rivaling the full moon, the necessary size and distance change accordingly. Everything scales linearly (source: your 8th grade trigonometry textbook), so a ship that's half the size or twice the distance would subtend half the viewing angle. So let's make each one a tenth of a degree across -- that is, about the size of the man in the moon's "eye" or your typical view of a cruising airliner from the ground. Still fairly impressive, with the whole fleet still looking a bit like a high-altitude bomber formation. They could be 200km away and still only need a 350m wingspan. That's still very close, and pretty big compared to the closeup we got of Oh's ship, but it's not completely out of line. https://i.imgur.com/D5CPRmV.mp4 As for the ships somehow appearing as dark objects in the sky... yeah, that part's completely ridiculous. That can only happen if the blue glow of the sky is behind them. Even if the ships are painted jet black, the sky would wash them out just as effectively as it does the blackness of space. You might, in theory, see them as bright objects the way Venus can sometimes be seen in daylight, but that close to the sun? Good luck.
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Mar 27, 2020 17:34
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I agree with Mulva that identity and who is "real" is as central a theme as this show had and is thread appropriate. Not on anything else regarding the issue, though. Going with Trek science (the comments upthread about microbiome etc are worthy of discussion but I'm ignoring them here because Trek does) they copied Picard BEFORE he died. At that moment, there were 2 Picards who both are "real" as sure as two Rikers were both William T Riker at the moment of the transporter accident. After that one did die, yes. But one also lived. Picard continuity was maintained. He's himself. No more a mere copy than he was before with an artificial heart.
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Mar 27, 2020 17:36
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man those spaceships really do look dumb. they all have the same hull, exact same lighting (granted they're flying in formation), same heading, bearing, etc.. like the vfx team literally made one ship design and copy and pasted it 200 times in that shot without mixing it up.
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Mar 27, 2020 17:36
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Mulva posted:I mean why wouldn't you just discuss it?
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Mar 27, 2020 17:48
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Complaining that a perfect copy of a person isn't that person, in Star Trek, would be mindblowingly dumb. It's perhaps the most famous conceit of the entire franchise.
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Mar 27, 2020 17:51
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The Bloop posted:This is a distinction without a difference in the real world. Infinitely more so in a world with transporters. In the real world there is a distinction. You literally aren't "you" without your body. Who you are is more than just abstract notions collected in a fatty organ. Transporters work on the notion that an exact copy is transported, all of your cells, your bacteria, everything is the same. Putting some data dump of parts of your brain into another body is frankenstein poo poo, it's a new person and they would behave differently since the thing that makes them behave at all, their body, is now fundamentally different. edit: Just saw you're ignoring this in the context of the show but this comment specifically was about IRL.
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Mar 27, 2020 17:52
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I really liked the X-files reference in the episode. Surprising and reasonably subtle.
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Mar 27, 2020 17:54
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That Barclay episode shows that your consciousness or soul or whatever is aware and functioning during transport, so saying Synth Picard is really the same Picard with a new body is fine by me. Star Trek isn’t sci-fi, it’s fantasy. Go nuts with souls, have at it. Also the whole Vulcan Katra thing exists, so it’s not unprecedented by any means.
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Mar 27, 2020 17:57
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Powered Descent posted:It's not THAT bad, at least from a standpoint of angular size. Here's the shot: Imagine I dug out a gif of a rhino blowing poo poo out of its rear end here.
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Mar 27, 2020 18:05
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Khanstant posted:In the real world there is a distinction. You literally aren't "you" without your body. Who you are is more than just abstract notions collected in a fatty organ. Transporters work on the notion that an exact copy is transported, all of your cells, your bacteria, everything is the same. Putting some data dump of parts of your brain into another body is frankenstein poo poo, it's a new person and they would behave differently since the thing that makes them behave at all, their body, is now fundamentally different. It's a fascinating topic on the bleeding edge of science (and philosophy) right now, but oversimplifying runs the risk of telling this guy that he is a monster and not himself because he lost his gut bacteria and the neurons in his lower GI: 
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Mar 27, 2020 18:05
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I found a little dark humor in the scene where they are explaining to Picard that he doesn't have superpowers and won't live any longer. He really played the scene so ambiguously that I almost laughed out loud as I imagined him seething with rage on the inside knowing that they robbed him of super strength and immortality.
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Mar 27, 2020 18:13
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I hope he remembers this next time he's in a life and death combat situation. "I could have had super strength and agility but NOOooo they chose to give me the gift of frailty instead"
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Mar 27, 2020 18:24
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DrNutt posted:I found a little dark humor in the scene where they are explaining to Picard that he doesn't have superpowers and won't live any longer. He really played the scene so ambiguously that I almost laughed out loud as I imagined him seething with rage on the inside knowing that they robbed him of super strength and immortality. No super strength and no immortality, but next season he’s going to find out that Soong and Jurati gave him telekinesis and the power to make women’s clothes fall off, and by the time he realizes it... he’s seen everything.
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Mar 27, 2020 18:24
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nine-gear crow posted:No super strength and no immortality, but next season he’s going to find out that Soong and Jurati gave him telekinesis and the power to make women’s clothes fall off, and by the time he realizes it... he’s seen everything. 
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Mar 27, 2020 18:24
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Complaining that a perfect copy of a person isn't that person, in Star Trek, would be mindblowingly dumb. It's perhaps the most famous conceit of the entire franchise. Another conceit of theirs is that genetic engineering will give you SPACE MADNESS and turn you into a warlord out to subjugate all life. The Federation in Star Trek is filled with loving morons with no understanding of some of the basic tenets of science, philosophy, or logic. I don't have to agree with their beliefs to watch the show.
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Mar 27, 2020 18:25
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Mulva posted:Another conceit of theirs is that genetic engineering will give you SPACE MADNESS and turn you into a warlord out to subjugate all life. The Federation in Star Trek is filled with loving morons with no understanding of some of the basic tenets of science, philosophy, or logic. I don't have to agree with their beliefs to watch the show. lmao they aren't stupid beliefs to them because they are demonstrably true in their world Are you having some sort of frame of reference problem here or what If your point is that Trek is not hard sci fi then you get the No poo poo Award for the year, we don't even have to wait till the end
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Mar 27, 2020 18:29
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nine-gear crow posted:No super strength and no immortality, but next season he’s going to find out that Soong and Jurati gave him telekinesis and the power to make women’s clothes fall off, and by the time he realizes it... he’s seen everything. And Soong did make sure to point out that "everything works". You know what that means: the 94-year-old Admiral can once again salute. 
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Mar 27, 2020 18:30
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Powered Descent posted:And Soong did make sure to point out that "everything works". You know what that means: the 94-year-old Admiral can once again salute. Smdh he should've said Picard was fully functional
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Mar 27, 2020 18:33
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Martytoof posted:I hope he remembers this next time he's in a life and death combat situation. "I could have had super strength and agility but NOOooo they chose to give me the gift of frailty instead" I hope they "accidentally" gave him some super powers. Next season the replicator fucks up his tea and he punches through the nearest bulkhead in frustration.
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Mar 27, 2020 18:34
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Mar 27, 2020 18:37
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Regarding Picard's speech, how exactly do the synths and Federation "need each other"? The Federation did jack poo poo for them until the end and synths have the ability to call in the Reapers to kill organic life. The reason not to go to war against the synths isn't co-operation, it's that they have a nuke. Also it's nice to see that even in the future in a far away planet, IKEA still exists. SoupyTwist fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Mar 27, 2020 |
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Mar 27, 2020 18:41
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Big Mean Jerk posted:That Barclay episode shows that your consciousness or soul or whatever is aware and functioning during transport, so saying Synth Picard is really the same Picard with a new body is fine by me. Star Trek isn’t sci-fi, it’s fantasy. Go nuts with souls, have at it. The one thing that makes no sense, IMO, was how an android could do a mind-meld. We have like 50 years of canon that only Vulcans can do it because they have telepathic abilities. Just saying 'oh I studied it' doesn't make any sense. But then again these new androids have blurred the line between human and machine to an absurd degree and I don't feel like the show really reckoned with the consequences of that enough. I had hoped that this show would not suffer from the same 'shoot the first draft' problem that Discovery has had for two seasons now, but clearly I was wrong to hope on that. A serialized show should not have this many glaring plotholes and unexplained things (that are important to the story) in it.
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Mar 27, 2020 18:43
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I definitely noticed the Ikea lamps Also, picardroid woke up on a Purple pillow, just like me! (granted mine had a pillowcase on it) This is at least the fourth time I've owned something that I then saw as a prop on Star Trek.
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Mar 27, 2020 18:49
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The Bloop posted:lmao they aren't stupid beliefs to them because they are demonstrably true in their world gently caress man just to stick with the genetic engineer it's an entire plotline over multiple episodes in DS9. Spoilers: Being a genetically engineered super-human turned literally nobody in that plotline into a genocidal monster. But Julian's dad has to go to jail because man, you never know. Even with literally all evidence to the contrary over hundreds of years we need to watch out, or we might accidentally create a super-Hitler eliminating male pattern baldness or genetic brain defects. They are morons. It's not a question of it being "Hard sci-fi", it's a question of narrative speed-bumps. That's all. How far does a plot take you before you get that jostle that pulls you out of the trip? You can have the most nonsensical crap going, but if the story flows it's irrelevant. The problem I have with the synth Picard isn't questions of continuation, we can have those, but the actual problem I have is the narrative purpose it serves. And that's to invalidate all idea of sacrifice from Picard's journey and to deify his existence. He literally has a moment where his friend goes "Mortality is what makes human life have meaning, could you kill me?" and he is all abroad that train, but when he reaches the natural end point of his own life well.....robot him up. And it just reads....hollow and unfulfilling as a conclusion to Picard's journey for the season.
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Mar 27, 2020 18:50
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