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I've heard Ender's Game described as a novel to make you feel sympathetic for someone who unwittingly committed genocide, Thomas is the same idea except murder-rape.
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Mar 29, 2020 01:54
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I think I'm preaching to the choir here, but no amount of heartstring-tugging writing is gonna make me feel sympathetic towards a child-rapist vampire. The whole thing with Thomas and the Naagloshi, the Winter Mantle and that one time Dresden turned into a wolf really have me asking some questions. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 02:03
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Up Circle posted:I mean, feels like thomas barely shows up in the books after that so hooray! Well, there really haven't been any books since Skin Game came out in May 2014. Thomas had a decent sized presence in Cold Days, the book right before that one. As far as the stuff with the skinwalker, it could be that Butcher did it to bring the "gay hairdresser" story line to an end. And I"m kind of okay with that because the whole thing struck me as being at least mildly (if inadvertently) bigoted toward gay people. As for the Hunger, I got the impression that the Hunger was semi-autonomic. As a human, if you put enough willpower and focus into it, you could potentially starve yourself to death or die of thirst by refusing food and water. But you can't suffocate yourself like that. Hold your breath long enough, and you'll release it and inhale. Figure once the Hunger gets intense enough, it takes control and eats until it's full. One scene I remember is of Thomas and Harry jogging along a beach when they stop to rest, Harry opens a bottle of water and takes a brief swig before Thomas knocks it out of his hands. An outraged, thirsty Dresden gives Thomas a "What the hell?" and Thomas tells him, "That's what it feels like to live on the hairdressing." After the skinwalker, you had several things going on. The skinwalker shoved Thomas's face in the idea that he was a monster and the hairdressing feeding was a denial of his nature. Meanwhile staying apart from the White Court means that Thomas has no real influence there. Resuming normal feeding and rejoining the Court means Thomas can gain some influence which he can use to help protect other humans (especially those he loves) from the worst supernatural depredations. If it was me, I wouldn't have put rape (or at least roofy) vampires in my urban fantasy. Still within the confines of the "Dresdenverse" I can understand why Thomas is making the choices that he's making.
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Mar 29, 2020 02:40
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It's not about Thomas's choices, it's about Jim Butcher's choices
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Mar 29, 2020 03:10
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Everyone posted:Well, there really haven't been any books since Skin Game came out in May 2014. Thomas had a decent sized presence in Cold Days, the book right before that one. The issue there is that even if Thomas absolutely can't control it at all that doesn't change the fact he is willing to accept that consequence for his continued living. There are *at minimum* a dozen or so people who were raped and murdered because Thomas wanted to stay alive. That is extremely hard to build empathy for. To add to that Thomas is a rapist even when he isn't a murderer.. Butcher kind of treats this as a joke (but at very least seems to have faded away from that particular thing) but Thomas actively forces women to throw away their inhibitions and sleep with him. Even if they 'enjoy it' or whatever they are only doing it because he is using horrible demon magic to make them. The scene where Harry gets mad at Thomas for constantly being jumped by women is played as 'oh, poor Thomas" and not "Thomas, merely by existing, forces people to perform sexual acts they do not willingly consent to." To Butcher's credit I am pretty sure he has become aware of how hosed up this is because his solution to the Thomas problem appears to be "Thomas is in a consensual relationship with willing partner(s)" which is still pretty eyerolling but at least doesn't take "Thomas is raping people" as a given. He also changed Justine from 'mentally ill woman who depends on Thomas to keep sane" to "confident capable superspy" probably for similar reasons despite how little sense it makes. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 03:24
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Remember the time Thomas sent Justine over to Dresden's apartment wearing nothing but red ribbon and a bow to thank him for saving his life? The idea Thomas loves Justine was shoehorned in to justify keeping a loving rapist as a sympathetic character. Some Pinko Commie fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 03:36
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Everyone posted:As for the Hunger, I got the impression that the Hunger was semi-autonomic. As a human, if you put enough willpower and focus into it, you could potentially starve yourself to death or die of thirst by refusing food and water. But you can't suffocate yourself like that. Hold your breath long enough, and you'll release it and inhale. Figure once the Hunger gets intense enough, it takes control and eats until it's full. that's precisely the explanation bob gives at the start of book 6.
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Mar 29, 2020 05:27
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BabyFur Denny posted:It's not about Thomas's choices, it's about Jim Butcher's choices Butcher made this choice before sex and consent became such a hot-button topic, so I'm willing to cut him some (but only some) slack. That being said, Butcher my dude it's 2020 this poo poo doesn't fly today, fixing the issues with Thomas needs to be done yesterday.
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Mar 29, 2020 08:08
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rndmnmbr posted:Butcher made this choice before sex and consent became such a hot-button topic, so I'm willing to cut him some (but only some) slack. That being said, Butcher my dude it's 2020 this poo poo doesn't fly today, fixing the issues with Thomas needs to be done yesterday. I wanted to explore the Trailer in more detail (sigh) and it's...honestly weird. Thomas is imperil, Harry is Netflix and chill with Murphy...then he's semi-naked and dressing with another guy. Afterwards it looks like he may sleep with his half-sister to secure Thomas' release. This is...probably misunderstanding the preview, but it kinda sucks.
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Mar 29, 2020 10:51
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Since when does Harry have a half sister?
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Mar 29, 2020 17:56
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Cicero posted:Since when does Harry have a half sister? It could be referring to Lara somehow (haven't seen it). Lara is Thomas's half-sister (same Dad, different Moms) and Harry is Thomas's half-brother (different Dads, same Mom). I don't know what that makes Harry and Lara, but there's same weird family connection, presumably given all the above.
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Mar 29, 2020 18:41
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I thought the very beginning of Peace Talks was the revelation that Harry has a (half)sister. Wasn’t that released by Butcher as a teaser like a couple years ago?
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Mar 29, 2020 18:44
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The woman in the trailer is Lara, dressing dude is Marcone. Lara isn't anything to Dresden(they would be step siblings maybe if Mama Dresden was still alive) As to what's happening in the trailer...??? Turns out making good trailers is hard who knew?? Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 19:27
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Proteus Jones posted:I thought the very beginning of Peace Talks was the revelation that Harry has a (half)sister. Wasn’t that released by Butcher as a teaser like a couple years ago? The big reveal in the preview chapter of peace talks is that Thomas got Justine pregnant
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Mar 29, 2020 20:18
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Hub Cat posted:The woman in the trailer is Lara, dressing dude is Marcone. Lara isn't anything to Dresden(they would be step siblings maybe if Mama Dresden was still alive) As to what's happening in the trailer...??? My trailer takeaway 1. Thomas killed somebody (or gets framed for killing somebody), and gets captured by someone we've never met (who is Evanna?). This is mixed up with the peace talks presumably so Dresden has to find a way to save him without doing magic war crimes again. 2. Marcone is hosting the peace talks and doesn't want Dresden to screw them up the way Dresden is going to screw them up. 3. Scene with Dresden and Marcone getting dressed together (?) while Marcone threatens Dresden. 4. Lara wants to jailbreak Thomas. She and Dresden have what is sure to be an awkwardly written sex scene. 5. Carlos is suspicious of Dresden because why wouldn't he be, come on. 6. Dresden teleports somewhere? 7. Molly does some wand poo poo? 8. Dresden finds someone who has been beaten up, there's no indication who that person is. 9. Murphy is in a cast sitting next to a bunch of pill bottles, later she cuts the cast off with a dremel so she can dramatically limp into battle. 10. Maggie hangs out with Mister, it is good. 11. Dresden vs. Ebenezer is Teased ™ (presumably Dresden never gets around to telling Ebeneezer Thomas is also his grandson for some contrived reason) 12. Someone buries Dresden alive, and he does pop culture reference #346.
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Mar 29, 2020 20:46
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AppropriateUser posted:My trailer takeaway Evanna is a new character and apparently a Svartalf leader from reading the yt comments. I think beat-up guy is Thomas, they have the same beard situation, as to why they are also undressed??? Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 21:26
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Hub Cat posted:as to why they are also undressed??? Pre-diplomacy getting-to-know-you orgy? Oh, wait, this isn't Laurel K. Hamilton, so probably not.
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Mar 30, 2020 14:05
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Somebody's gotta feed the White Court representatives. I mean, we all know Butcher isn't going to let a book go by without having some kind of supernatural rape in it if those characters feature at all.
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Mar 30, 2020 14:12
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trailer stuff If Harry can have sex with Lara doesn't that mean he and Murphy do not have true love? Otherwise she wouldn't be able to feed off of him.
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Mar 30, 2020 14:45
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Thomas is fundamentally "the good vampire trying not to be a vampire" from basically every modern vampire story, with the difference being what he feeds on. (For that matter it's basically taking the subtext of pretty much vampire story and making it text.) Now whether rape is actively worse than maiming, if not murdering, someone to drink their blood, it's true that one is a crime that basically doesn't happen in that specific form in the real world, and the other is a crime that not only happens a lot, it's one that's actively trivialized in a lot of ways despite recent social movements to the contrary. (And I promise you we knew rape was bad in the late 90s or early 00s or whenever Thomas was introduced, too.) I think there's room for an author to perform the difficult task of suitably exploring the ways in which someone driven by something out of their control to do these specific terrible things can try to overcome that nature, and I am not really sure that Butcher is that author.
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Mar 30, 2020 14:58
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Literally the only path of redemption for a character like Thomas is realizing how terrible he is and committing suicide. Like the vampires in the Laundry files that we don't read about because they opt to arrange to be outside when the Sun comes out. Oroborus posted:trailer stuff "True" has no bearing on it, given that what he had with Susan applied and they barely had a relationship at all. It's literally a plot device.
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Mar 30, 2020 15:05
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The only path for the series to redeem Thomas is to not redeem Thomas, but show him for the monster he has literally always been and let him be the bad guy. Maybe even reveal he has always been working counter to Dresden. That would be a reveal worth having, but not going to hold my breath.
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Mar 30, 2020 15:22
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torgeaux posted:The only path for the series to redeem Thomas is to not redeem Thomas, but show him for the monster he has literally always been and let him be the bad guy. Maybe even reveal he has always been working counter to Dresden. That would be a reveal worth having, but not going to hold my breath. Never gonna happen, as we literally have a side story by Butcher from Thomas's POV where he genuinely believes everything he does is justified in the long run.
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Mar 30, 2020 16:20
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Never gonna happen, as we literally have a side story by Butcher from Thomas's POV where he genuinely believes everything he does is justified in the long run. I forgot about that. Nope, no way to redeem the character being the good guy.
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Mar 30, 2020 16:26
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Literally the only path of redemption for a character like Thomas is realizing how terrible he is and committing suicide. The mechanism for this in the books is 1) Have sex with someone you "truly love" and who also loves you 2) Don't have sex with anyone else. As long of those hold true you're "harmful" to White Court Lust Vampires. While Dresden loves Murphy, they haven't had sex. As for Thomas, I think the writer does not want us as readers to view him as a rapist. I can sort of see that viewpoint even if it splits the finest of hairs. What Thomas and other White Court vamps do is engender strong feelings of desire. They don't over-ride free will like Black Court vamps' domination or Wizards breaking the Fourth Law. Even if you really, really, really want to have sex with Lara Raith, you can still say "No." Now, granted that most people are not strong-willed and self-controlled enough to do that, but it's still technically their choice. Women wear make-up. Men get nice cars. They do that to appeal to their desired sexual partners. They're attempting to engender desire in their desired sexual partner. Does that make all of them attempted rapists? I know that what Thomas and Lara is orders of magnitude stronger than that, but it's still basically the same thing. I'm not saying that it's morally or ethically pure. It's not. There might be consent, but it's uninformed consent (since Thomas and Lara are consuming their sex partner's life force without their knowledge). Still, it's not quite rape in terms of main force or mental domination.
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Mar 30, 2020 17:05
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Everyone posted:Women wear make-up. Men get nice cars. They do that to appeal to their desired sexual partners. They're attempting to engender desire in their desired sexual partner. Does that make all of them attempted rapists? Yeah, you can go gently caress yourself. None of those things are anything close to supernatural mind magic like what the White Court vampires use, nor does your post actually match up to the literal descriptions Butcher uses for how it works in the books. Thomas literally overrides the thought-processing/decision-making centers of women he encounters just by being near them, Lara does the same thing except when she makes a deliberate effort to suppress it. Also, overriding free will is literally what the White Court's magic does. It's explicitly noted as such, which is why the "true love" plot device protects people, otherwise Dresden would've been dead at the end of the book with the confrontation in The Deeps. Some Pinko Commie fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Mar 30, 2020 |
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Mar 30, 2020 17:16
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Lilith Saintcrow's got me again - her first novel, Dark Watcher? It's a romance-focused book and I'm a giant sucker for how warm and indulgent it feels. Dante's a big ol' puppydog and Theo's a no-nonsense witch and I need them to kiss. That said as a first novel the pacing in it sucks, some of the scenes are really clunkily written, and it badly needs a rewrite or two. But hey - it's under 200 pages, and I can see the seeds of a lot of her themes and ideas...as well as spot the classic romance writer problem of Dante and Theo will be reskinned in Incorruptible, and pieces of their characters will be in Dante Valentine as well as everything else she writes. She's really into kind of stoic soldier types who are super protective but also good at listening to people around them, to the point that I want one of my own. Oh yeah plot. I'm halfway through and there is no plot. I mean there kind of is, some Catholic priest/knight types are gunning for Theo and Dante has to protect her, but it focuses more on Theo going around healing people while Dante falls helplessly in love. Man. This post belongs in another thread as it's barely urban fantasy, and as far from Dresden as you can get, but hey. I hope it's a nice change of pace from arguing about rape vampires.
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Mar 30, 2020 17:32
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What White Court vampires do is quite a bit more than putting on some nice perfume or something, yeah. Lord Raith (Thomas's dad) would routinely completely shatter peoples' minds when feeding on them, and Lara's only slightly better in the sense that she likes her slaves to have functional brains. Again, they're in many ways classic vampires (in a series that actually has classic vampires in a couple other flavors) without the subtext. They're parasites with a civilized veneer, made all the more horrible by that parasitism being a more literal psychological (and sometimes physical) violation rather than hiding it behind the veil of outlandish things like the drinking of blood. And I think this is a deliberate choice; the White Court is presented as, by far, the biggest vampiric threat in the books, even if the Red Court has had more immediate and direct power and even if the Black Court are a more direct physical threat. Where Thomas is a little different is that he's (to an extent) become an unwilling participant in this monstrous behavior, first by falling in love with (what his family regard as) his food, and later by actively choosing not to invasively feed on people at all. That he can't help having some effect on people just by his very existence deserves to be more than a punchline to some "lol he can't hold down a job because fellow employees keep throwing themselves at him" joke, of course. But the story Butcher's trying to tell is not (intended to be) the story of an unrepentant rapist who is otherwise a good person, it's the story of someone who's been dealt a really lovely hand and is trying to overcome it. If that's not good enough for you then that's fair. And if you don't think Butcher's telling that story well, that's also fair. To broaden things a bit, it's been a theme of the Dresden books from the start that the supernatural/magic can, just by virtue of being in its presence or practicing it, gently caress with your ideas of right and wrong in a lot of different ways. To the point that one of the major antagonists now is a being that very specifically causes supernatural beings to act contrary to their prescribed nature. (And there's some hints that Harry can and does do the same thing, in the opposite direction.) Likewise, the question of how far you can compromise your values in the service of something noble without being irrevokably lost is one that's very present throughout the series (and comes to a head in Changes). In this thematic light, Thomas fits in perfectly, though again I think it's completely fair if the specifics of Thomas's case make him not someone whose moral struggle you particularly want to read about.
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Mar 30, 2020 17:53
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Yeah, you can go gently caress yourself. None of those things are anything close to supernatural mind magic like what the White Court vampires use, nor does your post actually match up to the literal descriptions Butcher uses for how it works in the books. "True Love" "protects" people because it's a specific bane/weakness for the lust-based White Court, like silver is for werewolves or sunlight for Black Court vamps, not because it somehow represents free will. And in any case, it didn't so much protect Dresden as cause mild pain to Lara in the Deeps setting. I'll also note that we've seen characters resist White Court effect with straight up willpower and not true love, spells or mental shielding. No, it's clearly more than make-up, nice clothes (and I noted that in my post), but it didn't seem to be pure mind control either as it targets emotions. It makes one really, really want to do something, which can very easily cause someone to do that something, but it didn't seem to bypass decision-making. That all said, it's been a long while since I've read a Dresden book focusing on the White Court (6 and 9 as I recall) so I could easily be misremembering how that works. Edit: And also all of what Docbeard just posted. Everyone fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Mar 30, 2020 |
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Mar 30, 2020 17:53
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StrixNebulosa posted:Lilith Saintcrow's got me again - her first novel, Dark Watcher? It's a romance-focused book and I'm a giant sucker for how warm and indulgent it feels. Dante's a big ol' puppydog and Theo's a no-nonsense witch and I need them to kiss. That sounds pretty comfy and I probably should check out some of Saintcrow's books (although possibly not this one specifically) once I'm done my current queue. I could go for some comfy UF.
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Mar 30, 2020 18:02
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ToxicFrog posted:That sounds pretty comfy and I probably should check out some of Saintcrow's books (although possibly not this one specifically) once I'm done my current queue. I could go for some comfy UF. Dante Valentine and Jill Kismet are the opposite of comfy, be warned. She writes trauma really, really well. Incorruptible was more comfy, but is more romance-y. (It's a romance/roadtrip/action thing)
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Mar 30, 2020 18:06
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Everyone posted:"True Love" "protects" people because it's a specific bane/weakness for the lust-based White Court, like silver is for werewolves or sunlight for Black Court vamps, not because it somehow represents free will. And in any case, it didn't so much protect Dresden as cause mild pain to Lara in the Deeps setting. Except you missed the part where White Court vamps can feed simply by touching you when you're all horned up looking at them and their mind magic is running. This is how Dresden was almost eaten on Demonreach when Madeline Raith tanked a full revolver's load of ammo to get close enough to start feeding on him before killing him (and was in the process of eating him when Lara interrupted her). No actual "choice" takes place.
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Mar 30, 2020 18:06
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Please don't split hairs over what is and isn't rape, and don't tell other posters to go gently caress themselves. I haven't read the books so I'm not really following the arguments, but it's on-topic. However, please understand the seriousness of what you're talking about. Safety Biscuits fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Mar 30, 2020 |
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Mar 30, 2020 18:29
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Safety Biscuits posted:Please don't split hairs over what is and isn't rape, and don't tell other posters to go gently caress themselves. Anybody that tries to say "wearing makeup" and "drives a nice car" compares in any way, shape or form to what a rapist does when targeting a victim can go gently caress themselves. This is a hill I'm willing to die on alongside "There is no such thing as a sympathetic Nazi or Republican".
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Mar 30, 2020 19:23
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Safety Biscuits posted:Please don't split hairs over what is and isn't rape, and don't tell other posters to go gently caress themselves. It is straight-up unambiguously rape in the books. There is no ambiguity about it, even if it's just psychic. Dresden literally compares such violations to rape on more than one occasion.Trying to argue that it 'isn't rape' because people like nice clothes or whatever is wrong.
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Mar 30, 2020 19:28
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Anybody that tries to say "wearing makeup" and "drives a nice car" compares in any way, shape or form to what a rapist does when targeting a victim can go gently caress themselves. This is a hill I'm willing to die on alongside "There is no such thing as a sympathetic Nazi or Republican". That's not what he said, and uh, gently caress you buddy. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 30, 2020 19:30
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Wizchine posted:That's not what he said, and uh, gently caress you buddy. No, it is exactly what they said. We literally have tons of examples in the books of the idea that White Court vampires literally take choice away. People who 'say no' are presented as uncommon and immensely strong willed even before the vampires put the full mojo on them. Once they are actually trying you literally can not say no. That is even a threat they make. This is not the same as "trying to look nice so people think you're attractive." Even framing it that way is bizarre and offensive in addition to ignoring the literal actual text of the books.
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Mar 30, 2020 19:34
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More Dark Watcher by Lilith Saintcrow chat as I desperately try to dodge the rape vampires haunting the thread: I'm kind of in love with how this book does action sequences? Which is to say, it doesn't! I know Saintcrow is good at them 'cause Dante Valentine and Jill Kismet are full of them, but this book just ends a chapter if anyone rushes into trouble and swaps povs and it's so much more interested in how Theo's feeling about running from her home maybe being burned down, or in how the witches are setting up a major spell than it is in Dante stabbing some zombie knights. And I love that? It's so contrary to what I expect from the genre, without even a token bit of action. Then it hops back to Dante and it's more interested in how much his injuries hurt and his super-healing hurts and how he's determined to survive and get back to Theo because he's in love and I just This is exactly the kind of romantic nonsense I need in my life right now and I love it so much
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Mar 30, 2020 19:40
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Wizchine posted:That's not what he said, and uh, gently caress you buddy. That is literally what they said here: Everyone posted:Women wear make-up. Men get nice cars. They do that to appeal to their desired sexual partners. They're attempting to engender desire in their desired sexual partner. Does that make all of them attempted rapists? gently caress you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 30, 2020 19:44
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Yeah, like it's theoretically possible to resist a White Court vampire's attack, in much the same way Harry was able to resist Corpsetaker's more direct mental assaults, but I don't think anyone's gonna argue that Corpsetaker was just asking nicely whether it could have its victim's bodies for a while. If you want supernatural baddies that never technically force their victims to do anything, look instead at the Denarians, whose entire thing is making their hosts willingly complicit in their own damnation.
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Mar 30, 2020 19:54
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