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I know people really like the "Dabi is a gently caress-up" theory, but I started thinking about it in a different direction. What if it was all done deliberately? What if Dabi was secretly working for another villain group and joined the League to undermine their competition?
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Mar 30, 2020 07:03
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Mraagvpeine posted:I know people really like the "Dabi is a gently caress-up" theory, but I started thinking about it in a different direction. What if it was all done deliberately? What if Dabi was secretly working for another villain group and joined the League to undermine their competition? Because that doesn't make any sense and is again predicted on this thread's read of him as a gently caress-up.
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Mar 30, 2020 07:09
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Kild posted:didn't that happen in one of that batman games where he's inside batmans head Arkham Knight, yes.
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Mar 30, 2020 07:22
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God I hope Twice is dead and gone for real. The, "lol it was actually a clone" fake out was already tiresome.
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Mar 30, 2020 07:30
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It's always safer, in a comic book world, to throw your villains into prison rather than kill them. If you kill them you won't have any forewarning when they inevitably come back. At least the prison lets you know when they've broken out.
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Mar 30, 2020 07:42
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Goku learned you can't kill your enemies you gotta just friendzone them, even freiza.
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Mar 30, 2020 07:52
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:Arkham Knight, yes. Shigaraki musical number when?
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Mar 30, 2020 07:55
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I hope Twice's death is a fakeout, because this chapter perfectly illustrates the idea I was trying to get across last time: Nobody here really gives a poo poo about the snake hero the Twice clone stabs in order to release Compress and Toga. That faceless goon doesn't matter, there's no weight to him being stabbed and there's no emotional investment in his (presumable) demise. Meanwhile, I'd really like Twice to make it out, because he's a cool dude with a lot of stuff to work through and I hope he has a good end by the end of all of this. Always going to root for the underdog in these kinds of stories. I really don't get the whole "Twice has to be removed from the board because he's been written to be too strong"-take that even Horikoshi seems to subscribe to when a lot of other characters have abilities that, given the right circumstances, should never lose. Hell, primary antagonists have been done in by their own stupidity over and over again, when they should clearly never be able to lose given the right simple circumstances. AFO should basically never lose given the way his quirk is written. Overhaul had a death-touch he used like once and then degenerated into a big stupid punch-man. Twice's clones already had the in-built weakness of each subsequent one being easier and easier to dissipate, he was already written to be extremely vulnerable to area of effect attacks. His backstory even indicates that the longer clones are knocking about the more likely they are to disobey orders or start making choices divergent from whoever it was they were cloned from. There's a lot of stuff here preventing Double from being the ultimate I-Win button Hawks implies it is. Idk, doesn't feel like he needed to be written out of the story, least it not be able to advance, given that in the past big-name villains who should have curbstomped were dealt with relatively easily with a bit of writing around their strengths and making them act in less-than-optimal ways. Suddenly Twice is the ultimate rational actor capable of squeezing out every ounce of potential from his quirk, akin to the people theory-crafting best-case-scenarios on discussion forums? Feels like a weak justification, at the meta level.
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Mar 30, 2020 16:11
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I feel bad for the snake hero the Twice clone stabbed.
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Mar 30, 2020 16:20
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I think Twice with a clear purpose was the most dangerous villain this side of Shigaraki and AFO because his mind was all together. No chance for deviation when the mission is as simple as protecting the people closest to you I really do wonder if we're gonna get confirmation on Twice's status next chapter. Hawks is still in a bad spot too! Not out of the woods yet
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Mar 30, 2020 16:38
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Rhonne posted:I feel bad for the snake hero the Twice clone stabbed. Mmhmm, the outpouring of support and concern itt for him since the spoilers first dropped has sure been something. RIP nameless snakeman, Chapter 266 Page 9 - Chapter 266 Page 14. Carlosologist posted:I think Twice with a clear purpose was the most dangerous villain this side of Shigaraki and AFO because his mind was all together. Except it's really easy to work around this. Overhaul's win-condition was 1) Touch melee opponent; and failing that 2) Escape. Instead he stopped trying to death-poke, got into a My Bigger Fists Can Punch Better brawl and made no attempt at all to escape when everything was clearly scuffed. AFO, written as his quirk was, wouldn't have lost if he'd not first given up Super Regeneration for no good reason and then decided to exclusively engage in a punch-man brawl with the ultimate Punch-Man. Nobody in this manga acts with perfect, crystalline, optimized uses of their quirk, and the stronger the quirk the more this principle holds true. This is fine, it's a band-aid solution to having a setting where the power ranges from "I can throw clumps of hair that are sticky" to "I can take anyone's quirk and store as many as I want in me and use as many as I want at the same time"/"I touch u, u die", but then it's just weird to me how Jin's quirk is only being discussed in absolute perfect use circumstances along with the dismissal of very clearly outlined weaknesses when "users being flaky, using their quirks poorly, just not being that mentally stable" is an established way absurd powers get reigned in. And Jin's far from the most stable character we've seen, heck that's a cornerstone of his entire thing. KazigluBey fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Mar 30, 2020 |
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Mar 30, 2020 16:47
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Twice, like the rest of the league, is a lovely terrorist with a sob story with his in particular being his past as a one man crime wave until the lovely way he treated his clones bit his rear end. He is sympathetic in some ways but generally speaking I wouldn't feel bad if he died before he could act as a force multiplier for a highly damaged child's army of villains.
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Mar 30, 2020 16:52
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Twice, like the rest of the league, is a cool antagonist with a backstory that shows the ways in which the in-universe system fails it's citizens. I'm not going to treat this Shonen manga like some kind of treatise on real-life criminality, nor am I going to bring in Joseph Kony-isms when a hallmark of Shonens in general is everyone being highschoolers with powers we'd never countenance giving children if we had the choice not to. e.: It's all a question of stakes, too. The League have taken two casualties so far, like straight up deaths, if Jin's holds up. Meanwhile, I am fairly confident in feeling that Class 1-A will never have any deaths whatsoever. The worst any of them might experience is de-powering a-la Mirio, and I'm pretty sure with Eri around that's not going to be permanent, sooner or later. This means that the stakes for the villains, especially the ones that get the most development and screen-time, are massively higher than the heroes. I seriously doubt MHA will buck established Shonen beats and have focused-on protagonists die, but it's already well established that villains biting it for dramatic purposes is something that can and will happen. Why would I ever worry more about the relatively plot-armored protagonists in a genera that rarely touches them when it's the antagonists that seem to be doing all the dying? KazigluBey fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Mar 30, 2020 |
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Mar 30, 2020 17:04
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Regarding stakes: I'm not worried about anybody. I just want an interesting story. Twice dying was an interesting story. The kids having fun at a concert was an interesting story.
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Mar 30, 2020 17:40
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KazigluBey posted:Mmhmm, the outpouring of support and concern itt for him since the spoilers first dropped has sure been something. RIP nameless snakeman, Chapter 266 Page 9 - Chapter 266 Page 14. Overhauls win condition was escape with Eri and he refused to leave without her. Also he never tried to get into bigger fists can punch better. He tried to get into I have more and bigger fists that can touch more things mode.
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Mar 30, 2020 17:52
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I am now hoping everyone dies and the rest of the series is just Officer Doghead woofing at people
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Mar 30, 2020 17:57
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MonsterEnvy posted:Overhauls win condition was escape with Eri and he refused to leave without her. The entire fight was just choreographed for him to lose. There's a very bad moment where his hand is 6 inches from Deku's foot, but he attacks with rock spikes instead, because of course he can't win.
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Mar 30, 2020 17:58
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oh jay posted:Regarding stakes: I'm not worried about anybody. I just want an interesting story. Twice dying was an interesting story. The kids having fun at a concert was an interesting story. I'll admit that I can vibe to this. Magne's death had some very interesting narrative consequences so I suspect Twice dying will be even more of that. Thematically, it was quite the beat to end on too, Toga thanking Twice for saving her, i.e.: something a hero might expect to hear, never a villain. MonsterEnvy posted:Overhauls win condition was escape with Eri and he refused to leave without her. He could have gotten Eri back at a future date, but I get what you're saying. Heck, during the pre-fight "escape" he was barely breaking a slow walk, and neither he nor Mimic made any attempts to just, you know, completely backfill the tunnels as Overhaul made progress? I disagree with regards to the fight, there was absolutely no attempt to death-touch past the initial engagement with Mirio where that was explicitly one of the factors in the fight. When he starts turning into a Resident Evil boss vs Deku it was a straight up muscle-brawl, the quirk seems long forgotten in favor of a physical enhancement. Again tho, this is all fine, having antagonists with bonkers powers make bad calls is a perfectly reasonable way to grant them weaknesses. All I'm saying is that this could have been the thing with Twice as well, as opposed to taking it as a given that he'd optimally use Double in the most extreme fashion resulting in a victory every time.
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Mar 30, 2020 18:02
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MonsterEnvy posted:Overhauls win condition was escape with Eri and he refused to leave without her. He probably could have if he decided to leave his base at a speed faster than a leisurely stroll.
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Mar 30, 2020 18:19
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KazigluBey posted:Again tho, this is all fine, having antagonists with bonkers powers make bad calls is a perfectly reasonable way to grant them weaknesses. All I'm saying is that this could have been the thing with Twice as well, as opposed to taking it as a given that he'd optimally use Double in the most extreme fashion resulting in a victory every time. I agree with this up to a point. I'll do a Goofus and Gallant contrast in MHA: AfO vs Overhaul. Overhaul's final battle is the Goofus here. He's introduced and shown off as having a literal "detonate human" button that activates on finger contact and a nearly infinite capability to modify and rework the human body in any way he wishes on the fly. This is a nightmarishly powerful ability that should make him an insanely dangerous opponent - like Shigaraki's already incredibly lethal power on steroids(at the time, when it was touch based) when it comes to human on human combat. When it came time to actually fight him, basically all of his powers are completely forgotten about and not utilized at all(aside from the fusion he does at the last moment) and he instead attacks by shooting rock spikes at people. Overhaul engaging in a fight for the existence of his organization and his entire plan and just deciding not to use his powers effectively isn't "the villain is making bad/suboptimal choices that open him up to being outmaneuvered by the heroes and ultimately leads to his demise", this is the author saying "oh, poo poo, I can't figure out how to write a compelling fight sequence where one of the combatants has an instant win button, so I'm just going to act like he can't do that". Overhaul has no need to hold back here because he doesn't know or care about any of these stupid heroes, but he does for no plausible reason, which makes the fight feel lovely and bad. AfO's final battle is the Gallant here. AfO is a ruinously, brokenly overpowered villain who shows up and basically annihilates all comers instantly and the only one who can even hope to stand against him is All Might, who is exhausted and running on fumes. This should be a pathetically easy win for AfO if he uses his powers to their full extent, because even in his diminished state he's way more powerful than All Might at this juncture. But it's personal for him. He has to make a point to All Might, to grind salt in his wounds, to make him suffer and win a moral as well as a physical victory. He needles All Might about Shigaraki, taunts him, then uses his immense power to try to defeat All Might at his own game by punching him just to prove to All Might that all hope is lost. And then he gets his rear end beat down specifically because of his hubris, his desire to play with his food. In this scenario AfO holding back and accidentally giving All Might the win feels narratively satisfying. Basically you have to be careful with "ultra powerful villain loses by making bad decisions" because it's really easy to go too far and either make the fights lose all narrative impact or make your villain look like a buffoon(see all the people in the thread on the "Dabi is a stupid clown" train for an example of what that can look like in real time).
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Mar 30, 2020 18:37
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M_Gargantua posted:Maybe I missed something, but isn't it still suspected that best jeanist is just in hiding for 6 months and the dead body hawks brought was just a very advanced body double? Hawks killing him for real would be kinda brutal in retrospect, but would also fit his character so i'm conflicted. Still waiting for Best Jeanist to emerge from the bag like a butterfly from its chrysalis
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Mar 30, 2020 18:41
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I feel you guys are misremembering how the Overhaul fight went. Overhaul never went in a punch up. All of his transformations are just to give him more arms so he can touch more things, and he never actually succeeds in touching Deku. He's shown thoughout the fight to constantly be swiping his hands at Deku and Nighteye in hopes of scoring a hit.
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Mar 30, 2020 19:13
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I mean, "rock spikes" is still a solid tactical option for when Overhaul wants to hurt someone without getting in harm's way. Using ranged attacks because you deem it too dangerous to get close is a solid tactical decision.
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Mar 30, 2020 19:14
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I just wish Overhaul did more than rock spikes, if only because I've seen Fullmetal Alchemist and know that he should reasonably be able to fight more impressively than that.
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Mar 30, 2020 19:17
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I just wish Overhaul did more than rock spikes, if only because I've seen Fullmetal Alchemist and know that he should reasonably be able to fight more impressively than that. How so he can't turn substances into another like they can.
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Mar 30, 2020 19:18
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MonsterEnvy posted:How so he can't turn substances into another like they can. He turned a man into a tire.
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Mar 30, 2020 19:22
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oh jay posted:He turned a man into a tire. He merged a man into a tire.
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Mar 30, 2020 19:24
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MonsterEnvy posted:How so he can't turn substances into another like they can. Maybe not, but even so characters tended to manipulate the ground in more creative ways than just rock spikes. He could've tried to raise walls to box Deku in or at least put up blind spots so he could do the instant kill touch.
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Mar 30, 2020 19:28
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MonsterEnvy posted:He merged a man into a tire. I'll bet he felt pretty tired after that.
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Mar 30, 2020 19:57
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MonsterEnvy posted:I feel you guys are misremembering how the Overhaul fight went. Overhaul never went in a punch up. All of his transformations are just to give him more arms so he can touch more things, and he never actually succeeds in touching Deku. He's shown thoughout the fight to constantly be swiping his hands at Deku and Nighteye in hopes of scoring a hit. Overhaul fought a newly depowered Mirio(someone who is used to fighting by making himself literally intangible) for several minutes one on one and apparently somehow never managed to touch him a single time, despite being enough of a physical prodigy that he was able to physically overmatch Rappa, a character who is shown to be able to punch up with multiple heroes simultaneously. (The answer is that it's really, really hard to write a good fight sequence for a character who can instagib you by touching you)
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Mar 30, 2020 20:00
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Good post, I agree. MonsterEnvy posted:I feel you guys are misremembering how the Overhaul fight went. Overhaul never went in a punch up. All of his transformations are just to give him more arms so he can touch more things, and he never actually succeeds in touching Deku. He's shown thoughout the fight to constantly be swiping his hands at Deku and Nighteye in hopes of scoring a hit. Vs. Mirio the touch factor was absolutely something the framing focused on, and there was explicit mention of how Mirio was preventing himself from getting touched. The Deku fight was either full-on nothing but spikes or Resident Evil Boss where it's not clear at all he's going for a death-touch. In fact the first move he makes when he's in the last form is just more spikes. I think Kanos is right, the problem here is that instead of focusing on speed or the ability to close in faster or more efficiently Chisaki decides to just become big, with big hands, and the end result is a bit of punching, a lot of spikes and a very slow movement speed which seems like the diametric opposite of what he should have gone for vs. a fast combatant like Deku.
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Mar 30, 2020 20:01
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Since we're talking about villian with an instagib touch how do you all think the Shigaraki fight is going to go down?
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Mar 30, 2020 20:07
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 This was the annoying scene for me. Deku falling straight towards Overhaul, with no possibility of manuveouring. Overhaul is able to get 3 arms between the two of them. And then he decides to attack with rocks instead of going for the kill. For instakill powers, they have to be written stupidly for anything to work.
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Mar 30, 2020 20:19
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Electric Phantasm posted:Since we're talking about villian with an instagib touch how do you all think the Shigaraki fight is going to go down? I don't know, but I feel like it'll involve Shiggy giving someone a hand.
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Mar 30, 2020 20:44
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Shigaraki will taunt Deku by saying he'll have to risk life and limb to beat him and realize too late he activated Deku's sacrificial superpowers
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Mar 30, 2020 20:51
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oh jay posted:
That would be because you misread the scene. It's clearer in the anime. Deku is using the rock that Overhaul first breaks as a shield and launches himself behind and away from him he's not falling towards Overhaul. Overhaul meanwhile turns the rock Deku used as a shield into more spikes and while he is on the ground reforming some of the floor into more spikes. Overhaul never really moves on that page beyond turning his body a bit.
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Mar 30, 2020 21:19
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MonsterEnvy posted:That would be because you misread the scene. It's clearer in the anime. Deku is using the rock that Overhaul first breaks as a shield and launches himself behind and away from him he's not falling towards Overhaul. Overhaul meanwhile turns the rock Deku used as a shield into more spikes and while he is on the ground reforming some of the floor into more spikes. Overhaul never really moves on that page beyond turning his body a bit. The anime had Deku literally flying so I'm not inclined to believe it's accuracy. For me, panel 3 has him prepping a punch with his left hand, and him visibly closer in the final panel. Either way, the next page has Deku admitted that the spikes would have gotten him if not for his iron soles, which is kinda the same as saying the instakill would have gotten him if not for the spikes.
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Mar 30, 2020 21:29
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oh jay posted:The anime had Deku literally flying so I'm not inclined to believe it's accuracy. With the amount of force he can exert at 100%, he can "fly" using the air bursts created by his movements. That's how he launched himself out of the underground in the first place.
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Mar 30, 2020 22:22
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Shadowlyger posted:With the amount of force he can exert at 100%, he can "fly" using the air bursts created by his movements. That's how he launched himself out of the underground in the first place. I get that. And looking back at the manga, it looks like he managed one good "double jump" mid air to change direction. This is completely different from his doing a smooth orbit in the anime as Overhaul monologues.
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Mar 30, 2020 22:34
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I wish horikoshi was inspired by comic book choreography that’s possible to follow with human eyes
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Mar 30, 2020 22:36
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