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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:That said, if you think Picard is terrible you didn't watch TV back then and you aren't watching TV now, because in a world where the Voyager and the BBC/Netflix Dracula exist Picard is a long loving way from bottom of the pile. There's plenty of room for things to be terrible without being the worst of the worst. Which is not to say that Voyager or Dracula were the worst of the worst either, because I haven't seen either so I can't judge them.
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Mar 31, 2020 15:46
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Part of me wants to suggest that you watch Dracula just to experience it, but while I am a dick I'm not that much of a dick.
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Mar 31, 2020 15:51
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Voyager is much better than Dracula. Dracula is one of the worst tv shows I've ever suffered through.
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Mar 31, 2020 16:06
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Voyager had several good episodes and none of them were undercut but the show's dogshit ending, which is more than Dracula or Picard can say
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Mar 31, 2020 16:22
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The end of Voyager is "lol time travel". It entirely undercuts the entire premise of the show. They didn't have to travel home, a wizard did it.
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Mar 31, 2020 16:41
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:The end of Voyager is "lol time travel". It entirely undercuts the entire premise of the show. Yes, the ending of Voyager sucks. I'm saying the good episodes aren't retroactively made worse by it in the same way the wet fart of Picard's ending did.
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Mar 31, 2020 16:58
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I would argue that Voyager has a worse ending both in terms of ruining the episodes that came before it and in terms of damaging the franchise as a whole than any other trek, and that includes Enterprise which was bad and insulting but mostly just suffered from being rushed to cancellation and Riker being there for no reason.
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Mar 31, 2020 17:04
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multijoe posted:Yes, the ending of Voyager sucks. I'm saying the good episodes aren't retroactively made worse by it in the same way the wet fart of Picard's ending did. Picard isn't over the way Voyager is, doesn't seem like an apt comparison
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Mar 31, 2020 17:06
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Paper Lion posted:I would argue that Voyager has a worse ending both in terms of ruining the episodes that came before it and in terms of damaging the franchise as a whole than any other trek, and that includes Enterprise which was bad and insulting but mostly just suffered from being rushed to cancellation and Riker being there for no reason. I agree entirely. Absolutely every element of Voyager's seven years of stories is made pointless by the time travel ending. And it harms the franchise by introducing faster-than-warp as a standard bit of technology. Also you can canonically just buy time travel devices anywhere in Trek now. At least you could argue that the finale of Enterprise, as was intended, contained the holodeck poo poo to that episode.
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Mar 31, 2020 17:17
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I didn't mind faster-than-warp, but the time-travel loop seemed like a copout, because Janeway could have arbitrarily received help from an older self at any point in the journey, and so could any other character in the franchise with their own problems
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Mar 31, 2020 17:30
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Voyager actually did have the occasional good standalone episode, like most the the Doctor ones, or the Voyager war crimes exhibit and they're not really affected by the show ending in a really stupid manner. The problem with serialisation is it relies on the characters and their plot lines being built up to a satisfying conclusion at a later date, and if there isn't one or they just drop out of the plotline entirely like Narek & the XBs it just makes everything they'd done prior to that feel like a waste of everyone's time.
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Mar 31, 2020 17:33
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One reason that bad shows are suddenly proliferating in the 20teens is the huge increase in number of shows in production. The streaming wars are driving dozens of competing original drama productions where 10-15 years ago during the Golden Age of serialized drama you'd have three or four on the air at once. It's no long Breaking Bad and Mad Men coming a few years on the heels of The Wire and The Sopranos, it's a list far too long to name. According to Sturgeon's Law, the crap has multiplied proportionally to the good shows. 
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Mar 31, 2020 18:49
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:People have been saying this about shows for like a decade now, and I think it'd be good for everyone to recognize that this isn't some conspiracy. We just live in a world where TV writers and producers are much dumber than they used to be, and they generally expect that of their audience too. I have to admit I was holding out hope that Chabon was competent. His recent Q&A sessions suggest otherwise. He might be a good writer at times, but he is in over his head as showrunner. Lovely Joe Stalin posted:That said, if you think Picard is terrible you didn't watch TV back then and you aren't watching TV now, because in a world where the Voyager and the BBC/Netflix Dracula exist Picard is a long loving way from bottom of the pile. Just because worse things exist doesn't mean Picard can't also be terrible.
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Mar 31, 2020 19:06
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Posting "Voyager is worse than Picard" and making the troll face while I do it 
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Mar 31, 2020 19:07
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Ramadu posted:9/11 broke a lot of brains in Hollywood Now just imagine what our current situation will do to influence the next 20 years of tv. Assuming there still is tv...
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Mar 31, 2020 19:37
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Ok, so it's Star Trek, but there's this new virus spreading through the Federation that no one is immune to.
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Mar 31, 2020 19:42
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Cojawfee posted:Ok, so it's Star Trek, but there's this new virus spreading through the Federation that no one is immune to. Picard is self-isolating on the Chateau.
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Mar 31, 2020 19:43
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Astroman posted:Now just imagine what our current situation will do to influence the next 20 years of tv. TV, Streaming Services, and at-home delivery is all that's going to be left.
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Mar 31, 2020 19:44
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lol at the rose tinted glasses ITT. There was some of the stupidest poo poo ever on tv in the 90s, it wasn't all DS9, X-Files and Seinfeld.
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Mar 31, 2020 19:57
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marktheando posted:lol at the rose tinted glasses ITT. There was some of the stupidest poo poo ever on tv in the 90s, it wasn't all DS9, X-Files and Seinfeld. You talking poo poo about Sliders, Herman's Head, and Party of Five?
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Mar 31, 2020 20:05
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Paper Lion posted:I would argue that Voyager has a worse ending both in terms of ruining the episodes that came before it and in terms of damaging the franchise as a whole than any other trek, and that includes Enterprise which was bad and insulting but mostly just suffered from being rushed to cancellation and Riker being there for no reason.
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Mar 31, 2020 20:07
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FlamingLiberal posted:Enterprise's finale was bad because they killed off Trip for no reason, on top of the weird TNG framing device and spending the entire episode teasing Archer's 'big speech', but then cutting away as it is supposed to start. It's still a bad finale and as I said, it's very insulting. But as I said, it's mostly because they crammed Riker in there because they figured it was going to be the finale to Star Trek as a whole for a very long time and thought they were paying tribute to that whole era of TV so even though it didn't work and really undercut Enterprise as a whole by focusing on a TNG character, it's...at least understandable as a motive. Everyone involved has also admitted that despite those good intentions that it was a bad idea, whereas no one has ever backed down on how bad Voyager's was. They basically spent an hour trying to do an Animal House ending, but wasted so much time on the Riker plot that they had no time left to even give us the Animal House bit. I think they were also just too scared to write the speech because they figured they couldn't do it justice, which...lol that they didn't hire anyone good enough to write it, but at least they all felt the weight of that moment and realized they couldn't do it justice? IDK, it's funny and complicated. A big ramble but the basic point: Enterprise is forgivable in its badness and in part because the people that hosed up know it and have asked forgiveness, Voyager isn't and those involved haven't. "The sheer loving hubris", and all that.
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Mar 31, 2020 22:04
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:TV, Streaming Services, and at-home delivery is all that's going to be left. How are they going to film new TV shows if everyone is quarantined?
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Mar 31, 2020 22:04
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Don't worry they already filmed the next season of Discovery.
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Mar 31, 2020 22:13
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thrawn527 posted:How are they going to film new TV shows if everyone is quarantined? Have each actor paint one wall in their home bright green, and
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Mar 31, 2020 22:14
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Powered Descent posted:Have each actor paint one wall in their home bright green, and You're right, that first Netflix season of Arrested Development really was the best.
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Mar 31, 2020 22:15
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marktheando posted:lol at the rose tinted glasses ITT. There was some of the stupidest poo poo ever on tv in the 90s, it wasn't all DS9, X-Files and Seinfeld. No you just don’t get it, I can scientifically prove that tv writers are inherently dumber today and it’s not just because this particular piece of media didn’t speak to me on a personal level. The problem must be other people.
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Mar 31, 2020 22:27
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Bad TV has obviously always existed but I think Discovery and Picard are lovely in a way that’s unique to this era but I can’t really articulate why. I guess the two big cultural touchstones right now are Super Hero movies and Star Wars movies and I have a suspicion that’s why everything mainstream just kind of sucks now. fadam fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Mar 31, 2020 |
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Mar 31, 2020 23:32
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fadam posted:Bad TV has obviously always existed but I think Discovery and Picard are lovely in a way that’s unique to this era but I can’t really articulate why. MCU movies have way tighter writing, timing, and plotting than Picard. It's more like Justice League. Lots going on but all over the place and just generally disappointing
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Mar 31, 2020 23:46
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The Bloop posted:MCU movies have way tighter writing, timing, and plotting than Picard. Maybe, but they’re still kind of dumb and for kids and people who wear Deadpool flatbrims, and as long as they make buttloads of money companies who make genre shows are going to ape them.
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Mar 31, 2020 23:53
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I mean ok they're not challenging art house cinema, but saying the highest grossing movie and series of all time is just for one narrow kind of person is pretty silly There's nothing wrong with enjoying popular things AND erudite things
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Apr 1, 2020 00:24
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The Bloop posted:I mean ok they're not challenging art house cinema, but saying the highest grossing movie and series of all time is just for one narrow kind of person is pretty silly Not when that one kind of person makes up most of the population lol
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Apr 1, 2020 00:43
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fadam posted:Not when that one kind of person makes up most of the population lol Ah yes, the problem is everybody but you. Said everyone that was the problem, ever.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:46
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Uneasy lies the head that wears the fedora.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:52
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I honestly wondered if I'd missed an episode somewhere or just gone goddamn insane at the end of Picard because that was the most bizarre ending to a show I've seen in a long time. So much fell so flat in so many ways. So many weird choices. So much of a show I was mostly enjoying despite flaws thrown out the window and meaning nothing. Some of the sources of these things are obvious, they wanted to have their cake and eat it too regarding the ~big dramatic moment~ and they wanted the new crew to have the same connections the old TNG cast would have but didn't have time to put that work in. Thing is, of course, that as is being discussed the episode-of-the-week format was still important to creating those bonds between characters, so their reluctance to do that for the most part kind of sucked whilst also not being made up for with a punchy, quality overarching plot. But some of the decisions were absolutely baffling and my mind is sore trying to fathom it all.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:58
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They should have made some good episodes, of the show.
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Apr 1, 2020 03:20
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marktheando posted:lol at the rose tinted glasses ITT. There was some of the stupidest poo poo ever on tv in the 90s, it wasn't all DS9, X-Files and Seinfeld. Ban this filth for not mentioning Newsradio. Edit: Or the golden years of the Simpsons, which shaped the humor of a generation. But don't worry, Picard will be not remembered like all the terrible garbage 90's sitcoms featuring some washed up comedian.
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Apr 1, 2020 04:18
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thrawn527 posted:How are they going to film new TV shows if everyone is quarantined? Literally phone it in instead of figuratively.
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Apr 1, 2020 09:56
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The vast majority of Marvel movies follow the exact same formulaic structure, but the plots are always coherent (if you suspend disbelief when clearly asked to), the characters all have motivations that make sense, and theres always a clear message. They all know what they want to be.
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Apr 1, 2020 13:10
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Honestly The Frigging Mandalorian has moments where it feels more like a Star Trek than recent Star Trek. Interstellar is probably the most recent Not Star Trek Star Trek. Weird sci/fi, character drama.
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Apr 1, 2020 15:35
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