|
orange sky posted:https://twitter.com/alexandreafonso/status/1245351618775846912?s=20 So if I understand it correctly, a eurobond would act similar to a debt relief for Italy, at the expense of the EU countries with better ratings? Is there a mechanism that would prevent Italy from piling up more debt and ending up in the exact same situation ten years down the line? (Especially with a clown populist party so close to power) I think that's the main concern the north has with the whole issue.
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2020 16:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 22:03 |
|
|
Italy has had a positive cyclically adjusted primary balance 2008-2019 (revenue - spending excluding interest payments) for every single year since 1992 according to the IMF! https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/GGCBP_G01_PGDP_PT@FM/ADVEC/FM_EMG/FM_LIDC/ITA
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2020 18:26
|
|
|
It truly fascinastes me how shithole america somehow responds financially to crisis better, like what the gently caress Europe. I went through some lovely times after 2009 in Portugal and was hoping no one else would have to do it in future, but off comes the dutch and the German governments to act like sociopath ghouls.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 01:06
|
|
|
Celexi posted:It truly fascinastes me how shithole america somehow responds financially to crisis better, like what the gently caress Europe. I went through some lovely times after 2009 in Portugal and was hoping no one else would have to do it in future, but off comes the dutch and the German governments to act like sociopath ghouls. Gridlock dude its a helluva austerity stopper
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 01:09
|
|
|
Celexi posted:It truly fascinastes me how shithole america somehow responds financially to crisis better, like what the gently caress Europe. I went through some lovely times after 2009 in Portugal and was hoping no one else would have to do it in future, but off comes the dutch and the German governments to act like sociopath ghouls. No one — well no one that has a say at least — learnt anything from the Eurocrisis so this was always how it was going to go.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 05:45
|
|
|
The 2008 crisis was "solved" by austerity measures and the negative effects were spun as being a problem with foreigners coming to steal our jobs and the European government being out of touch. People bought it and rewarded the right wingers in elections. On a personal level it makes sense not to take on more debt to get out of a bad financial situation, people just aren't equipped to understand international financials. European government is too far removed for people to get that it's their own national governments propping up the austerity measures. In their eyes if their own government is their boss, Europe is the company CEO who doesn't care about peons like them. It's more like the governments being on the board of directors.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 05:56
|
|
|
nimby posted:The 2008 crisis was "solved" by austerity measures and the negative effects were spun as being a problem with foreigners coming to steal our jobs and the European government being out of touch. People bought it and rewarded the right wingers in elections. On a personal level it makes sense not to take on more debt to get out of a bad financial situation, people just aren't equipped to understand international financials. EU Exporting countries are hopeful many will die in the P.I.G.S.L so commercial properties, factories and airports will be on sale. Again.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 07:22
|
|
|
Here's hoping that Greece will stick with its revolution this time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 07:32
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:Here's hoping that Greece will stick with its revolution this time. A greek man told me "If turkey invades we will rise up" Which is a greeks way of saying "IF the immigrants come, we will shoot em up"
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 07:34
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:EU Exporting countries are hopeful many will die in the P.I.G.S.L so commercial properties, factories and airports will be on sale. Again. Who is the L here?
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 08:50
|
|
|
Orange Devil posted:Who is the L here? Liechtenstein
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 09:09
|
|
|
Orange Devil posted:Who is the L here? Luxembourg
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 09:24
|
|
|
golden bubble posted:Italy has had a positive cyclically adjusted primary balance 2008-2019 (revenue - spending excluding interest payments) for every single year since 1992 according to the IMF! It's forced into that austerity by its huge debt/interest payments though, right? Would it behave the same way if it actually had the option of spending again? The Euro stability pact is a huge joke and nobody takes it seriously so you can't really rely on it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 09:49
|
|
|
Eurozone Number getting very sad:
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 10:09
|
|
|
Don't worry lads, we can solve this with another decade of austerity.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 10:11
|
|
|
Maybe this will finally prompt even the worst austerity hardliners to accept that decisive action mus-hahahahahaha who am I kidding we're riding this into societal collapse
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 10:13
|
|
|
Angry Lobster posted:Don't worry lads, we can solve this with another decade of austerity. I know how we can solve our debt problem: first, we make sure nobody has any money...
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 10:24
|
|
|
Orange Devil posted:I know how we can solve our debt problem: first, we make sure nobody has any money... *Except for the Wealth Creators.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 10:39
|
|
|
Junior G-man posted:Eurozone Number getting very sad: wow sorry but sounds like y'all should try tightening your belts a bit
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 10:40
|
|
|
How do we fix this? Increase government spending by a massive amount Keep people's income at the same level to keep consumer spending going. save tons by not doing this: 
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 10:41
|
|
|
No, a lot of consumer spending is bad and we should do less of the bad things. We can keep government spending though, through a series of initiatives that can maybe build some things that are usefull to the public good,maybe backed by some kind of entity that can print currency.maybe curb consumer spending by turning some of the things that consumers use into public goods.maybe things that we consider vital necessities for the operation of a civilized society.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 11:22
|
|
|
Candles $3,600
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 11:26
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:How do we fix this? In these circumstances even this is half-measures. It's time for a command economy. Basically throw the market out completely and have the government both direct labour where it is needed and as you say, make sure regular people have a decent income guaranteed so as to ensure demand continues to exist. For the foreseeable future this also means decoupling provided labour from income.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 13:37
|
|
|
Orange Devil posted:In these circumstances even this is half-measures. It's time for a command economy. But Freedom 
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 13:41
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
I mean we could go further and just have the government put everything on rationing stamps and dole those out to people rather than trying to maintain a specific income. Upsides would be that this makes it very clear to everyone that Things Are Going To Be Very Different For A While and also that income has been decoupled from labour. Probably easier to just keep using money right now due to all that infrastructure being in place though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 13:52
|
|
|
There's been several "lockdown-parties" in private homes, where friends and strangers meet to have a good time during the (let's not call it a) lockdown. Police have fined and closed several bars that stayed open behind seemingly locked doors and there's still a high number of new cases of covid-19, but the curve's flattening. Flanders has its own Donald Trump, a nationalist right-winger who's vocal and gets into slapfights on Twitter, Theo Francken. He was the secretary of immigration under who's watch a member of his own party was selling humanitarian visas to Christians in Syria. Anyway, there's been calls for giving the police more leeway in shutting down those lockdown-parties and to report people going to their beach homes during the Easter holiday. The right has started to call the measures the first steps of police state communism. https://twitter.com/lectrr/status/1246010077225648129 For the non-Dutch speaking people: Left is a tweet by Theo where he says his party is introducing measures to allow police to arrest illegal immigrants in their own home. Right is a tweet by Theo where he says a home is sacred and police can only be allowed entry after getting a judge to sign off on it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 14:10
|
|
|
nimby posted:For the non-Dutch speaking people: A typical classic liberal, then. John Locke would be proud.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 14:53
|
|
|
Junior G-man posted:Eurozone Number getting very sad: I'm going to be a party pooper and say "duh", in fact I'm surprised the fall isn't bigger with how many countries forcibly closed down service industries altogether. That doesn't mean it's going to be as great of an indicator as normal, since the fall isn't due to falling consumer confidence but due to external factors (though I'm sure confidence fell too but nowhere near as much). Private Speech fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Apr 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2020 17:00
|
|
|
GABA ghoul posted:It's forced into that austerity by its huge debt/interest payments though, right? Would it behave the same way if it actually had the option of spending again? The Euro stability pact is a huge joke and nobody takes it seriously so you can't really rely on it. Pretty much. Italy dug a hole for itself during the mid 80s. Most millennials weren't even alive when this debt was made. Thanks to the joy of debts financed in foreign currencies, this means they haven't managed to dig themselves out of that hole, even though they've spent less than they've collected for every year since '92. Of course, everyone knew that before the Euro was established, but no one cared at the time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2020 00:39
|
|
|
golden bubble posted:Pretty much. Italy dug a hole for itself during the mid 80s. Most millennials weren't even alive when this debt was made. Thanks to the joy of debts financed in foreign currencies, this means they haven't managed to dig themselves out of that hole, even though they've spent less than they've collected for every year since '92. Of course, everyone knew that before the Euro was established, but no one cared at the time. What happened during the mid '80s exactly? And why?
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2020 11:42
|
|
|
Orange Devil posted:What happened during the mid '80s exactly? And why? If you got a statal job you could retire after twenty years of work. Fifteen if you were a woman with childs. Imagine going on retirement at 35 and continuing to work on the side for years without paying taxes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2020 13:47
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:How do we fix this? I'm all for believing this, but this is a crappy correlation. It's essentially a cluster of data with very weak correlation.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2020 16:10
|
|
|
AndreTheGiantBoned posted:I'm all for believing this, but this is a crappy correlation. It's essentially a cluster of data with very weak correlation. I think you'll find it's conclusive evidence to demand everyone bases policy on. *grins IMFishly*
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2020 17:11
|
|
|
AndreTheGiantBoned posted:I'm all for believing this, but this is a crappy correlation. It's essentially a cluster of data with very weak correlation. The graph is crappier than I first noticed. The fact is the harder you austerity the lower your GDP goes the runaway effect is your debts are harder to pay with a shrinking economy.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2020 19:31
|
|
|
My austerity measure would be to have the state confiscate all the wealth of anyone pushing for austerity.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2020 21:41
|
|
|
Nth reminder that austerity was based around a paper where they got the basic math wrong. Can formulate economic programs but can't work Excel sheets? Welcome to the very serious people club!
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2020 22:25
|
|
|
Antifa Poltergeist posted:Nth reminder that austerity was based around a paper where they got the basic math wrong. The basic math never mattered, economics is a "science" entirely based on petitio principii, circular reasoning, and every other logical fallacy can be harnessed to "prove" that the desired conclusion is an "objective fact". This allows to disguise extremely violent policies behind the supposedly impartial mask of technocracy. "Oh yes, it's unfortunate that we have to enslave entire populations and then rip their still-beating heart out of their ribcages, but economic science shows that this is the only way to get the Sun to rise every day. There are dreamers who want to abolish raids and human sacrifice, but don't listen to them, the economy would crumble if their unrealistic ideas were ever tried." If you fixed their Excel sheets, they'd just delete it and look for some other arguments that Austerity Is Good.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2020 23:05
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:The graph is crappier than I first noticed. The fact is the harder you austerity the lower your GDP goes the runaway effect is your debts are harder to pay with a shrinking economy. The solution is more debt thus solving the problem forever.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2020 00:27
|
|
|
Owling Howl posted:The solution is more debt thus solving the problem forever. Well the Germans thing that's problem solve because then they can buy more airports in the austerity countries
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2020 01:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 22:03 |
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Well the Germans thing that's problem solve because then they can buy more airports in the austerity countries The Germans are probably just stunned by the fact that anyone managed to actually build an airport, completely, and have it operate. Buying airports for them, I assume, would be like paying a wizard because you don't want to be on the bad side of their unknowable powers.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2020 03:37
|
|
