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SirViver posted:They just didn't want to make another Trespasser where you stare at your/Alyxs' boobs to "check your health" fully modelled
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Apr 3, 2020 19:14
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Boneworks has a full IK body and it constantly gets hung up on things and stops your progress. Honestly I have to say, the Alyx approach to ladders of "Climb the ladder manually then just sort of pop up on top of it" while not realistic is much preferred to the Boneworks approach of "Climb the ladder manually, get your hands stuck on every rung, get to the top and get your legs stuck on the ledge, pull your legs up and still for some reason get stuck, re-grip, get your arm jammed in the ladder, hang by one hand for a while trying to figure out what to do, get your body stuck, fall off the ladder and decide whatever is up there isnt worth this amount of work and move on".
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Apr 3, 2020 19:24
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There is a middle ground between the ragdoll craziness of Boneworks and the abstractness of HL Alyx. In fact games like Walking Dead are already in that middle ground.
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Apr 3, 2020 19:28
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Boneworks has a full IK body and it constantly gets hung up on things and stops your progress. The fact that Boneworks is a janky mess isn't an argument against anything except Boneworks. Get this, Alyx has a full IK body, it's just invisible.
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Apr 3, 2020 19:32
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The Northern Star Hotel. Wow. best level of any VR game ever, it felt like a full video game level - even the chapters before felt a bit abbreviated but this was epic. Things only get better from here I understand? This game is so good, I'm taking my time it with it and trying to savour.
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Apr 3, 2020 19:33
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cargohills posted:Which ones? I’ve not got a PC VR headset yet and on PSVR the only games I’ve played with visible bodies have been cockpit/fixed position based, like Star Trek Bridge Crew. Boneworks, Lone Echo/Echo Arena, B&S, Stormlands, Asgard's Wrath, Freediver, VR Chat, and Walking Dead, off the top of my head.
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Apr 3, 2020 19:43
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Is there any killer solution for getting pre-Index games to work with Index controllers? I'm talking non-Steam store, no community bindings to try out, free poo poo off of itch.io stuff. The optional controller binding settings in SteamVR only work about half the time in my experience, and are also confusing as gently caress to set up.
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Apr 3, 2020 19:49
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SteamVR control bindings are pretty confusing, yeah. When they released the updade for Alyx that lets you have a left handed gun, thank God someone already posted a control scheme that let you have your gun in your left hand but use the "right handed" movement scheme because there was no way I was figuring that out.
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Apr 3, 2020 19:58
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Boneworks has a full IK body and it constantly gets hung up on things and stops your progress. The secret to ladders in Alyx was to grab the bottom rung and WHIP yourself up, and it does that zip travel to the top real quick, at least it did to me.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:11
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I noticed if you get stuck at all in the ladders, it just zips you to the top, no questions asked.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:12
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:I noticed if you get stuck at all in the ladders, it just zips you to the top, no questions asked. from my experience, if you grab a ladder and let go it zips you. you never actually have to climb a ladder
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Apr 3, 2020 20:20
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The_Fuzzinator posted:from my experience, if you grab a ladder and let go it zips you. you never actually have to climb a ladder Yeah, I did this solely because holstering your gun and getting it back out is so annoying. If I could just drop the gun and grab it from a holster I would have actually climbed the ladders. Side note: I was always wary of teleporting down ladders because one time I just exploded at the bottom for no reason.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:25
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I really don’t get why so many people hate the gun management in Alyx. I found it to be really smooth and not at all annoying. I mean, a single click and the gun is gone. And to draw, you basically just gesture in one of three directions? Which for the pistol, incidentally, is the same direction to bring it up to aim. So like, the act of raising my hand to aim the gun is the same action that draws it. I’d be sitting there messing with objects and I’d hear a noise somewhere and during the act of spinning and aiming I’d pull the gun into my hand, all in one motion. On an unrelated note, be wary of crawling into vents, I did a couple times and found things I did not want to find! Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Apr 3, 2020 |
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Apr 3, 2020 20:28
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Tip posted:Yeah, I did this solely because holstering your gun and getting it back out is so annoying. If I could just drop the gun and grab it from a holster I would have actually climbed the ladders. Yeah it's not clear to me at all why they let you teleport down places that would kill you, it's really hard to quickly tell what will kill you and what won't so it just ends up randomly gibbing you unless you're really slow with it
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Apr 3, 2020 20:29
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I'm getting a replacement Index headset tomorrow. While playing Alyx, I noticed the right screen has a bunch of stuck red subpixels or something. Whenever I looked at something dark, it was like someone hit the center of the image with the spray paint tool in MS Paint. Valve said it has to do with how the LCDs are made or something. All I know is that it doesn't exist on the left screen and is really prominent on the right screen. So they are replacing my headset. I guess they are willing to break up the sets now. It seems like before they required people to send back the entire kit with RMAs, but it looks like they are just sending me a headset and asking for just the headset and cables to be returned.Jim Silly-Balls posted:SteamVR control bindings are pretty confusing, yeah. When they released the updade for Alyx that lets you have a left handed gun, thank God someone already posted a control scheme that let you have your gun in your left hand but use the "right handed" movement scheme because there was no way I was figuring that out. They patched the game so your gun can be left handed but movement is the same as right handed. Jim Silly-Balls posted:Boneworks has a full IK body and it constantly gets hung up on things and stops your progress. This is why I don't buy their games after I got burned on hover junkers. Everything they make is janky and unfinished. Except maybe that duck hunt game, but that's just you shooting things from one spot.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:36
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Bad Munki posted:I really don’t get why so many people hate the gun management in Alyx. I found it to be really smooth and not at all annoying. I mean, a single click and the gun is gone. And to draw, you basically just gesture in one of three directions? Which for the pistol, incidentally, is the same direction to bring it up to aim. So like, the act of raising my hand to aim the gun is the same action that draws it. It's not annoying. It's boring. This is the exact kind of system you expect from a port not a native VR game. In fact, this is the exact gun management system you get in Serious Sam 1-3 VR ports.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:38
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Bad Munki posted:I really don’t get why so many people hate the gun management in Alyx. I found it to be really smooth and not at all annoying. I mean, a single click and the gun is gone. And to draw, you basically just gesture in one of three directions? Which for the pistol, incidentally, is the same direction to bring it up to aim. So like, the act of raising my hand to aim the gun is the same action that draws it. Yeah, I don't get it either. For a game where you just have one gun, it makes sense to put it on your hip or something. But there's four different things to choose from in this game, and it's easy to just hit the trackpad (or button, I don't know what other controllers use) and just move my hand in a direction. Lemming posted:Yeah it's not clear to me at all why they let you teleport down places that would kill you, it's really hard to quickly tell what will kill you and what won't so it just ends up randomly gibbing you unless you're really slow with it Are you able to teleport to places that will kill you? I don't remember if I've tried it, but I know that if a drop will kill you, it shows a red skull. In those cases, I always just move the teleport back to where I'm standing.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:40
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In case y'all are still confused. It's literally the same thing as if they made you open doors by pressing a button instead of grabbing and pulling on the handle. I hope that I don't have to explain why that is a bad idea.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:43
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Jack Trades posted:It's not annoying. It's boring. This is the exact kind of system you expect from a port not a native VR game. Why does it matter if taking a gun out is boring? It's not particularly exciting in any other Half-Life game, and it's (apparently) perfectly functional and steers away from too much fumbling and dropping things, which might be frustrating for some players.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:44
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Floating hands don't bother me in the slightest. I don't need to see my body to know it's there, and seeing a body that doesn't match what I'm doing IRL is annoying. For example, I hate the B&S body. While looking down and seeing my feet is neat, there's a disconnect where if I bend over to grab or stab something (typically through hinging my hips with only slight knee bend), the game model instead does a squat, with its feet positioned directly below my headset and its knees shooting forward, so it's in my way, or at minimum is taking up an excessive amount of my vision.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:50
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cargohills posted:Why does it matter if taking a gun out is boring? It's not particularly exciting in any other Half-Life game, and it's (apparently) perfectly functional and steers away from too much fumbling and dropping things, which might be frustrating for some players. Everything can be fun. The moment to moment gameplay is intriguing and interesting in VR for things that are mundane and boring in flat games. Reloading isn't interesting in most games, it's just a decision to reload or not, and some games have added small timing minigames to try to spice it up. As another example, reloading would be a lot easier if you just pressed a button and the gun reloaded itself. It'd definitely be less tense and frustrating. That would be perfectly functional too, and it would suck and be boring as hell Part of the problem too is it forces a disconnect between the game's promotion of the idea that you're in a real place where everything is a physical object that can be interacted with, and the idea that you need to Choose Gun 3 from the list and have it magic into existence. Also it's just your hand now, you can't let go or put it down for a second. It takes you out of the world as a place to interact with and momentarily puts you back in the video game I'm playing world
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Apr 3, 2020 20:50
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Bad Munki posted:I really don’t get why so many people hate the gun management in Alyx. I found it to be really smooth and not at all annoying. I mean, a single click and the gun is gone. And to draw, you basically just gesture in one of three directions? Which for the pistol, incidentally, is the same direction to bring it up to aim. So like, the act of raising my hand to aim the gun is the same action that draws it. Its one part just not feeling like a native VR game, with it being stuck to your hand and not being able to put it away anywhere physically, and another part running counter to how basically every other VR game with guns has worked for years. Like it doesn't ruin the game, but its undoubtedly the worst part of it that takes me out of the experience.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:50
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Jack Trades posted:In case y'all are still confused. It's literally the same thing as if they made you open doors by pressing a button instead of grabbing and pulling on the handle. Ok, so where would the four things you are using be on your body, and how do you make sure you're getting the thing you want without looking? You could do right hip and left hip, where else? Maybe you could do over the shoulder with the dominant hand to grab something, but that still leaves something out. Also, how do I prevent myself from accidentally grabbing the wrong gun like what happens with the mask? Or I can just hit the trackpad, move my hand up for the pistol and start shooting.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:54
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cargohills posted:Why does it matter if taking a gun out is boring? It's not particularly exciting in any other Half-Life game, and it's (apparently) perfectly functional and steers away from too much fumbling and dropping things, which might be frustrating for some players. Jack Trades posted:In case y'all are still confused. It's literally the same thing as if they made you open doors by pressing a button instead of grabbing and pulling on the handle. Apparently I do. What's the point of making a VR game if you're not going to make use of VR features? You could've made holster/drop my pistol and pull my shotgun from behind my shoulder when I wanted to switch and that would've been a cool action movie walking-arsenal style moment but no, you press a button and do a little wave in the air and you automagically have a different gun in your hand. The "but what if they drop it?" isn't even a good excuse because there are a bunch of way to get around that. First of all you already have grabbity gloves that make picking stuff up easy AND fun, and if that's not enough you could literally make the gun teleport into your hand when you press the grab button or something, and you'd still get to keep that cool part where you feel like you actually are carrying that weapon arsenal on you.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:54
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Having to select my hand from a menu so I can grab a grenade from my left wrist is the height of immersive entertainment!
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Apr 3, 2020 20:55
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Cojawfee posted:Ok, so where would the four things you are using be on your body, and how do you make sure you're getting the thing you want without looking? You could do right hip and left hip, where else? Maybe you could do over the shoulder with the dominant hand to grab something, but that still leaves something out. Also, how do I prevent myself from accidentally grabbing the wrong gun like what happens with the mask? Or I can just hit the trackpad, move my hand up for the pistol and start shooting. Stormland (IMO best VR action gameplay to date) lets you carry 4 guns and I literally never had an issue with picking out the wrong gun in that game ever. Both hips and behind both shoulders. Bonework's under-the-armpit holsters worked really well too. Plenty of solutions to choose from.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:57
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Lemming posted:Everything can be fun. The moment to moment gameplay is intriguing and interesting in VR for things that are mundane and boring in flat games. Reloading isn't interesting in most games, it's just a decision to reload or not, and some games have added small timing minigames to try to spice it up. Think the difference between e.g. doors and reloading vs. grabbing guns is mostly where the thing you're interacting with is - doors and reloading is done in front of your eyes, in an area that should always be free for this sort of game, and you get that visual feedback. Without the guns actually being connected to your real body there can be a bit of a disconnect between where you would expect them to be (your actual hip) vs. where they are (your virtual hip, which may be nowhere near your actualy hip), unless you stare at yourself while switching. It also creates a bit of a problem with chair gaming - in the desktop chair I'm using right now I can't reach my hips comfortably because of the armrest, so unless Alyx stored her guns on her chest she'd be unable to do anything. Behind the should storage can work but that might limit inventory size or your ability to unequip the gun entirely. They could always add it as an option I guess but I think not bothering with fixing the potential jankiness for an optional feature is a fair enough decision.
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Apr 3, 2020 21:00
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Cojawfee posted:Ok, so where would the four things you are using be on your body, and how do you make sure you're getting the thing you want without looking? You could do right hip and left hip, where else? Maybe you could do over the shoulder with the dominant hand to grab something, but that still leaves something out. Also, how do I prevent myself from accidentally grabbing the wrong gun like what happens with the mask? Or I can just hit the trackpad, move my hand up for the pistol and start shooting. If there are too many weapons to be easily usable (and i'd say theres at least 3 natural spots, each hip, and over the shoulder), a great way would be how 'From Other Suns' does it. You can carry a bunch of weapons that you can access from an inventory (in that game's case a hologram of all the weapons in your inventory appear in front of you at the push of a button and you still have yo reach out and grab the one you want), and then chose which ones you want to put on each hip holster. It lets you feel like you're strapping yourself with the weapons you want, and you have quick access to them, but still have menu access to the other ones if you want to swap them out.
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Apr 3, 2020 21:01
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cargohills posted:Think the difference between e.g. doors and reloading vs. grabbing guns is mostly where the thing you're interacting with is - doors and reloading is done in front of your eyes, in an area that should always be free for this sort of game, and you get that visual feedback. Without the guns actually being connected to your real body there can be a bit of a disconnect between where you would expect them to be (your actual hip) vs. where they are (your virtual hip, which may be nowhere near your actualy hip), unless you stare at yourself while switching. See, I can't agree with the idea that having holstered weapons is somehow a janky risky thing to do that can cause problems, when literally every VR game with weapons has done it this way for years and years at this point. Somehow every single other action VR game manages to do this just fine.
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Apr 3, 2020 21:04
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Having the guns accessible from a gesture menu on your magical telekinesis gloves seems perfectly fine in the half life world.
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Apr 3, 2020 21:06
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cargohills posted:It also creates a bit of a problem with chair gaming - in the desktop chair I'm using right now I can't reach my hips comfortably because of the armrest, so unless Alyx stored her guns on her chest she'd be unable to do anything. Behind the should storage can work but that might limit inventory size or your ability to unequip the gun entirely. Playing in a chair with arm rests sounds like a bad idea. I played the entirety of Alyx seated (no arm rests) and had to remember to not trigger the weapon switching too close to my body or some of the items were inaccessible. Also, games can make the hitboxes for grabbing very generous, and also give you magnetic holsters so that when you drop your weapons they snap back to the holsters. I had zero problems with this in Stormland and found switching between weapons and using items much much easier and smoother in the middle of combat.
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Apr 3, 2020 21:06
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Valve playtests the absolute poo poo out of their games so I'm going to assume that playtesters struggled with the holsters.
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Apr 3, 2020 21:07
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Pylons posted:Valve playtests the absolute poo poo out of their games so I'm going to assume that playtesters struggled with the holsters. Yep. And inevitably this approach produces very polished games with very low 'friction', but sometimes they smooth the corners too much and the net result is too safe.
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Apr 3, 2020 21:13
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cargohills posted:Think the difference between e.g. doors and reloading vs. grabbing guns is mostly where the thing you're interacting with is - doors and reloading is done in front of your eyes, in an area that should always be free for this sort of game, and you get that visual feedback. Without the guns actually being connected to your real body there can be a bit of a disconnect between where you would expect them to be (your actual hip) vs. where they are (your virtual hip, which may be nowhere near your actualy hip), unless you stare at yourself while switching. I disagree with this sosososoos hard. Part of what feels super awesome about VR is when you can do stuff with your hands in areas that you CAN'T directly see. That's a part of mastery, comfort, and familiarity, and it's an aspect I think is fantastic to play up when you really want to sell the idea of the world being real. When you interact with stuff in your day to day life, you start by learning and doing stuff in an area you can see - like typing, you have to start by looking at all the keys while you're doing it and you have to think really hard about what you're doing. Once you're good at it, you don't look at your hands at all, and you can even tell when you've made a mistake before you even see the keystrokes appear on the page, you can just tell when you're messing up in the action of mistyping something (yeah I know your hands are in your field of vision when you're typing, but you're not looking AT them so it doesn't really matter). Even when you're doing something in your visual field, the fun parts are when you don't need to THINK about what you're doing, you just focus on the GOAL you're trying to achieve, and you automatically do them. That's why the gloves are so fun, after you get comfortable with them you aren't thinking ok, reach out, highlight the object I want, ok, pull, wait for it to come, ok, grab, you just think gimme and you grab it. It's way cooler to have to start worrying about holstering your gun and trying to grab it in a panic because you saw a zombie and got scared, and then eventually you're busy looting a bunch of crap, hear a sound, and then smoothly reach for your gun, grab it, aim, and shoot all in one motion It's disappointing not because the mechanic is objectively bad or detrimental on its own, it's disappointing because they are missing a large opportunity to add something that plays to VR's strength and instead they went for a boring option
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Apr 3, 2020 21:16
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The difference with a keyboard is that it gives you physical feedback, because you can feel it. A VR door doesn’t.
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Apr 3, 2020 21:18
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cargohills posted:The difference with a keyboard is that it gives you physical feedback, because you can feel it. A VR door doesn’t. It takes more work but you can absolutely do a ton with the audio, visual, and haptic feedback you have access to. You can do things as subtle as give the gun a distinctive rumble when you grab it so you will be able to instantly tell if you grabbed the right thing or not, combine that with some audio of it "powering up" or whatever when you successfully grab it and I guarantee you will be able to instantly tell if you grabbed a gun that's out of view correctly or not
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Apr 3, 2020 21:21
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Tom Guycot posted:See, I can't agree with the idea that having holstered weapons is somehow a janky risky thing to do that can cause problems, when literally every VR game with weapons has done it this way for years and years at this point. Somehow every single other action VR game manages to do this just fine.
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Apr 3, 2020 21:23
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Again, every single other VR action game manages to holster weapons without issue.
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Apr 3, 2020 21:23
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well that just seems like an exaggeration
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Apr 3, 2020 21:24
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Sounds like Valve are just a bunch of dopes imho
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