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Subjunctive posted:People can definitely change patterns, even long-standing ones, but in cases like this it’s up to the person changing to do the work, and find a way to convince people that the new pattern is the “real one”. If he spent some time with a therapist and such and painted a convincing picture of what he learned and how he changed, I might Consume His Content again, but I don’t feel like anyone owes him some bright line definition of what those changes or convincing picture would look like. People will know it when they see it, and maybe they never will. Adam Koebel is not a convict, and indeed has suffered no legal consequences, and will not. Being awful in this manner is not illegal, I’m pretty sure, and that, among other things, is why treatment of convicted criminals after they serve their sentence is not at all comparable.
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Apr 4, 2020 18:44
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Adam is bad but contracts don’t usually say “in case of gently caress up I get to name my replacement.” And who’s gonna want to take the reins, knowing they’ll only be perceived as hired because someone else was a creep?
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Apr 4, 2020 18:46
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Golden Bee posted:Adam is bad but contracts don’t usually say “in case of gently caress up I get to name my replacement.” And who’s gonna want to take the reins, knowing they’ll only be perceived as hired because someone else was a creep? I'm not sure there's a big shortage of people who want to be streaming DMs and have a recognizable name like there seems to be ten new ones a month Just pick one of them
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Apr 4, 2020 18:53
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 19:01
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For what it's worth It's pretty likely if drops out of those deals the they'd just cut bait with the entire show, and unfortunately likely the rest of the cast. It's also kinda madness to expect a new GM to come in and just continue running someone else's show and built up story. He potentially could have hosed up a ton of other people's money and livelyhood.
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Apr 4, 2020 19:07
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 19:09
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Isn't the whole point of the systems and games he writes and promotes that players are tightly involved with creating the narrative? It doesn't seem too far-fetched to me. In the games he writes and promotes maybe, but I'm aware of like 5 games he run/ran Court of Swords which is 5e Jace Beleren Must Die which is 5e Far Verona which was Genesys and Stars without Number Eat the Rich, which is Zweihander Roll 20 Presents BG:DiA(they play whatever 5e adventure, dragon heist, mad mage, ToA etc etc) And while yes tabletop is a collaborative storytelling enviroment bringing a new GM to carry on for someone else is a terrible position to be put in. If they cut bait, which would be completely justified, I'd rather they just start over fresh new story with the same cast and a new GM. It's like what happened with Dice camera action after the Jared and Holly nonsense. They were players that they pulled out and they are still trying to get that replacement show up and running. Dexo fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Apr 4, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 19:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I also don't think the idea was that Adam gets to dictate anything, he could be proactive about helping protect people from himself while keeping them employed in these events.
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Apr 4, 2020 20:09
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This whole thing sounds like an opening has been created in streamed RPGs. An opening that could be filled... by System Mastery! Actually no, that whole thing looks like it kinda sucks.
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Apr 4, 2020 20:23
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 20:32
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It's also worth noting, because I see some misconceptions: It was the entire group that quit, not just the player in question.
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Apr 4, 2020 20:39
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theironjef posted:This whole thing sounds like an opening has been created in streamed RPGs. An opening that could be filled... by System Mastery! I wouldn't want you guys to subject yourself to the Sauron's Eye of "You're doing it wrong." Or whatever mods you set up in the chat room.
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Apr 4, 2020 22:46
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Dawgstar posted:I wouldn't want you guys to subject yourself to the Sauron's Eye of "You're doing it wrong." Or whatever mods you set up in the chat room. Based on my hard hitting research of looking at like two screenshots, there's not enough makeup in the world for us to be acceptable in that medium.
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Apr 4, 2020 23:00
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theironjef posted:Based on my hard hitting research of looking at like two screenshots, there's not enough makeup in the world for us to be acceptable in that medium. Look, I won't BELIEVE it unless I can actually SEE Jon's single marshmallow on a silver tray and his book about ghosts.
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Apr 5, 2020 00:55
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CitizenKeen posted:That does not feel like a constructive answer... When you're at the point of livestreaming "just gonna rape your character real quick" in front of the entire internet, I'm no longer particularly interested in constructive answers. It's me, the person who doesn't give a poo poo about Adam Koebel's redemption arc and would be satisfied with him crawling under a rock and staying there. Once again, if this was any person other than That Dungeon World guy, nobody would even remotely be interested in hearing his apology or trying to figure out what the appropriate response is or any of this poo poo, the same thing happened at some convention where a guy ran a game that sprung surprise rape on the players and guess what, nobody anywhere on the internet spent three fuckin pages arguing about proper apology construction, the unanimous reaction was "gently caress that guy" and the convention banned him, end of story.
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Apr 5, 2020 04:19
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It's not like someone accidentally used a slur they've been trying to remove from their habitual vocabulary after years of being an rear end in a top hat online. This was a heated gaming scene-length.
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Apr 5, 2020 04:25
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Argas posted:It's not like someone accidentally used a slur they've been trying to remove from their habitual vocabulary after years of being an rear end in a top hat online. This was a heated gaming scene-length. There is absolutely zero percent chance that this could possibly have been accidental, and all the discourse about safety tools (even though safety tools are important) is simply irrelevant given that it's been made abundantly clear by the player in question that she and Adam discussed things beforehand, in detail, about where she wanted her character's story to go, and none of it involved "forced to have cyber-orgasms by an NPC that was made out to be a trusted contact while Adam laughs about it and everyone else wishes a crack in the earth would open up and swallow him whole." There is no loving apology that's sufficient, there's no excuse of "oh I totally forgot about safety tools!" that remotely passes muster, if ever someone was going to rightly get "cancelled" it would be for something like this.
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Apr 5, 2020 04:37
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Kai Tave posted:There is absolutely zero percent chance that this could possibly have been accidental, and all the discourse about safety tools (even though safety tools are important) is simply irrelevant given that it's been made abundantly clear by the player in question that she and Adam discussed things beforehand, in detail, about where she wanted her character's story to go, and none of it involved "forced to have cyber-orgasms by an NPC that was made out to be a trusted contact while Adam laughs about it and everyone else wishes a crack in the earth would open up and swallow him whole." There is no loving apology that's sufficient, there's no excuse of "oh I totally forgot about safety tools!" that remotely passes muster, if ever someone was going to rightly get "cancelled" it would be for something like this. Yeah, I was saying (poorly) that this couldn't be an accident. I can believe heated gaming moments are real even if they often aren't because habits die hard and a lot of people used to do lovely things when younger, but this? This doesn't happen by accident. Argas fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Apr 5, 2020 |
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Apr 5, 2020 05:33
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Argas posted:Yeah, I was saying (poorly) that this couldn't be an accident. Sorry, if it wasn't clear I was wholeheartedly agreeing with you, I got your point and it's spot on. There's "aw poo poo in the moment I slipped and hosed up" and then there's this.
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Apr 5, 2020 05:52
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Kai Tave posted:Sorry, if it wasn't clear I was wholeheartedly agreeing with you, I got your point and it's spot on. There's "aw poo poo in the moment I slipped and hosed up" and then there's this. Haha, whoops.
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Apr 5, 2020 06:11
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So are we just not gonna mention page 420 during 4/20 or what because
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Apr 5, 2020 06:56
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Apr 5, 2020 07:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Fine, you get advantage on your doobie roll. Look grandpa this is 2020 we get cyberhigh on our *looks it up* candy flavored vape pens totally not marketed at kids
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Apr 5, 2020 07:45
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Kai Tave posted:When you're at the point of livestreaming "just gonna rape your character real quick" in front of the entire internet, I'm no longer particularly interested in constructive answers. It's me, the person who doesn't give a poo poo about Adam Koebel's redemption arc and would be satisfied with him crawling under a rock and staying there. That's absolutely fine. If the answer is "gently caress that guy, I never want to see him again", that's fine. But when I posited by question of "Hey, half the thread seems to want to see some positive change out of this dude, and the other half want to see him drop off a cliff and never return, and I don't see how he could do both.", an answer of "Yes" doesn't really do... anything. That has nothing to do with Koebel and him being a shitheel, that's just lovely forum posting.
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Apr 5, 2020 07:46
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CitizenKeen posted:That's absolutely fine. If the answer is "gently caress that guy, I never want to see him again", that's fine. But when I posited by question of "Hey, half the thread seems to want to see some positive change out of this dude, and the other half want to see him drop off the a cliff and never return, and I don't see how he could do both.", an answer of "Yes" doesn't really do... anything. That has nothing to do with Koebel and him being a shitheel, that's just lovely forum posting. I don't think that's an entirely fair reading of the matter. Here's your post: CitizenKeen posted:How does Koebel demonstrate a pattern of improved behavior, given that many seen to want him to stop streaming? Like. Stopping streaming isn't dropping off a cliff never to return. It's turning down a loving revenue stream. He can stop streaming TTRPGs forever and still show tons of personal growth on the matter.
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Apr 5, 2020 07:55
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Darwinism posted:I don't think that's an entirely fair reading of the matter. Here's your post: I stand corrected. I guess my question was more how someone who makes their living in the public eye, is known for being in the public eye, and did something horrible in the public eye, shows growth on that front... without being in the public eye. Like, I'm assuming "Gee, everybody, I played in my private games for a year and nothing bad happens" doesn't cut it. I was more addressing what I perceived to be a dichotomy of demanded action. If I mischaracterized what I said earlier, I apologize - I wasn't intending to deceive or reframe.
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Apr 5, 2020 07:59
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CitizenKeen posted:I stand corrected. I guess my question was more how someone who makes their living in the public eye, is known for being in the public eye, and did something horrible in the public eye, shows growth on that front... without being in the public eye. Like, I'm assuming "Gee, everybody, I played in my private games for a year and nothing bad happens" doesn't cut it. I was more addressing what I perceived to be a dichotomy of demanded action. If I mischaracterized what I said earlier, I apologize - I wasn't intending to deceive or reframe. The thing is that there's no concrete point that anyone can state. I'm sure it's feasibly possible this dude can come back from this in some way but it takes time at the very, very least to show a pattern of behavior. Also why is there an assumption that a person deserves a way back to everything being the same as it was before their massive, continued, persistent, denied gently caress-up?
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Apr 5, 2020 08:09
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CitizenKeen posted:I stand corrected. I guess my question was more how someone who makes their living in the public eye, is known for being in the public eye, and did something horrible in the public eye, shows growth on that front... without being in the public eye. Like, I'm assuming "Gee, everybody, I played in my private games for a year and nothing bad happens" doesn't cut it. I was more addressing what I perceived to be a dichotomy of demanded action. If I mischaracterized what I said earlier, I apologize - I wasn't intending to deceive or reframe. Maybe Adam Koebel doesn't deserve to, and shouldn't, get a free pass to return to the public eye of the elfgameosphere after this, period. He can run all the games he wants to on his own time, maybe even write them if he wants, but even if he were somehow forced to exile himself from RPGs forever and a day his life isn't over, he can get another fuckin job doing something else and hopefully keep his rape-jokey urges in check there. I am not personally invested in seeing "growth" on his part, dude's already a grown-rear end man and there's literally no excuse for this sort of thing beyond "I'm a lovely person and this time I didn't keep it under wraps." The hobby will not unduly suffer for his absence.
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Apr 5, 2020 08:12
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Darwinism posted:Also why is there an assumption that a person deserves a way back to everything being the same as it was before their massive, continued, persistent, denied gently caress-up? I would not assume there is at all. I'm not defending him, I'm not arguing for him having any path at all. What he did was disgusting, I want nothing more of his content. Again, I felt like their was dichotomy in reading the thread. I couldn't rectify that in my head, and I was asking a question, because I feel like a lot of people here I respect have a better grasp on these issues than I do. I feel like I'm antagonizing people, so I'll sit the rest of this one out. I'm sorry if I was overly pedantic or antagonistic or was stirring poo poo up.
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Apr 5, 2020 08:15
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Kai Tave posted:Maybe Adam Koebel doesn't deserve to, and shouldn't, get a free pass to return to the public eye of the elfgameosphere after this, period. He can run all the games he wants to on his own time, maybe even write them if he wants, but even if he were somehow forced to exile himself from RPGs forever and a day his life isn't over, he can get another fuckin job doing something else and hopefully keep his rape-jokey urges in check there. I am not personally invested in seeing "growth" on his part, dude's already a grown-rear end man and there's literally no excuse for this sort of thing beyond "I'm a lovely person and this time I didn't keep it under wraps." The hobby will not unduly suffer for his absence. I wasn't making these arguments, and I feel like I'm getting quoted as a counterpoint to what you're trying to say? I agree with you completely.
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Apr 5, 2020 08:16
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CitizenKeen posted:I wasn't making these arguments, and I feel like I'm getting quoted as a counterpoint to what you're trying to say? I agree with you completely. I'm not really arguing against you, I'm just stating my position since there's been mention of "half the thread seems to want growth, half wants him to gently caress off," that I am very much on the "gently caress off" side of the equation. I do not actually see how a path to redemption for this sort of behavior would even begin to happen in a way that leads to a satisfactory outcome.
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Apr 5, 2020 08:26
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Why can't growth be loving off?
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Apr 5, 2020 09:09
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Darwinism posted:Why can't growth be loving off? Exactly this. Sometimes loving off rather than needing to be validated in public is precisely the growth required.
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Apr 5, 2020 09:17
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Exactly this. Sometimes loving off rather than needing to be validated in public is precisely the growth required. This is a better way of summarizing a thought that was rattling around in my head but I couldn't quite put so succinctly, yes. There is probably something to the idea that becoming a Famous Online Personality, even in a niche hobby sphere, is not actually all that great for things like staying grounded, not doing extremely stupid poo poo as your clout goes to your head, etc. If loving off is the form of growth he chooses to take I'm fully supportive of it.
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Apr 5, 2020 09:59
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Perhaps if you have a deep investment in a continued career and/or involvement in something, it should be a reason to not gently caress up and act like a total rear end in a top hat and then behave in a fashion that makes it feel like you don't deserve a second chance. Like, woah it sucks that you have to change careers and all your previous work turned out for nothing, too bad none of that kept you from sexually assaulting another person's character on stream for a show you were doing.
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Apr 6, 2020 00:56
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I really really hate the mindset that we need to keep giving abusers second chances because they're creatives on the internet and it would be an incredible hardship for them to go get a job like a normal person. No, we are obligated to engage with this abuser and support their patreon because otherwise we are literally starving them.
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Apr 6, 2020 01:10
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Argas posted:Perhaps if you have a deep investment in a continued career and/or involvement in something, it should be a reason to not gently caress up and act like a total rear end in a top hat and then behave in a fashion that makes it feel like you don't deserve a second chance. I completely agree, and this is basically the thing for me. I've been running games for over 25 years, and I've never felt the need, even with my friends and I being dumb idiots goofing around in high school, to have a PC get sexually assaulted, or even have sexual violence remotely "on screen." Every time this comes up I have to wonder what in the unalloyed gently caress is wrong with that GM? If I ever engaged in sexual harassment like this at work-and let's make no mistake, if his stream is his job, that's where he is-I'd be fired lightning fast, and I'm a civil servant who is also in a union. Adam losing his gig because of this is the result of his own poo poo behavior, and he's going to have to live with that.
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Apr 6, 2020 01:14
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lol at being so horny you broadcast and blow up your career describing giving a robot a forced orgasm. I don't really give a poo poo about adam, or what he does but drat does that video still bring up heady poo poo for me. There's lots of troubling subjects that can bring up bad poo poo for players in RPG's , like illness & racism, hell anything to do with children in peril sometimes can make me uneasy. Most of this poo poo is easy to frame in context of the rpg and game, and you can joke and enjoy the absurd fantasy violence or whatever. But man, for anyone who has suffered through sexual abuse having it brought up during a rpg session really seems to trigger the memory/feelings unlike most other mentions in life. I feel it must be a combination of slightly being out of your headspace RPing, and the GM being in a position where whatever he says usally controls and dictates the 'reality' of the game. Hell, even some throwaway lines from a friend that during carousing my character got blackout drunk and ended up sleeping with someone he disliked made me feel weird at the time, even though i find it ridiculous now. I don't really have to deal with it tbh as my group, which consists of a bunch of normie idiot "lads", seem to magically avoid bringing up actions of sexual assault, which might be too hard for the extremely plugged in Koebel to refrain from during his online show. Proud Rat Mom fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 03:27
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it's like the joke when streamers say The Gamer Word, 'you had a dream setup where you were able to just play games and poo poo with a fan base and everything, and all you had to do was not be a colossal piece of poo poo'
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Apr 6, 2020 04:08
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Proud Rat Mom posted:Hell, even some throwaway lines from a friend that during carousing my character got blackout drunk and ended up sleeping with someone he disliked made me feel weird at the time, even though i find it ridiculous now. I dunno, I think I'd feel pretty skeeved about this too tbh, I don't think you finding that weird is all that unusual.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:41
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