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nvm I guess I complete forgot his backstory
oh jay fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 02:36
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Can’t wait to watch the anime thread do this in two years 
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Apr 6, 2020 02:38
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Professorjuggalo posted:Can’t wait to watch the anime thread do this in two years
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Apr 6, 2020 02:39
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Lord_Magmar posted:Twice also was a one man crime spree before his traumatic clone slaughter experience. Right, I guess I should've said Twice lost his family at a young age, grew up in an orphanage, got a criminal record through a minor accident which led to him losing his job, being unable to find a new one and eventually becoming homeless. Before finally resorting to criminal acts to get by eventually escalating into a major crime spree which ended in his clones all killing each-other giving himself huge identity issues and a deep fear that he wasn't even real before eventually finding the only people who ever cared about him in his whole life among a gang of supervillains. Life wasn't kind to the guy.
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Apr 6, 2020 02:43
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Fabricated posted:The way they ended halfway into the Pro Hero stuff means the anime thread gets to have the Endeavor discussion for like 6 months Sort of makes me wonder how they’re going to handle the obligatory recap episode for season 5 considering 4 ended right in the middle of a story arc.
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Apr 6, 2020 02:44
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Right, I guess I should've said Twice lost his family at a young age, grew up in an orphanage, got a criminal record through a minor accident which led to him losing his job, being unable to find a new one and eventually becoming homeless. Before finally resorting to criminal acts to get by eventually escalating into a major crime spree which ended in his clones all killing each-other giving himself huge identity issues and a deep fear that he wasn't even real before eventually finding the only people who ever cared about him in his whole life among a gang of supervillains. Never said it was, I was just pointing out that he didn’t fall through the cracks because of his quirk, and in face it’s suggested he fell in spite of his quirk because of how theoretically useful it would have been to society. His life sucks a lot and the entire story of Twice is a tragedy, I just felt it important to note that neither his quirk or his mental trauma are what caused his criminal acts.
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Apr 6, 2020 02:53
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The MHA society being kinda' poo poo when you scratch beneath the primary layer of uncynical Shonen storytelling is a pretty consistent beat, and people with potentially useful quirks (or just mediocre quirks with limited applications) flaming out and falling through the cracks has been something we've seen a fair few times. It still irks me that at most the only "heroes" at stake are ancillary ones (straight up deaths have been characters introduced a half-dozen pages before they get jobbed, Nighteye being the only exception), Class 1-A is functionally plot-armored, and the only group to have bled primary characters have been the VA. Like, why SHOULDN'T I feel for Twice, or feel more inclined to root for them, when they're the only primary characters whose lives seem to actually be at stake? TheKingofSprings posted:I seem to remember said government assassin asking Twice pretty nicely to just not use his quirk to commit terrorism anymore and turn himself in before killing him asking nicely, lmao. If one of the VA had killed someone running away with a back-shot/stab there'd be no end to the griping about how their only possible destiny in the story was death, but mr. CIA Assassin over here gets all the excuses you can imagine.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:10
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The only morally correct person in this manga is stain
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Apr 6, 2020 03:14
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Hawks killing Twice isn't heroic. Twice wasn't running away. Hope this helps.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:18
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Professorjuggalo posted:The only morally correct person in this manga is stain Any hero not measuring up (or attempting to measure up) to the example set by All Might is the setting's equivalent of a centrist. At best. Dr Subterfuge posted:Twice wasn't running away. Hope this helps. "escape from a place, person, or situation." Twice was literally running away. Hope this helps.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:20
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Lord_Magmar posted:Never said it was, I was just pointing out that he didn’t fall through the cracks because of his quirk, and in face it’s suggested he fell in spite of his quirk because of how theoretically useful it would have been to society. His life sucks a lot and the entire story of Twice is a tragedy, I just felt it important to note that neither his quirk or his mental trauma are what caused his criminal acts. I consider his life falling to pieces from getting a minor record as him falling through the cracks, because that's not how that's supposed to go. You're not supposed to lose everything you have from an accident. It wasn't his quirk that caused him to get poo poo on by society, it was something way more mundane. It's just that he was a poor dude with a record but he still got hosed over because of things totally out of his control. Which is what led to his crime spree that also quickly spiralled out of control and left him even worse off. I know I talked about his quirk when comparing him to Shinsou but it was probably my mistake to use him for comparison because yeah, they're not too similar. I don't mean to say his big crimes were justified or anything, just that society really failed the guy and it's hard to compare what he or most of the VA went through with the heroes experiences because the villain's backstories play up the tragedy more and I don't think there's many of the good guys who have been in similar situations.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:23
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It is legitimately a problem at this point that the focal point of the story is 20 kids who mostly come from relatively well adjusted, normal backgrounds and the series has gone out of it's way to not inflict any sort of lasting harm to.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:26
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The real Villain: Poverty and the Bourgeoisie Unironicly
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Apr 6, 2020 03:27
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KazigluBey posted:"escape from a place, person, or situation." This reasoning is hilarious cause his motives are super clear and the first Twice to get away stabs a guy to death. Guy wasn't exactly a victim of the Pre-Crime division.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:29
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Lord_Magmar posted:His life sucks a lot and the entire story of Twice is a tragedy, I just felt it important to note that neither his quirk or his mental trauma are what caused his criminal acts. Nah, it was the fact that the alternative to a life of crime was starving to death on the street. It's a weakness of a story focused on superheroes--we get to see society's efforts to glorify state sponsored violence, but we don't get to see soup kitchens or what mental health care is available to a parentless sixteen year old child--and you've gotta imagine there are more than a few of them wandering around in this setting full of adolescents with super powers they can't control, see Shirageki and that kid who emits sarin gas or whatever from the Miruko/Deku/Bakugo crossover comic. (Heroes did save that kid from a quirk he couldn't control! Then they sent him to jail. Do you think he'll be more or less socially adjusted after incarceration?) We never see government or society efforts to rehabilitate villains... just Hawks showing up, betraying Twice and sending the only people in the world who ever trusted him and supported him to jail, and then saying, "Hey also go to jail and don't try to save your friends, I was lying to you every other time we ever spoke about anything but this time I'm being honest." There was absolutely no chance of that working. Again, Gorilla cop best cop... assuming he wasn't just lying about a better future to coax a confession out of Gentle. I'm super interested in seeing where Gentle and La Brava wind up at the end of this mess, it feels like they could wind up on any side of the conflict. Professorjuggalo posted:The only morally correct person in this manga is stain Stain was right, a society solely based around hero worship needs flawless heroes.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:35
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Twice is at once sympathetic for his history and the action he's taken and was literally working to help a mass murder take place. Both can co-exist.Mystic Mongol posted:We never see government or society efforts to rehabilitate villains. We see this pretty regularly in Vigilantes actually.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:35
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ImpAtom posted:Twice is at once sympathetic for his history and the action he's taken and was literally working to help a mass murder take place. Both can co-exist. Vigilantes is so much better, because when Koichi defeats a villain, that villain reintegrates into society, because he's a hero. When Endeavor or Eraserhead or Deku defeats someone, they go to jail, because they're cops. (Vigilantes Eraserhead is a cooler dude) I wanted a hero to save Twice from Dabi and Hawks, dammit.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:37
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The in-universe justification was (as several people pointed out) the band-aid solution to Horikoshi deciding that Double was one of those quirks he overshot and now needed to correct for, even though he'd written two extremely self-evident flaws into it that have been brought up in the story (and are thus not just online theory-crafting), so super-smooth operator Hawks ignores them in service of painting Double as some AFO/Overhaul tier quirk, justifying murder if suppression wasn't an option. Like, sure, heroes might end up having to use lethal force but the manga so far has painted that as both an extremely rare occurrence and nowhere near one of the options most heroes would consider. So there's all this justification built-up for Twice that's absent in just about every other case - all of Overhaul's murderous, suicidal goons got taken alive, ffs- and it's the incongruity that sucks to me.TheHan posted:This reasoning is hilarious cause his motives are super clear and the first Twice to get away stabs a guy to death. Guy wasn't exactly a victim of the Pre-Crime division. His motives of meeting up with the rest of his crew and avoiding getting merked by Hawks. I agree, very clear. Also had Hawks not tried to kill him it's entirely possible he could have freed Toga/Compress in any number of other ways. In fact, I'm happy to say that the nameless snake guy who got jobbed would have been fine had Hawks not tried to kill Twice. I can play this game too, see? Funny you should mention Minority Report, when the entire justification for the attempted murder was the (erroneous) belief that left to his own devices Twice would guarantee some kind of societal collapse and the inevitable triumph of villainy. Lmao.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:40
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Mystic Mongol posted:Vigilantes is so much better, because when Koichi defeats a villain, that villain reintegrates into society, because he's a hero. When Endeavor or Eraserhead or Deku defeats someone, they go to jail, because they're cops. (Vigilantes Eraserhead is a cooler dude) not empty quoting
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Apr 6, 2020 03:43
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Superman, watching as Zod slowly pans his hellbeams towards a loving family: No! I’ve been contrived into a scenario where my only choice is to kill Zod, but there’s no way to know with 100% certainty if Zod will commit to fully roasting them, or if the family could survive the onslaught of his hellbeams! Heavy are the shoulders that wear the cape.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:49
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TheHan posted:Superman, watching as Zod slowly pans his hellbeams towards a loving family: No! I’ve been contrived into a scenario where my only choice is to kill Zod, but there’s no way to know with 100% certainty if Zod will commit to fully roasting them, or if the family could survive the onslaught of his hellbeams! Heavy are the shoulders that wear the cape. Yeah, that's basically the worst version of Superman.  Second worst.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:52
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TheHan posted:Superman, watching as Zod slowly pans his hellbeams towards a loving family: No! I’ve been contrived into a scenario where my only choice is to kill Zod, but there’s no way to know with 100% certainty if Zod will commit to fully roasting them, or if the family could survive the onslaught of his hellbeams! Heavy are the shoulders that wear the cape. You keep picking the worst examples; the cinematic universe where Superman pretty much lets a bomb go off in a crowded courtroom and then looks sad not because of the loss of life, but because it personally inconvenienced him. Hmm yes. If you think the terrible Zod scene in MoS is a slam-dunk I don't know what to tell you. That scene was poo poo and there were any number of other ways for it to end, and opening your Superman franchise with him killing after pretending you were going to do All-Star Superman in the trailers is a big lol.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:57
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In retrospect I should’ve used Wonder Woman snapping Max Lord’s neck as an example, but that Man of Steel scene was funnier. I mean neither Hawks nor Twice are being cast in a heroic light so I don’t get the reasoning behind working so hard to play Hawks as the villain here.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:06
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KazigluBey posted:You keep picking the worst examples; the cinematic universe where Superman pretty much lets a bomb go off in a crowded courtroom and then looks sad not because of the loss of life, but because it personally inconvenienced him. Hmm yes. This is the stupidest take I’ve ever seen and I’ve been posting in this thread for years
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Apr 6, 2020 04:06
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Man, I hope that black text box of Dabi's ends up being relevant shortly! I can't wait for the Todoroki reveal! It's gonna be so good!
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Apr 6, 2020 04:09
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:This is the stupidest take I’ve ever seen and I’ve been posting in this thread for years I'm sorry, I was exaggerating, but was there any other way to look at the slow pan to his face while the courtroom burned, instead of him just jumping into action? e.: I just looked it up again, what expression did Zack even ask Cavil to do, there? It seriously reads as "oh bother, guess I have to clean this up." Cavil's a good actor, if he'd been asked to act horrified or enraged or anything else, he would have. He just looks miffed and the slow pan is weird as gently caress. Zack Snyder's take on Superman blows, I'm not sure that's really a controversial opinion. TheHan posted:I mean neither Hawks nor Twice are being cast in a heroic light so I don’t get the reasoning behind working so hard to play Hawks as the villain here. I don't think the justifications Hawks was using for why Twice needed to die hold up, both in-universe and out, and I find it weird people are working so hard to justify Hawks' actions when the rest of the manga is extremely light on the lethal force from the Hero/Government side, as far as we've been shown. KazigluBey fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 04:12
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Dabi is actually deku’s dadKazigluBey posted:I'm sorry, I was exaggerating, but was there any other way to look at the slow pan to his face while the courtroom burned, instead of him just jumping into action? Jump into action to do what, use super-housekeeping to sweep all of the cremated remains into a pile? Everyone in the courtroom was loving dead. Babysitter Super Sleuth fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 04:12
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Twice is/was the most sympathetic and pitiable member of the League. We're supposed to feel bad about Hawks killing him but loving lol at thinking that Hawks is the real problem here and not the terrorist army about to be unleashed.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:13
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It’s almost like the point being made is that Hawks is a child soldier trained by the government to act only within their commands and not any real sense of heroism. Twisting his desire to be a hero into making him a weapon of oppression. Which is pretty much what’s being portrayed here. This doesn’t change that if Twice was allowed to act freely during this assault he absolutely would have stopped the hero’s raid on the Paranormal Liberation Front double-handedly. I would also like to point out plenty of heroes would disagree with the kill, and that Hawks went through with it is meant to be a bad action on his part. If he’s fast enough to kill he’s fast enough to knock-out and ironically if he had incapacitated Twice instead of offering the deal and then flown away with him whilst he is unconscious this issue would not have happened. Doing what the Hero Commission wanted, that is convince Twice to become their one-man arm, is potentially going to lead to Hawk’s death too. Mystic Mongol posted:Vigilantes is so much better, because when Koichi defeats a villain, that villain reintegrates into society, because he's a hero. When Endeavor or Eraserhead or Deku defeats someone, they go to jail, because they're cops. (Vigilantes Eraserhead is a cooler dude) Koichi usually faces villains who are either already repentant, dangerous for reasons outside their control, or being mind controlled. Meanwhile so far every actual villain Deku has defeated posed a threat current and future to people of their own volition and clearly has no desire to reintegrate in the first place. Heck I’m pretty sure there are villains in Vigilantes who have not reintegrated, and Gentle Criminal literally has been given a second chance that he accepted as opposed to Twice who refused it, admittedly Twice’s second chance was a load of bullshit and he should not have accepted it anyway.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:13
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As Ace Attorney and Randy Pitchford taught me, all magicians are scumbags and I can't wait for Hawks to rip off Compress's other arm.Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Dani is actually deku’s dad Inko ripped his skin off with her telekinesis when he tried to run off on her.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:16
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The takes that hero society is secretly bad are really tiresome and moronic. It really is a shame all these selfless people can't be omnipresent and fix all problems.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:18
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Hawks assassinating Twice definitely wasn't heroic. Going by the metrics of heroism laid out in the story it's some weak villain poo poo that All Might would never have been okay with. But All Might wasn't a normal hero, and the story keeps shouting that whenever it can. This is just how a pragmatic, rational, mortally threatened society takes care of potential (and motivated) extreme threats. They eliminate them however they can. If you didn't feel sad when Twice died, and feel wronged by Hawks for it, you're wrong. In terms of lives saved though? I don't know if Twice could really be stopped once he truly got going. His power is horrifying when used as he did against the Liberation Army. Hawks probably "saved" every hero there. For whatever reason his mission has always been to play in the background and provide unseen support for the "real" heroes. This tracks with that perfectly, but I think we're going to see him get really upset that Tokoyami is being dragged into his muck
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Apr 6, 2020 04:21
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Lord_Magmar posted:This doesn’t change that if Twice was allowed to act freely during this assault he absolutely would have stopped the hero’s raid on the Paranormal Liberation Front double-handedly. I really don't agree with this. Have the rules of Double been changed? Each successive clone is dissipated more easily than the last, and the effect becomes more pronounced the further down the chain you go. There are any number of Heroes that have area of effect attacks, Double is a really neat glass-cannon move and fantastic when used as it was during the training camp raid, but massed? It takes one good AoE to knock most clones out, and even one-off first-gen clones haven't really been that impressive thus far, as seen in the Overhaul arc. Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Jump into action to do what, use super-housekeeping to sweep all of the cremated remains into a pile? Everyone in the courtroom was loving dead. The literal next scene transition has people being brought out of the building. Supes even brings one out! There were people to be saved, even if not directly in that room, and Superman of all people would have been aware of it. It's bad writing. KazigluBey fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 04:21
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One million clones with guns having the resilience of wet paper doesn't change the fact that one million clones are shooting you with their one million guns.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:23
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Twice and everyone in the VA are mass murderers with no clear overriding moral justification who, from the perspective of info the cops have, cannot be rehabilitated and Hawks was legally and morally justified in killing him.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:25
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The concern isn't a million clones of Twice, with normal human strength and durability. It's a million clones of Dabis, Gigantomachias, and High Ends, in increasing order of severity.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:27
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Literally everyone in universe, both heroes and villains, agreed that if Twice got going, he would have wiped out the heroes there.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:29
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KazigluBey posted:I really don't agree with this. Have the rules of Double been changed? Each successive clone is dissipated more easily than the last, and the effect becomes more pronounced the further down the chain you go. There are any number of Heroes that have area of effect attacks, Double is a really neat glass-cannon move and fantastic when used as it was during the training camp raid, but massed? It takes one good AoE to knock most clones out, and even one-off first-gen clones haven't really been that impressive thus far, as seen in the Overhaul arc. We, uh, literally saw what Sad Man's Parade can do to swing a battle when he unleashed it on the Liberation Front and singlehandedly began shithousing an entire city full of what amounted to cultist zealots. The Double clones grow progressively more fragile as more are made, but their offensive abilities are completely undiminished. On screen, last chapter, we saw a crippled clone on the verge of total dissolution manage to violently stab a pro hero to death. It doesn't really matter if you can AoE them down because all it takes is one Dabi clone roasting your rear end or one Toga clone stabbing you to death while you're distracted with the other gazillion clones to kill you, and there are a finite number of heroes and an effectively infinite number of Twice clones as long as you can't reach Twice Prime. "Double isn't even that powerful!" is a blazingly hot take when we've had it beaten into our heads and have quite literally been shown in the text that it's an army-wiping superweapon of a quirk.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:30
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Hawks is a pretty lovely amoral CIA hitman considering he basically got himself killed trying to non-lethally subdue Twice instead of just mercing him unawares. Also: KazigluBey posted:I really don't agree with this. Have the rules of Double been changed? Each successive clone is dissipated more easily than the last, and the effect becomes more pronounced the further down the chain you go. There are any number of Heroes that have area of effect attacks, Double is a really neat glass-cannon move and fantastic when used as it was during the training camp raid, but massed? It takes one good AoE to knock most clones out, and even one-off first-gen clones haven't really been that impressive thus far, as seen in the Overhaul arc. We just saw Twice be unstoppable against a literal army of weaponized quirk users. This is the exact same scenario. There is no real answer for Twice if he's in the back somewhere infinitely making clones. Hawks figured out he had to stop Twice from the get go for that exact reason. An AoE attack will take out scores and scores of Twice clones but that just frees up more space for the infinite number coming to back them up. And not everyone in every part of the fight will have a giant AoE to take on Twice's army. And the heroes likely can't afford to just blanket AoE blast a giant loving quagmire of Twice clones because you'll end up doing a lot of friendly fire that way. Geten has the most powerful AoE quirk we've seen short of Todoroki and he couldn't even slow down Twice. For months now we have been assured and reminded that yes, Double is easily the most dangerous quirk in this entire scenario. And that is true. This isn't even taking into account that he can also make an army of his own dangerous and powerful teammates, too. Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 04:30
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Hawks going for the kill shot on Twice isn’t bad because of one singular reason, it’s bad because it’s the culmination of everything flawed in hero society crystallizing into one moment. On one side you have a guy who fell into a self-reinforcing spiral of violence and crime because people were entirely too willing to label him as a supervillain undeserving of pity or redemption and was unwilling to reach out due to fear of reprisal, and on the other you have a guy who appears to have been groomed from childhood to be a supersoldier “perfect” hero that acts as the unsupervised arm of the authoritarian state. There are a lot of choices that could have been made to avoid this but they didn’t happen, so now the sum of hero society’s flaws are gonna come to a head, because two guys made the exact wrong decisions on account of not knowing any better.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:31
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