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Jacobin did a good thing on real idpol vs. liberal shitpol last night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FztmNrp08yY Red Oktober posted:Different versions of this all over the place. Most are saying it’s an attempted murder arrest. e: In April 29, 1992 the LAPD were acquitted for the attempted murder arrest of Rodney King. Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 10:18
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jaete posted:I still don't know what "organising around identity" or indeed "identity politics" actually means. It seems that no politician anywhere ever mentions the word "identity", at least not explicitly, and instead "identity politics" or whatever is like a derogatory term? Identity politics is about stuffing people into little pigeon holes, then treating them as a homogeneous mass rather than actual thinking, breathing people. Which is why it appeals so much to technocrats. You are a WOMAN? As a WOMAN you should vote for a Hillary Clinton who is a WOMAN beep boop (ignores that 40% of women vote for trump).
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Apr 8, 2020 10:18
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Braggart posted:Hey all. Hope you’re okay. I’m good, but not following the thread. Running my mouth off in the discord though Oh hey dude! I missed seeing your posts in here
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Apr 8, 2020 10:19
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peanut- posted:Maybe not inherently, but practically identity politics has been heavily co-opted by liberals as a weapon against the left. The exact same pattern is playing out in the US, where bullshit IDPOL reasons are conjured up to manufacture justifications for liberals ignoring Sanders, before being immediately thrown by the wayside with regards to Biden. Anyone pushing a genuinely transformative, class-based agenda is going to be hit with the exact same smears. See to me this seems more like a critique of specifics circumstances. In the same way that class analysis has often been co-opted by reactionaries. I don't think you can lay the blame for that on the people trying to do the best they can. jaete posted:Identity as a concept seems like an appeal to emotions kind of thing, which in politics is potentially dangerous imo Mate, i hate to tell you this but everything is an appeal to emotions. Trying to talk solely in graphs and charts and so on is also an appeal to the emotion of "You are smart because you understand this".
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Apr 8, 2020 10:26
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I definitely don't need solidarity fund money to buy a new laptop, thanks though Ms A! After a bit of searching about this one seems like a pretty solid deal: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lenovo-Thinkpad-T460-i5-6300U-2-4GHz-512GB-SSD-16GB-Ram-Windows-10-Laptop-HDMI-/153847380126 Any big red flags why I shouldn't get it at the price? Newish i5 (6300U), 16GB RAM, 512 GB SSD.
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Apr 8, 2020 10:45
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Josef bugman posted:Mate, i hate to tell you this but everything is an appeal to emotions. Trying to talk solely in graphs and charts and so on is also an appeal to the emotion of "You are smart because you understand this". See also Brexit, where remainers furiously pushed economic stats to the front and it was like water off a duck's back in the face of "your life is poo poo, let's shake things up!".
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Apr 8, 2020 10:45
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Humans aren't rational, we're hugely emotional animals. It's one of the positives of our species imo.
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Apr 8, 2020 10:51
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Azza Bamboo posted:Idpol is when people get to fight for how the groups they are a member of are regarded by others rather than having that decided for them. It's no wonder it pisses off right wingers and liberals: it deprives them of the sense of control and expertise respectively. ...IdPol is explicitly liberal in the common definition.
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Apr 8, 2020 10:52
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sebzilla posted:a new laptop maxxing out the ram, installing an ssd and doing a clean install can give laptops a whole new life if you haven't already done that
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Apr 8, 2020 10:52
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feedmegin posted:I did History at Oxford and in my time at least, lectures were strictly optional. I think I went to, like, two, both in my first year. You get your essay topic and reading list, you go to the library and get your books, you read them and write your essay, you go to the tutorial and read it out to your tutor, and then he eviscerates you for an hour or so. Lather, rinse and repeat for three years. You forgot the lifelong trauma! 
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Apr 8, 2020 10:55
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DesperateDan posted:maxxing out the ram, installing an ssd and doing a clean install can give laptops a whole new life if you haven't already done that Would also need to replace the screen and battery and charger and source an enter key which last time I checked a couple of years ago was out of stock from the replacement keys people. Basically at that point I might as well just drop a few hundred on a new machine and save myself the bother, right?
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Apr 8, 2020 11:00
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sebzilla posted:I definitely don't need solidarity fund money to buy a new laptop, thanks though Ms A! The only obvious thing I can see that would put me off is no dedicated graphics card. Depends what you want to do with it, but even a mediocre dedicated card is better than onboard graphics.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:02
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sebzilla posted:Would also need to replace the screen and battery and charger and source an enter key which last time I checked a couple of years ago was out of stock from the replacement keys people. Basically at that point I might as well just drop a few hundred on a new machine and save myself the bother, right? Yes.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:03
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forkboy84 posted:...IdPol is explicitly liberal in the common definition. Mmmm, if you mean how it is commonly used by some folk, sure, but it is a very mutable categorisation of things. Same way class analysis is often mutable in some instances.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:04
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sebzilla posted:I definitely don't need solidarity fund money to buy a new laptop, thanks though Ms A! Be aware that the pricing on that is quite deceptive, once you add the 512 SSD and the 16gb RAM it's actually £325, not the £199 it seemingly costs. Having said that, £325 seems pretty good for those specs. You won't be playing many games on it, but it's got a 1080p panel and will be nice and zippy with the SSD.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:12
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It's not liberal to organize as a group in a society where that group is marginalized as a result of shared conditions. Or to paraphrase Steve Biko, if a bunch of shits are going to come along and say "we're white and that makes us better than you, because you are a non-white" then it makes perfect sense to organize along the lines of "we're not non-white, we're black, and we deserve the right to make that distinction ourselves". As Biko himself points out, both the thesis of whiteness and the antithesis of blackness are socially constructed, and the correct synthesis is that dividing people by pigmentation is some bullshit, but it's not the people defending the antithesis who started that. Where it becomes liberal is when a bunch of people from the group defended by the thesis start using the existence of the dichotomy to shut down any class based analysis.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:14
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Azza Bamboo posted:Idpol is when people get to fight for how the groups they are a member of are regarded by others rather than having that decided for them. It's no wonder it pisses off right wingers and liberals: it deprives them of the sense of control and expertise respectively. Maybe I'm cynical but in recent years identity politics seems to have been latched on to by liberals as a way to cling on to support instead of actually offering solutions to the world's problems. It seems to be all about superficial actions and posturing that signal support and steering away from genuine attempts at change and restructuring society, even for the specific group they're claiming to support. When you don't agree with the right and want to see yourself as the good guy, but the policies the left proposes might inconvenience your comfortable bubble it's very useful to create artificial ground to claim and seem like you're doing something. It's used as much as a stick to beat the left as the right, even if there's no basis for the attacks like with Sanders in America where despite being the best chance for the marginalised to improve their quality of life you had a bunch of IDpol people directing women to Warren and African Americans to Biden. People are using it as a wedge to divide support on the left. Algol Star fucked around with this message at 11:18 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 11:15
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Doing another little look round for Starmer stuff, because why not, here's the Heil's 'takedown' of him in 2009:quote:Profile: The very political DPP with a past that he doesn't want you to know
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Apr 8, 2020 11:16
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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I've been thinking more about this. I found the age ranges interesting. I do wonder if there's a reluctance to even admit anyone over 70 into intensive care, instead just providing them means to... ..."manage their discomfort" at home. If so, that'd explain the age readings. Not necessarily that the 55 year olds are particularly vulnerable, but that they're of the age where triage isn't going to pull them out of the study.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:23
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Identity politics has been completely hollowed out by liberals and used as a bludgeon against the left almost exclusively, since it doesn't work at all against the right. The key part is that 'identity' can be given and taken away at will- look at the way liberals treat leftist women and minorities- or Biden's rape victims- and all of a sudden the protection and dignity liberals are supposed to afford them disappears in a flash, with the active aid of the media in framing it- what liberals took from 'don't punch down' was 'always frame things so you look like you're punching up'.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:24
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Josef bugman posted:Mmmm, if you mean how it is commonly used by some folk, sure, but it is a very mutable categorisation of things. Same way class analysis is often mutable in some instances. Can you give me some examples of words that are not used differently by different people?
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Apr 8, 2020 11:26
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Algol Star posted:Maybe I'm cynical but in recent years identity politics seems to have been latched on to by liberals as a way to cling on to support instead of actually offering solutions to the world's problems. It seems to be all about superficial actions and posturing that signal support and steering away from genuine attempts at change and restructuring society, even for the specific group they're claiming to support. When you don't agree with the right and want to see yourself as the good guy, but the policies the left proposes might inconvenience your comfortable bubble it's very useful to create artificial ground to claim and seem like you're doing something. It's used as much as a stick to beat the left as the right, even if there's no basis for the attacks like with Sanders in America where despite being the best chance for the marginalised to improve their quality of life you had a bunch of IDpol people directing women to Warren and African Americans to Biden. People are using it as a wedge to divide support on the left. One of those is group socialist and one is liberal lies. HJB posted:Doing another little look round for Starmer stuff, because why not, here's the Heil's 'takedown' of him in 2009:
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Apr 8, 2020 11:26
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radmonger posted:Can you give me some examples of words that are not used differently by different people? Cockwomble has an absolute value in a world of so many relatives. It is axiomatic.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:28
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HJB posted:Doing another little look round for Starmer stuff, because why not, here's the Heil's 'takedown' of him in 2009: This is weird. Obviously you don't expect the Mail to care about factual accuracy but "going to a fee paying school" was not a black mark in the New Labour days. Blair attended Fettes. Of the 22 people in the original Blair cabinet 10 were educated at independent schools. On the other hand, good on Keir for representing hunt sabs in his legal days.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:28
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lol cool https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1247685177465344002?s=20
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Apr 8, 2020 11:30
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Algol Star posted:Maybe I'm cynical but in recent years identity politics seems to have been latched on to by liberals as a way to cling on to support instead of actually offering solutions to the world's problems. It seems to be all about superficial actions and posturing that signal support and steering away from genuine attempts at change and restructuring society, even for the specific group they're claiming to support. When you don't agree with the right and want to see yourself as the good guy, but the policies the left proposes might inconvenience your comfortable bubble it's very useful to create artificial ground to claim and seem like you're doing something. It's used as much as a stick to beat the left as the right, even if there's no basis for the attacks like with Sanders in America where despite being the best chance for the marginalised to improve their quality of life you had a bunch of IDpol people directing women to Warren and African Americans to Biden. People are using it as a wedge to divide support on the left. I don't know, it sounds to me like every political movement has seen the value of self determination and is co opting it for their gains. Liberalism and Socialism are both going the route of saying "our proposed structure will provide you what you're asking for" and the right wing has said "if allowing groups self determination over how they are regarded is the way of doing things, we'll make sure that already powerful groups are replicating this for themselves." Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 11:31
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:See also Brexit, where remainers furiously pushed economic stats to the front and it was like water off a duck's back in the face of "your life is poo poo, let's shake things up!". The issue there was more that they misunderstood the class nature of Brexit voters, when it was not the case that they benefited from a stronger national economy. Say a landlord went to tenants, and promised them higher rents and easier evictions. They might judge them irrational when they rejected what to them were self-evidently good things.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:34
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I feel like there's an opportunity to get ahead of the game by setting up some kind of apocalyptic death cult in the UK. e: ah gently caress this is just basically the tories isn't it
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Apr 8, 2020 11:37
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radmonger posted:Can you give me some examples of words that are not used differently by different people? No? That's what I was arguing. Necrothatcher posted:I feel like there's an opportunity to get ahead of the game by setting up some kind of apocalyptic death cult in the UK. Dammit you stole the joke I was going to make! Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 11:39 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 11:37
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Is this the lube that will push "maybe some private healthcare is good" through the electorate's collective anus?
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Apr 8, 2020 11:40
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forkboy84 posted:Blair attended Fettes.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:40
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Guavanaut posted:It's not liberal to organize as a group in a society where that group is marginalized as a result of shared conditions. I really do wonder how different South Africa would be now if the police hadn't murdered Brah Biko in captivity...
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Apr 8, 2020 11:41
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There's so many "let's not bring politics into our brave boris being ill" melts populating my social media, but I wonder what will they say when politics are overrunning the hospitals, politics are backing up the cremation/funeral services, and they see politics being taken in body bags from their neighbours houses.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:45
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That's ludicrously optimistic for the USA, surely Not that that makes our situation any better (and I'm still convinced it's going to be much, much worse than 66,000 here)
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Apr 8, 2020 11:47
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Brendan Rodgers posted:There's so many "let's not bring politics into our brave boris being ill" melts populating my social media, but I wonder what will they say when politics are overrunning the hospitals, politics are backing up the cremation/funeral services, and they see politics being taken in body bags from their neighbours houses. Nothing, because fingers crossed they'll be also dead.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:49
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Guavanaut posted:I think there's a large difference between people saying "if people are going to exclude us on the basis of our pigmentation then we have the right to build structures that explicitly include us on that basis" and "you I'm not saying there aren't these issues or that marginalised groups shouldn't have their own organisation and structures. It's just there's a deliberate effort from liberals to co-opt this and focus entirely on superficial targets while distracting from real change and using this to attack agents of real change. This takes up almost the entirety of mainstream identity politics since the media loves it as it lets you feel good without actually changing or sacrificing anything. To be honest I wouldn't even have a problem with a lot of it if it wasn't used to distract from the real issues and used to attack genuine people while supporting establishment ideas.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:51
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Barry Foster posted:That's ludicrously optimistic for the USA, surely I think if it gets past the 50k number that was being bandied around it becomes anyones guess, because all of those pretty graphs that show how they get that number all have the hospitalisation rate staying *just* below the capacity of the NHS which I'm sure is rigorously researched and backed and not just wishful thinking and working backwards from that capacity. If we breach that, poo poo's going to go sideways really loving quickly.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:52
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I think if it gets past the 50k number that was being bandied around it becomes anyones guess, because all of those pretty graphs that show how they get that number all have the hospitalisation rate staying *just* below the capacity of the NHS which I'm sure is rigorously researched and backed and not just wishful thinking and working backwards from that capacity. If we breach that, poo poo's going to go sideways really loving quickly. Yeah. To be honest I'm still working from the old '60-80% infected, 7% mortality' thing and that's not a pleasant number to contemplate
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Apr 8, 2020 11:54
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Brendan Rodgers posted:There's so many "let's not bring politics into our brave boris being ill" melts populating my social media, but I wonder what will they say when politics are overrunning the hospitals, politics are backing up the cremation/funeral services, and they see politics being taken in body bags from their neighbours houses. They'll say "we have asked too much of the NHS. It's clear that their structures have disallowed their brave workers the resources and numbers needed to deal with this crisis. We need to release the burden on the NHS by providing an alternative to those who can afford it, and encouraging them to make use of this alternative." What's more, if this becomes policy, the media focus won't be on "that's bullshit" it'll be on "if I'm making use of this alternative, why should I pay national insurance?"
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Apr 8, 2020 11:55
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Those stats seem crazy.
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Apr 8, 2020 11:57
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