PeterCat posted:

WOWEE ZOWEE posted:

What did you do to SimonCat?

Jarmak posted:

Yes because African American voters have never been important in democratic primaries before.

quote:

You don't win a primary with only a third of the voters.

Jarmak posted:

Yes because African American voters have never been important in democratic primaries before.

You don't win a primary with only a third of the voters. If the three other candidates are all centrist and *surprise* their voters prefer a centrist candidate, of course they are going to coalesce as candidates drop out. Especially doesn't help that there's been a bunch of Bernie supporters like you being such toxic dickholes to anyone who dare prefer another candidate that Bernie couldn't even get the other progressive candidates voters when she dropped.

BigBallChunkyTime posted:

Was our loving idiot President talk about pardoning Joe Exotic?

Majorian posted:

It sure does, which is why it's appallingly stupid that Democratic leaders still insist that they have to cater to them. But God help you if you say the Dems need to reach out to independents.

Majorian posted:

I love how libs only care about black voters when they're old and as conservative as you. The overwhelming majority of younger black voters who supported Bernie may as well not exist to you.

Majorian posted:

...said Republican establishment figures throughout the 2016 GOP primary. Again, no one could have foreseen Obama stepping in and making Buttigieg and Klobuchar drop out right after SC.

e: weak hate av.

SirFozzie posted:

Hey. Folks who support Sanders and want to push the "rigged" narrative.. can you answer me some questions?

A) Sanders was winning early with 30-40% of the vote in a split field. However, when it got to a one-on-one matchup with Biden, Sanders STILL only got 30-40%. Are you saying that all the other candidates (Buttigieg , Warren, Biden, Bloomberg, ad infinitum) waved some magic wand and hypnotized all their supporters into being Biden voters? Or did Sanders not look to improve his position by building bridges? (I mean, AOC even said that she had to reach out to Sanders to say "Hey, do you want me to support you out there?")

B) Under Sanders's support, the only way he could have won the nomination is if all the moderates stayed in the race and divvied up the 60-70% that wasn't going to vote for Sanders. Are you saying that they all should have wasted money and their campaigns time when it was realized that "yeah, none of us can beat Sanders solo, but there's enough of us that if we coalesce behind one candidate, we win?" And because Biden was the one with "momentum" at the time, it became pretty easy to determine who to coalesce behind?

C) Look, I get that the allure of Sanders is that he makes no deals, and won't bend to others, but if you're not in the majority in the party, how do you grow? Politics is not hitting someone with a hammer and saying "Are you ready to vote for me yet?" (wham) "How about now?" (wham) "or now?" (that's why I haven't joined in on the moderate supporters saying "HA HA. NOW vote for Biden or go to hell", it's kinda a low blow/kicking folks while they're down. I hope and pray that they do vote (even if Reluctantly) for the D-nominee in November, but right now trying to make that argument is the old saying "Beatings will continue until morale improves"

SirFozzie posted:

That was because no one went to Cruz/Rubio et all soon enough to say "Look, this fucknugget is going to win, unless we get the not-crazy part of the party to coalesce behind one person (not to mention that they're all crazy to some degree, just not everybody says the quiet part loud like Trump does)

Again, did Obama "make" other candidates drop out? he's not the loving godfather here (as much as people would like to think so). Perhaps, just perhaps they looked at the situation and saw that dividing up the "moderate" voters 5-6 ways would hand someone less in tune with who they personally wanted to see win the nomination...

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Biden won black voters over 30.

Black voters under 30 were a tiny fraction of the electorate.

Alabama had the most overall black voters and black voters under 30 were 3% of the electorate.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/03/us/elections/exit-polls-alabama-primary.html?action=click&module=ELEX_results&region=Sentence

SirFozzie posted:

That was because no one went to Cruz/Rubio et all soon enough to say "Look, this fucknugget is going to win, unless we get the not-crazy part of the party to coalesce behind one person (not to mention that they're all crazy to some degree, just not everybody says the quiet part loud like Trump does)

Again, did Obama "make" other candidates drop out? he's not the loving godfather here (as much as people would like to think so). Perhaps, just perhaps they looked at the situation and saw that dividing up the "moderate" voters 5-6 ways would hand someone less in tune with who they personally wanted to see win the nomination...

Majorian posted:

Gee, I wonder if voter suppression had anything to do with that, and with young voter turnout in general.

SirFozzie posted:

C) Look, I get that the allure of Sanders is that he makes no deals, and won't bend to others, but if you're not in the majority in the party, how do you grow? Politics is not hitting someone with a hammer and saying "Are you ready to vote for me yet?" (wham) "How about now?" (wham) "or now?" (that's why I haven't joined in on the moderate supporters saying "HA HA. NOW vote for Biden or go to hell", it's kinda a low blow/kicking folks while they're down. I hope and pray that they do vote (even if Reluctantly) for the D-nominee in November, but right now trying to make that argument is the old saying "Beatings will continue until morale improves"

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

You were just chastising someone for ignoring the black electorate that "overwhelmingly" supported Bernie.

BigBallChunkyTime posted:

Was our loving idiot President talk about pardoning Joe Exotic?

SirFozzie posted:

You seem to think that "the party elders" do all the thinking for Kloubchar/Buttigieg etcetera).

They're not even top in the moderate category. So what makes them think that staying in will do them any good, and will it lead to a better outcome for what they believe? Or are you saying that they should've wasted their time (and their supporters time and money) to end up with a worse outcome (from their point of view)

Yelling "voter suppression" is not a magical panacea. Sanders appeals to 30-40% of the party. He doesn't appeal to 60-70% of the party. That's not voter suppression. That's basic math. And the math says that in both 2016 and 2020, voters preferred someone else.

SirFozzie posted:

That was because no one went to Cruz/Rubio et all soon enough to say "Look, this fucknugget is going to win, unless we get the not-crazy part of the party to coalesce behind one person (not to mention that they're all crazy to some degree, just not everybody says the quiet part loud like Trump does)

Again, did Obama "make" other candidates drop out? he's not the loving godfather here (as much as people would like to think so). Perhaps, just perhaps they looked at the situation and saw that dividing up the "moderate" voters 5-6 ways would hand someone less in tune with who they personally wanted to see win the nomination...

SirFozzie posted:

You seem to think that "the party elders" do all the thinking for Kloubchar/Buttigieg etcetera).

They're not even top in the moderate category. So what makes them think that staying in will do them any good, and will it lead to a better outcome for what they believe? Or are you saying that they should've wasted their time (and their supporters time and money) to end up with a worse outcome (from their point of view)

Yelling "voter suppression" is not a magical panacea. Sanders appeals to 30-40% of the party. He doesn't appeal to 60-70% of the party. That's not voter suppression. That's basic math. And the math says that in both 2016 and 2020, voters preferred someone else.

Endorph posted:

biden's already lost a lot of bernie voters just by mere virtue of his existence.

Endorph posted:

biden's already lost a lot of bernie voters just by mere virtue of his existence. people thought they might finally have a way out of the crippling financial debt they were under, it actually seemed like bernie might do it, and then it was taken away from them in literally a night. by a rapist. you can make any logical arguments you want, nobody even cares if they're true or not. if trump won based on emotion in 2016, not any real examination of facts, and if biden won mostly based on emotion in this primary, not any real examination of facts (peep all the people who support m4a but voted biden), than doesn't it follow that bernie voters will feel burned by biden just based on emotion, and not any real examination of facts?

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

pick one. did the party elders demand their inferiors stand down or suffer the consequences, as you claim the republicans should have in 2016, or did the lesser candidates just simultaneously schedule flights to a Biden rally in Houston on a whim.

these two positions cannot be reconciled.

SirFozzie posted:

Alright Lessail, I can agree to that. So why didn't Sanders increase his share of the votes once it was one on one?

(I do think electability was an issue, as well as the health scare he had around that time)

SirFozzie posted:

"Well. I was going to go for the "moderate" part of the vote, but now that's not a winning strategy, because I'm not the one in the lead, even amongst the moderates, so do I throw my support behind another moderate or the person I don't agree with"

Again, you're arguing that candidates should stay in the contest even though it's obvious that they cannot win. Rational actions here.

SirFozzie posted:

Failing to convince a majority of a party's voters that he's the person for the job is not "being taken away from them in literally a night".

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

More than 85% of Democrats say that they are fine with either Bernie or Biden.

People who refuse to vote for either of them are around ~10% for each.

There's not a lot of Bernie or Biden hate among primary voters.

SirFozzie posted:

Failing to convince a majority of a party's voters that he's the person for the job is not "being taken away from them in literally a night".

Endorph posted:

What part of 'this isn't about any kind of facts or logic, it's about the narrative people have in their heads' isn't clicking.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

More than 85% of Democrats say that they are fine with either Bernie or Biden.

People who refuse to vote for either of them are around ~10% for each.

There's not a lot of Bernie or Biden hate among primary voters.

sit on my Facebook posted:

Like, I thought we all collectively understood going in to this thing that the DNC was gonna put every possible thumb on any scale they could get their hands on to keep Bernie from winning. None of this is surprising, nor is it mutually exclusive with a clear-eyed assessment of things the Bernie campaign did well and things they did no-so-well. I don't understand the point of this discussion unless anybody is affirmatively claiming either A) the DNC did not in fact try to make Bernie lose however possible, or B) Bernie's campaign actually did nothing wrong and only lost because of rat-fuckery

I don't see anybody actually asserting either of those things

Majorian posted:

That's because no one has gone negative on Biden in a concerted way yet. But Trump's going to, and it's going to hurt.

SirFozzie posted:

Look, I get it. While I'm not buried under a mountain of crippling college debt, I have a personal stake in this election. I'm in my 40's, have completely lovely health (so much so that if I don't get disability in June, I have two options. Sponge off my family for the rest of my life, or find a way out.)). I have friends whose fundamental right to exist are under assault (The gains that LGBTQ folks have made is under threat with Trump packing the judiciary). The women's right to choose (if RBG finally succumbs and Trump gets another four years, do you think we'll have a functioning right to abortion access post Trump?)

So I want Trump out. I NEED Trump out. I will vote for Biden, just like I would vote for Sanders. Or Warren, Or Buttigieg. Or... well anyone that's better than Trump."

Biden may be a 15 on a 0-100 scale of comparing to Sanders, but Trump is a -9Trillion on that scale'

edit: You know, saying I'm thinking of killing myself if I don't get disability is.. kinda alarming.

Majorian posted:

LT2012 is pretty close to option A there actually. Quelle surprise.

SirFozzie posted:

Look, I get it. While I'm not buried under a mountain of crippling college debt, I have a personal stake in this election. I'm in my 40's, have completely lovely health (so much so that if I don't get disability in June, I have two options. Sponge off my family for the rest of my life, or find a way out.)). I have friends whose fundamental right to exist are under assault (The gains that LGBTQ folks have made is under threat with Trump packing the judiciary). The women's right to choose (if RBG finally succumbs and Trump gets another four years, do you think we'll have a functioning right to abortion access post Trump?)

So I want Trump out. I NEED Trump out. I will vote for Biden, just like I would vote for Sanders. Or Warren, Or Buttigieg. Or... well anyone that's better than Trump."

Biden may be a 15 on a 0-100 scale of comparing to Sanders, but Trump is a -9Trillion on that scale'

edit: You know, saying I'm thinking of killing myself if I don't get disability is.. kinda alarming.