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another consequence of having a huge non-permanent resident labour pool doing the crappier jobs is that a very large chunk of the working class in a country is effectively disenfranchised and the whole thing becomes a system of hyperexploitation where the majority working class is squeezed on both ends and becomes even less politically relevant, causing greater exploitation of the workers and further driving a wedge between majority resident workers and migrant labour it's extremely hosed up and hard to deal with
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Apr 10, 2020 14:50
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1. What are the chances of this weakening the eu “free movement further” to the point you could see mass deportations or Eastern European migrant populations in Western European countries? I am thinking about how some of those countries have like over a third of their under fourty population now living outside of their countries. (Hungary I believe as a larger percentage of its on the book population living outside it then Venezuela did till recently)
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Apr 10, 2020 14:58
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so long as the EU endures in a recognisable form, free movement of labour will remain. at the moment it's suspended due to covid-19, but i expect that the powers that be are going to try as hard as they can to get it back up and running quickly. if they can't, we're heading for interesting times
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Apr 10, 2020 15:04
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:Crows beak is by far my favorite podcast fan trying to use this post to warp whistle over to where Crowsbeak goes all in on defining /stupidpol/
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Apr 10, 2020 15:16
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Crowsbeak posted:1. What are the chances of this weakening the eu “free movement further” to the point you could see mass deportations or Eastern European migrant populations in Western European countries? I am thinking about how some of those countries have like over a third of their under fourty population now living outside of their countries. (Hungary I believe as a larger percentage of its on the book population living outside it then Venezuela did till recently) Rich Europe won't deport Poor Europeans because it needs them to exploit. Poor Europe might throw up more barriers against Not Europe, or even try to prevent their own people leaving, but preventing bankers in Germany having access to Romanian au pairs to abuse would go against the whole European project.
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Apr 10, 2020 15:28
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I did enjoy the "globalism" dog-whistle because it was literal evidence that a broken clock is right twice a day.
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Apr 10, 2020 15:32
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Poor Europe gets a lot of remittances and can afford much lower levels of public spending with large chunks of their population abroad. this is one reason that e.g. poland has gone so hard to the right
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Apr 10, 2020 15:33
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I don't have any academic background in this stuff, so forgive me if i'm naive, but isn't free labor movement between the americas what you guys were arguing before would weaken capital and help create more class conscious workers + reduce wage gaps? and now well off eu countries are being pointed at as exploiting the free movement of cheap labor? I'm not sure how to square these concepts.
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Apr 10, 2020 15:34
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The way the word globalism is used is often clearly just capitalism but they can't admit that.
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Apr 10, 2020 15:34
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Hooplah posted:I don't have any academic background in this stuff, so forgive me if i'm naive, but isn't free labor movement between the americas what you guys were arguing before would weaken capital and help create more class conscious workers + reduce wage gaps? and now well off eu countries are being pointed at as exploiting the free movement of cheap labor? I'm not sure how to square these concepts. i suspect most of the former posters are americans and most of the latter are europeans
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Apr 10, 2020 15:35
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V. Illych L. posted:i suspect most of the former posters are americans and most of the latter are europeans i figured that, I'm mostly hoping to get some americans to explain why open borders wouldn't lead to the same situation that's happening in the eu now
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Apr 10, 2020 15:38
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Hooplah posted:i figured that, I'm mostly hoping to get some americans to explain why open borders wouldn't lead to the same situation that's happening in the eu now probably the response will be a combination of 1) american workers have little to lose so the effect is much less pronounced, 2) many working-class whites are lost to racial identity politics and 3) simple political necessity remember, a big chunk of the actually existing american working class is naturalised immigrant - hispanics look a lot like they're going to be the base for the american left going forward, and they care a lot about liberalising migration policy. this, combined with the need to win internal discussions in the democratic party, means that casting skepticism towards labour migration as racist or national chauvinist is very convenient
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Apr 10, 2020 15:44
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Hooplah posted:i figured that, I'm mostly hoping to get some americans to explain why open borders wouldn't lead to the same situation that's happening in the eu now The real key here isn't in the openness of the borders--although that is very important!--but in the applicable labor law. Iirc the EU mandates that guest workers get the same minimum wage and such as they would in their home countries ie. a Polish citizen working in Germany gets the same minimum wage in Germany that they would have gotten in Poland, instead of the German minimum wage. The open borders argument relies on the labor law being universally applicable to all workers within the country regardless of country of origin or citizenship status. For example, an immigrant worker from Honduras working in the US would win the same wage as a US worker.
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Apr 10, 2020 15:49
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sanders was gambling that he could turn trump's blatant pro-boss attitudes into a wedge in the republican idpol/business coalition. sanders' path to a general election win was always through winnig blue-collar whites in states like pennsylvania, which are effectively unreachable by the present democratic strategy. to get there he had to court more reliable democratic voter groups, and young people and hispanic voters were the ones most likely to see their common cause with these people - having also been pissed on by previous democratic administrations, they are nonetheless mostly registered democrats in important states. everyone on the american left is going to have to run that gauntlet, and since the level of discourse regarding these things is rather heated a fudge has to be made. it's also more comfortable to be able to dismiss migration policy as an issue, because it again really doesn't gel well with the cosmopolitan internationalism of a lot of the younger left, represented heavily itt
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Apr 10, 2020 15:53
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Thanks, those explanations help. the bit about eu labor law was the missing piece for me i guess. i wasn't aware that's how it works. that's pretty hosed up tbh
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Apr 10, 2020 16:37
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THS posted:i think you don’t automatically take the position of most people because the working class also isn’t ok with communism or ending the death penalty or a lot of other leftist ideas. you don’t poll people and then decide that’s your ethics. all you are doing is using “working class people hate immigrants” as a way to provide cover for your own prejudices, of which i can only imagine go pretty deep Finicums Wake posted:there are good criticisms to be made of the way that some liberals use academic concepts from race and gender and sexuality researchers. often they're using watered-down and simplistic caricatures of the original concepts, deploying them as mere buzzwords rather than analytical tools. and sometimes, more cynically, they can be used as a cudgel against those that disagree with them or threaten their class positions. but it's often better to engage these people on their own terrain and show them how they're just misusing these ideas than do whatever the hell crowsbeak is doing Halloween Jack has issued a correction as of 17:11 on Apr 10, 2020 |
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Apr 10, 2020 17:04
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whatever man this poo poo's boring who cares
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Apr 10, 2020 17:09
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Hooplah posted:and now well off eu countries are being pointed at as exploiting the free movement of cheap labor? I'm not sure how to square these concepts. the EU is a very particular case, in the sense you have free transit of labor but the weaker economies do not have the same capacities of action and autonomy that, for example, Mexico does. without delving into a in-depth deconstruction of those mechanisms, the basics of that problem are: 1) there is a common currency but a schizophrenic monetary policy for each member of the EU that is not within their ability to manage (which neoliberalism loves); 2) government policy becomes seriously hampered by that; 3) the consequent structure automatically turns these weaker members into effectively being siphoned of resources towards the main economies through labor and capital, as a country like, say, Greece or Spain are hampered in their effective ability as governments to do things like making French or German interests comply with theirs --- but tbqf, I kinda dislike going through economic essentialism because it can easily end in a liberal rabbit hole and loving misses the point of a fundamental principle of socialism, humanity. "These people are here", and as comrades, we should do right by them.
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Apr 10, 2020 17:15
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galaxy brain: US courting of educated immigrants provokes a brain drain from developing countries that often invest large amounts of public money into their education. When the US attracts these immigrants it is an act of imperial plunder. This policy also often leads to the creation of conservative diaspora communities in the US that go on to support, from abroad, neoliberal politicians in their country of origin. The legal US immigration system is a tool for imperialism in its own right. the only immigration the left should support is illegal immigration
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Apr 10, 2020 17:23
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Atrocious Joe posted:the only immigration the left should support is illegal immigration hell yeah. this tacks with what i hear most psl members say
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Apr 10, 2020 17:33
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illegal immigration also creates an underclass of basically rights-less workers who are incredibly exploitable and entirely disenfranchised, though, which is a little unfortunate
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Apr 10, 2020 18:25
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up until the united states actually started enforcing the mexican-american border like 40 years ago the vast majority of illegal immigrants would just be seasonal workers. the entire "crises" is an artificial one created by selective border enforcement.
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Apr 10, 2020 18:28
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Atrocious Joe posted:galaxy brain: US courting of educated immigrants provokes a brain drain from developing countries that often invest large amounts of public money into their education. When the US attracts these immigrants it is an act of imperial plunder. This policy also often leads to the creation of conservative diaspora communities in the US that go on to support, from abroad, neoliberal politicians in their country of origin. The legal US immigration system is a tool for imperialism in its own right. I mean. Actually H1Bb does screw poorer countries and also usually sees people who are never given the chance at citizenship live here for maybe four years and sent back when the CL irk no longer needs them. Also screws local workers as it acts to drive down wages. Also. Lol. It isn’t just white people who are not exactly fond of open borders. Seriously cool that Jacinda Arden shows you can take power though.
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Apr 10, 2020 18:56
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:whatever man this poo poo's boring who cares
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Apr 10, 2020 18:57
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Grevling posted:The way the word globalism is used is often clearly just capitalism but they can't admit that. of course, because capitalism for the reactionaries is signified as liberalism (for them) and wealth (for them); when it starts biting their hand they get angry and need to form a term for what they Don't Like
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Apr 10, 2020 19:00
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As an anarchist I see power and heriarchy and plan a is how to gently caress with it, plan b is how to kill it, and plan c is a replacement time-line.
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Apr 10, 2020 19:13
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T-man posted:As an anarchist I Who cares
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Apr 10, 2020 19:36
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T-man posted:As an anarchist the good news is this is treatable
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Apr 10, 2020 20:14
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V. Illych L. posted:Poor Europe gets a lot of remittances and can afford much lower levels of public spending with large chunks of their population abroad. this is one reason that e.g. poland has gone so hard to the right in the case of poland, being sandwiched between much richer neighbors probably exacerbates inequality issues, it's a very common scenario here in south europe richer europeans coming and opening up show and having tax benefits to do so which locals dont have access to
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Apr 10, 2020 20:19
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Did Virgil Texas have a falling out with the rest of the Chapos or something?
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Apr 10, 2020 22:10
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Nah, we're just over analysing throwaway comments whilst we wait for some more Dasha drama to yell about. Virgil will be back. Possibly with catgirl ears and giant tits.
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Apr 10, 2020 22:16
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Often Abbreviated posted:Virgil will be back. Possibly with catgirl ears and giant tits. Ahh Adam Friedland's next sexual conquest
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Apr 10, 2020 22:20
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Raccooon posted:Did Virgil Texas have a falling out with the rest of the Chapos or something? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iSSoHOslXE&t=2448s sounds like it
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Apr 10, 2020 22:28
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I really like how Matt was able pick up on Lucas' reference to a 1930s serial
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Apr 10, 2020 22:40
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https://twitter.com/punished_harvey/status/1248398916472598528
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Apr 11, 2020 00:04
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i don't know star wars very well so the guest hayley was a useful source of info. but all of them talking over each other and her made these episodes unlistenable at certain points tbh. like she'd go to say something interesting and immediately the other 3 would just start babbling excitedly. bit rude.
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Apr 11, 2020 00:36
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T-man posted:As an anarchist I see power and heriarchy and plan a is how to gently caress with it, plan b is how to kill it, and plan c is a replacement time-line. so what's the plan for heavy industrial processes such as the ones required to create estrodiol on a wide scale
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Apr 11, 2020 00:50
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gh0stpinballa posted:i don't know star wars very well so the guest hayley was a useful source of info. but all of them talking over each other and her made these episodes unlistenable at certain points tbh. like she'd go to say something interesting and immediately the other 3 would just start babbling excitedly. bit rude. Matt owes us a deep dive on Lucasfilm's connection to MKUltra for interrupting her when she brought it up
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Apr 11, 2020 00:53
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T-man posted:As an anarchist I see power and heriarchy and plan a is how to gently caress with it, plan b is how to kill it, and plan c is a replacement time-line. i prefer the posts that are just you yelling at people honeslty
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Apr 11, 2020 00:57
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Grevling posted:The way the word globalism is used is often clearly just capitalism but they can't admit that. there's a pretty big difference between keynesian capitalism with capital controls and a lot of domestic industrial production within the developed countries, and the neoliberal globalizes capitalism that followed. yea they're both forms of capitalism, but flattening both periods into the same thing doesnt make sense to me
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Apr 11, 2020 00:57
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