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OwlFancier posted:If both are fundamental material needs (which I would argue they are) and you don't want the british government to forever be in favour of loving you and your kindred over via them (which is a good thing to want) then I would suggest that the rationale is the same? If you're going to be personally hurt by their actions that's an even better reason to want to avert them? It's you who loses out if they aren't stopped. It's not going to stop or be averted though. Not until Labour 100% give unquestioning support to the annihiliation of the Palestinians. I think there'll be another purge within the next 12 months of anyone supporting Palestine. Anyway, I'm not saying anymore about it.
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Apr 11, 2020 23:05
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The right aren't going to stop pushing that, no, which is all the more reason not to just give up control to them now and forever.
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Apr 11, 2020 23:07
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:It's not going to stop or be averted though. Not until Labour 100% give unquestioning support to the annihiliation of the Palestinians. I think there'll be another purge within the next 12 months of anyone supporting Palestine. If I get purged I'm going to accuse them of being antisemitic
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Apr 11, 2020 23:08
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OwlFancier posted:If both are fundamental material needs (which I would argue they are) and you don't want the british government to forever be in favour of loving you and your kindred over via them (which is a good thing to want) then I would suggest that the rationale is the same? If you're going to be personally hurt by their actions that's an even better reason to want to avert them? It's you who loses out if they aren't stopped. You're absolutely right in an ultra-rational way but that isn't how any human actually operates. Emotional response to events is normal and understandable so trying to impose ultra-rationalism on someone that is having a normal and understandable experience is just bizarre, it's inhuman, it's weird and it's something left-liberals online and offline do far too eagerly. Like the 'how could a working class person vote tory!' meme, often presented in a derisive classist way, is dumb the answer is very obviously because the tories presented an emotionally appealling message, we complain about media bias amplifying that message or that the tories were literally loving lying to the poor bastard and yeah that's true who cares it worked Like there are a ton of Labour members that voted for Corbyn twice but just voted for Starmer, they aren't evil or stupid for voting for Starmer and they certainly aren't actually right-wing, they were just traumatised by the massive loss Labour suffered and not immune to the half-decade of the most intense propoganda in British history they just experienced, we can hate them for not being ultra-rational or we can get why they did it and move on from there. You are absolutely objectively correct, if forums user Jaeluni Asjil, to use the example, engaged with the Labour Party that would lead to a meaningful but still microscopic chance of some good happening in the world, but given the disrespect, potential evil and moral cowardice the Labour Party just displayed to them you don't understand why they would righteously and understandably tell it to get hosed?
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Apr 11, 2020 23:24
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And if you are self aware of your emotive response and find that acting on it is the only way you are able to diffuse it, then that is also a material need, and I am not going to hold it against you for doing that, though I am going to keep suggesting that perhaps once the immediate response fades you might want to reassess and see if you can act in a way that actually helps you in the long term if the immediate emotional need is no longer as pressing. But that's not the same as feeling the emotive response and then trying to rationalize acting on it after the fact. And that's what a lot of people do because we are not encouraged to treat emotive responses as being "real needs" to the point that acting on them for their own sake is justifiable. We instead are (often unconsciously) encouraged to rationalize them. And that behaviour can be dangerous for us in the long term because the rationalization sticks around a long time after the emotional need does, and it creates new emotional needs too, in that we don't want to think of ourselves as being irrational, so even if it isn't very good reasoning and is actively harming us, we still hang onto it because the alternative is poking holes in our understanding of ourselves as rational beings who are not ruled by our emotions. Ironically itself a position fuelled primarily by the emotional need not to feel irrational. So as long as I'm able I'm going to counsel people against rationalizing their emotional needs. Treat them for what they are, needs, yes, but not ones that need to stay around forever. Be angry, act in whatever way you need to to deal with that anger (though try not to harm people who don't deserve it in the process, and that includes yourself) and then be open to looking at it again once the emotional response dulls a bit. I wouldn't characterise this as inhuman either, nor would I actually say it's a liberal thing, the liberal thing is to rationalize your own emotional needs and then pretend like you're rationally owning everyone else online for purely rational reasons rather than because it gets your dick hard, it's complete failure to separate emotional and rational thought, just as strongly as conservatives do because obviously there's very little daylight between the two camps. What I would say this is, is a necessary survival technique, if you have a lot of strong emotional responses you need to separate them from your actual reasoned understanding of the world because if you don't you'll end up dead or writing for the daily mail. You must be hurt by things, you must act to diffuse that emotional trauma, but you don't have to pretend that the decision you made in order to do that is the long term most advantageous one to you. You don't have to stake your pride in that decision or be afraid to reverse it later on, or to forego it entirely if you go through this process a lot and can already sort of see where you want to end up anyway. Emotional needs are real needs but they still conflict with our other needs a lot of the time, and there are ways to deal with that that don't involve picking one over the other. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 23:47
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Darth Walrus posted:Reee? Really now? you know if they hadn't kept on repeatedly using the word "cuck" despite several people telling them to stop i'd think this might be an honest mistake maybe possibly but uhh
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Apr 11, 2020 23:53
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I might also suggest that the persistent use of language Vitamin P knows annoys people ITT is also a form of emotional need fulfilment and does not necessarily constitute a political position in and of itself. Other than the idea that language is not content which I don't really agree with but is certainly a position people have. See also: why I swear a lot. And also why I yell at people sometimes. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 23:55
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OwlFancier posted:I might also suggest that the persistent use of language Vitamin P knows annoys people ITT is also a form of emotional need fulfilment and does not necessarily constitute a political position in and of itself. Other than the idea that language is not content which I don't really agree with but is certainly a position people have. ultimately it matters less what vitamin P actually believes and more how it effects a space when harmful language is allowed to pass unchallenged. i'm not saying we shouldn't look at the root causes of behaviours but it's also good imo to not foster a culture where people can see posters going around saying racist/ableist 4chan poo poo and getting away with it
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Apr 12, 2020 00:05
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That being the general reason why I don't agree that language is not content, and also why I talk differently ITT than I would in other situations. Though I would also say the thread has changed how I speak generally and even think which is nice. I get why people think the right to offend is necessary for leftism and I agree, but I also think the idea that offense is not something you can aim very well is important too. Insults and callousness are directed at anyone they apply to even if you don't want them to be. Which is one of the particular things I owe the thread for an understanding of. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Apr 12, 2020 |
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Apr 12, 2020 00:06
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Take a break from all this sheer rage and check out this banging fucken tune https://youtu.be/VFqhJyvly1g
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Apr 12, 2020 00:10
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Coohoolin posted:Take a break from all this sheer rage and check out this banging fucken tune Ok that one I actually like 
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Apr 12, 2020 00:15
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OwlFancier posted:I might also suggest that the persistent use of language Vitamin P knows annoys people ITT is also a form of emotional need fulfilment and does not necessarily constitute a political position in and of itself. Other than the idea that language is not content which I don't really agree with but is certainly a position people have. I'd argue it's that Online is a legitimate subculture that evolves and that language organically permeates more than it's me fulfilling an emotional need or some highbrow poo poo, but I do consciously know that the most obnoxious, authoritarian shitlib posters on these forums do unironically believe in the contagion theory of political discourse and that poo poo is cancer. OwlFancier posted:And if you are self aware of your emotive response and find that acting on it is the only way you are able to diffuse it, then that is also a material need, and I am not going to hold it against you for doing that, though I am going to keep suggesting that perhaps once the immediate response fades you might want to reassess You've made my point better than I was able to, once the the trauma of the Corbyn defeat has faded we need to reassess and I think engagement in the Labour Party should not be dismissed even though the idea feels poo poo right now.
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Apr 12, 2020 00:27
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I'd probably dispute that "online" is a coherent subculture in that it's pretty fractured. Lots of major sites have their own lingo and use of it is somewhat specific to them. I also don't think that the extent to which it disperses into more general use is entirely separate from the politics of those sites either. Like I could use the 4chan lingo because I understand most of it but I don't specifically because I would be communicating something by doing that. For the same reason I don't use my posh voice a lot of the time, especially not when I'm talking to normal people I respect, because that also communicates something I don't want to, most of the time. What language you speak is itself a statement, though it's sometimes unfair when your own language is a statement you don't want to make. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Apr 12, 2020 |
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Apr 12, 2020 00:40
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look i'd like to make the slightest effort to stop using language that mocks disabled people but it's actually an important part of my legitimate culture
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Apr 12, 2020 00:45
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Angepain posted:look i'd like to make the slightest effort to stop using language that mocks disabled people but it's actually an important part of my legitimate culture Some of my best friends are ableist words
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Apr 12, 2020 00:50
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Vitamin P posted:I'd argue it's that Online is a legitimate subculture that evolves and that language organically permeates more than it's me fulfilling an emotional need or some highbrow poo poo, but I do consciously know that the most obnoxious, authoritarian shitlib posters on these forums do unironically believe in the contagion theory of political discourse and that poo poo is cancer. I've got autistic relatives, you obnoxious prick. Cut it out.
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Apr 12, 2020 00:51
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Angepain posted:look i'd like to make the slightest effort to stop using language that mocks disabled people but it's actually an important part of my legitimate culture That's actually true though. There's absolutely several online cultures that form a massive part of some people's self identity and that is literally an important part of one of them. It's a bad part of it (among a lot of other bad things) but it's definitely real.
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Apr 12, 2020 00:53
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Vitamin P posted:I'd argue it's that Online is a legitimate subculture that evolves and that language organically permeates more than it's me fulfilling an emotional need or some highbrow poo poo, but I do consciously know that the most obnoxious, authoritarian shitlib posters on these forums do unironically believe in the contagion theory of political discourse and that poo poo is cancer.
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Apr 12, 2020 00:54
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Also, sheez: https://twitter.com/allisonpearson/status/1248952159825268736?s=21
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Apr 12, 2020 00:54
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pumpinglemma posted:"Reeeeee" and "cucked" aren't "online culture", they're specifically 4chan poo poo. The first one is a slur against autistic people, and the second one is used exclusively by the alt-right. "Cucked" has spread pretty far. Wouldn't be surprised if there was reference to what a cucked year it's been in the Queen's Speech
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Apr 12, 2020 00:56
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Nice to see the telegraph getting on board with my "kill all the old people because they're tories" strategy, not the comrades I would have expected but I'll not turn them down.
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Apr 12, 2020 00:57
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I thought reee was just a pig noise 
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Apr 12, 2020 01:00
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pumpinglemma posted:"Reeeeee" and "cucked" aren't "online culture", they're specifically 4chan poo poo. The first one is a slur against autistic people, and the second one is used exclusively by the alt-right. Absolute bullshit, there were lots of people on this very forum that correctly noticed the name Change UK was funny as gently caress stop lying, and if 'reee' is a specific reference to autistic people then it's news to me I've only known it as animalistic frustration noise reference.
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Apr 12, 2020 01:05
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Vitamin P posted:if 'reee' is a specific reference to autistic people then it's news to me in fact it is! consider yourself now better informed. we all learn things every day on this wonderful world we live in
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Apr 12, 2020 01:07
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I've heard variously that it's either screaming frogs or people with mental difficulties. Given the source though I'm inclined to believe it's usually used to mean the latter. Which of course doesn't mean that's what you mean by it but that does mean it's what people are going to think you mean by it. As you say, language is organic and unfortunately the organic use of that is often really lovely. I really genuinely would avoid using it for that reason. Even if I still think the cuck thing is as funny as when it first took off and there was the whole counter-response where people started asking why all these horrible incels screaming about beta males were really hot and bothered about the notion of cuckoldry. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Apr 12, 2020 |
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Apr 12, 2020 01:07
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Also on the CUK front, while I'm not entirely sure i'd defend all of the specific jokes made about Change UK, there is some difference between noting that an organisation made up of supposed brilliant communicators has accidentally named themselves after a terrible word and casually using that word to describe a distantly related politician in a different context
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Apr 12, 2020 01:11
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Vitamin P posted:Absolute bullshit, there were lots of people on this very forum that correctly noticed the name Change UK was funny as gently caress stop lying, and if 'reee' is a specific reference to autistic people then it's news to me I've only known it as animalistic frustration noise reference. Angepain posted:Also on the CUK front, while I'm not entirely sure i'd defend all of the specific jokes made about Change UK, there is some difference between noting that an organisation made up of supposed brilliant communicators has accidentally named themselves after a terrible word and casually using that word to describe a distantly related politician in a different context
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Apr 12, 2020 01:14
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crispix posted:I thought reee was just a pig noise Ditto I had to google it. Also I thought 'cuck' was a reference to the Change UK party!
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Apr 12, 2020 01:14
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I feel old. Can we not go back to like... wally and wazzock and that nobody says bloody or blooming anymore, either. it's all just wall to wall fucks 
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Apr 12, 2020 01:14
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The best bit was the actual cuckold kink people were very nonplussed by the whole thing but I absolutely credit the explosion of the word online as pushing that kink way more into the mainstream. Which I'm sure continues to infuriate the people who started it for a variety of reasons
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Apr 12, 2020 01:16
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OwlFancier posted:There's absolutely several online cultures that form a massive part of some people's self identity ... 
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Apr 12, 2020 01:21
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Darth Walrus posted:Also, sheez: ohhh so all the sneering at millennials was actually because they weren't strong and rational enough to demand the purge of the older generations now I get it
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Apr 12, 2020 01:26
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That's not a bad thing! Or rather it's not... the worst thing? For some people it's a better alternative than what's available otherwise, and it can even produce very positive outcomes, I certainly think it's been helpful to the development of the LGBT movement and identities because the anonymity is something that's very useful there. It's bad I guess in that people can be pushed into online spaces because they don't have anywhere else to go but that's a problem with society, not with the existence of the alternative space. Even the bad things it produces I would be more inclined to treat as a problem of society at large, online fascists are a product and mirror of hosed up attitudes already prevalent in society.
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Apr 12, 2020 01:27
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crispix posted:I thought reee was just a pig noise
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Apr 12, 2020 01:27
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crispix posted:
The best kind of gently caress imo
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Apr 12, 2020 01:30
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My three-year-old niece's favourite expletive phrase is 'Flippin Nora!'
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Apr 12, 2020 01:38
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I was upset to learn that Gordon Bennet wasn't a cricket man that swore on television as my granny once told me. Apparently it's from the same basic stuff as cor blimey and bloody and a load of other swears, just mild blasphemy that's been mangled through a few hundred years of english pronunciation.
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Apr 12, 2020 01:39
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OwlFancier posted:I was upset to learn that Gordon Bennet wasn't a cricket man that swore on television as my granny once told me. gordon bennet was a drunk toff newspaper publisher who spunked shitloads of money on pr stunts and founded the first yank polo club. There's a street in paris named after him so you say it if you're just too polite a 19th century cockney to even contract the lords name in vain
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Apr 12, 2020 02:24
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goddamnedtwisto posted:https://twitter.com/RaynerSkyNews/status/1249053545837604864 All of this is enraging, but by far the worst slur that has been thrown at us according to this is calling Corbyn and his supporters "trots". Absolutely loving disgraceful.
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Apr 12, 2020 05:54
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would love if these journalists would put this much effort in to another report. You know, that the tories were supposed to publish 6 months ago...
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Apr 12, 2020 06:02
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