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I've only seen through episode 4 and judging by this thread (I've avoided spoilers) I need to catch up post-haste!
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Apr 12, 2020 06:23
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lily is going to prove the relational interpretation correct 
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Apr 12, 2020 10:27
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ghostwritingduck posted:Lily is a very active character who makes bold choices compared to the average person. "I just witnessed two murders. Gonna calmly walk past the still warm corpse of my now-dead-ex-boyfriend, go around a big pool of bright red blood on the floor, quietly sit on the sofa and have a nap".  I can understand if they were trying to portray Lily as being in shock, but if that was the case she should have shown at least some physiological signs like rapid breathing or dizziness or anxiousness or...something. Or she could have freaked out. Note: this is my only actual nitpick of the episode; on the whole I'm really enjoying the series. Binary Logic fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Apr 12, 2020 |
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Apr 12, 2020 14:38
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Binary Logic posted:"I just witnessed two murders. Gonna calmly walk past the still warm corpse of my now-dead-ex-boyfriend, go around a big pool of bright red blood on the floor, quietly sit on the sofa and have a nap". Let me help you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_position "Sometimes, when a person has suffered extreme physical or psychological trauma (including massive stress), they will assume the fetal position or a similar position in which the back is curved forward, the legs are brought up as tightly against the abdomen as possible, the head is bowed as close to the abdomen as possible, and the arms are wrapped around the head to prevent further trauma. This position provides better protection to the brain and vital organs than simply lying spread out on the ground, so it is clear as to why it is an instinctual reaction to extreme stress or trauma when the brain is no longer able to cope with the surrounding environment, and in essence "shuts down" temporarily." Binary Logic posted:I can understand if they were trying to portray Lily as being in shock, but if that was the case she should have shown at least some physiological signs like rapid breathing or dizziness or anxiousness or...something. Or she could have freaked out. You can't actually observe dizziness, rapid heart rate or hyperventilation in a person just by looking at them in most cases. Someone completely shutting down is a sign of having suffered enormous stress. This isn't so much for your enjoyment of the show as a life tip so you don't miss the signs of extreme stress in someone close to you.
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Apr 12, 2020 16:32
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Thanks for the tip but Lily didn't curl up in fetal position, her feet stayed on the floor, she absolutely did NOT do "the legs are brought up as tightly against the abdomen as possible", her arms are not wrapped around head; she just kind of plopped onto her side. This is how the scene ends: Let me help you out: Dizziness and hyperventilation are both observable. Binary Logic fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Apr 12, 2020 |
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Apr 12, 2020 17:10
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What a silly argument.
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Apr 12, 2020 17:14
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priznat posted:What a silly argument. 
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Apr 12, 2020 17:20
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Oh man. Too late by a week or so. At least there are good shows like this one out there to ease the pain .
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Apr 12, 2020 17:25
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Field Mousepad posted:Knowing what happens in the future makes you really boring and indifferent apparently It is April 15th and I have concluded a brief derail on Watchmen's Dr. Manhattan.
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Apr 12, 2020 18:19
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No tviv thread is safe from people who don't enjoy a show and instead of not watching it continue on and decide they must inform people how much they dislike said show. I will never understand that, just turn off the TV and walk away
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Apr 12, 2020 20:06
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At the end of the day: cause, and effect. I hope you understand what I'm saying. This is forgiveness, this is absolution. You made no decision to betray us. You could only have done what you did.
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Apr 13, 2020 02:48
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The TV show, 'Devs', is terrific, one of the best. The only thing I have disliked so far is Lily and the cucked ex going to visit nick offerman in the middle of the night. It just felt a bit too unrealistic for the characters to all act as they did, not call the cops, or whatever. I get it's because they've seen it happen on the future etch-a-sketch but it still annoyed me. Also thought Lily should rage out and hit someone when she got told her ex was murdered. Other than, brilliant, I didn't think the semi-fetal position thing was a problem, I have selective TV autism.
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Apr 13, 2020 06:51
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Forest should play frisbee with everyone who is about to die.
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Apr 13, 2020 06:59
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chinigz posted:The only thing I have disliked so far is Lily and the cucked ex going to visit nick offerman in the middle of the night. Heh, that was actually one of my favorite scenes in the series and I thought it all felt perfectly believable for the characters and their personalities. Imo it felt right in line with how all of the characters just bounce around between wanting to fight, succumb, give up, get along...
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Apr 13, 2020 09:17
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chinigz posted:The TV show, 'Devs', is terrific, one of the best. Lily already called the police and they committed her based on the testimony of Amaya’s psychiatrist. Calling the police a second time wouldn’t help. KGB Pete later confirms that the police can’t really navigate massive conspiracies. Lily didn’t flip out about hearing that her boyfriend was murdered because she already knew. Instead we saw a combination of relief of not being gas lighted and cautious curiosity to WTF.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:33
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ghostwritingduck posted:Lily already called the police and they committed her based on the testimony of Amaya’s psychiatrist. Calling the police a second time wouldn’t help. KGB Pete later confirms that the police can’t really navigate massive conspiracies. I agree, more that she was knowingly going to the people she thought killed her boyfriend and just turned up and had a chat, rather than running or something. But I get it
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Apr 13, 2020 12:05
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pahuyuth posted:I've only seen through episode 4 and judging by this thread (I've avoided spoilers) I need to catch up post-haste!  it's going to break your head. Sorry. gently caress Me. That 1 second into the future bit ... 
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Apr 13, 2020 16:14
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OTC posted:Think of Apollo's curse on Cassandra. Knowing the future, can it be changed? So far, the answer is no. But how hard did Forest and Katie try? They certainly haven't attempted anything close to full disclosure. Even as Lily fulfills the prophecy given to her, the question remains open. Speaking of which I love the notion that the machine seems to be working 100% as intended using Many Worlds. The problem of variation doesn't seem to actually factor into what they're watching in any meaningful way. Katie is viewing her own past and there's nothing to indicate that it's straying from what actually occurred, which suggests to me that the system is accurately projecting events from their reality instead of a parallel one, and all that was required was for the system to acknowledge that the Many Worlds exist. But Forrest never truly cared about the accuracy of the projection, he cared about proving Determinism, which has apparently failed him. Worlds exist where his wife and daughter are alive, and he's just not living in one of them.
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Apr 14, 2020 15:00
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I hadn't realized that the actor who plays Lyndon is female, and the guy who plays stewart is 70 years old, that is more than I thought.
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Apr 14, 2020 19:30
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The point of determinism is that the future literally cannot be changed. Knowing what's going to happen doesn't give you the option to do something different. In that scenario, the future plays out the way it's supposed to because you knew what was going to happen. It works like the coin flip example. If you know with absolute certainty the mass of the coin, the force of the flip, the air pressure and wind and temperature and so on, you can predict exactly how the coin will land. The same thing goes for all your decisions, except all of the variables are differences in brain chemistry. I think the whole thing with Lyndon on the dam is supposed to illustrate that. Katie knew what was going to happen, and acting on that knowledge is what caused him to fall. But that was already pre-ordained, for lack of a better word, when she originally watched it happen in the first place. Knowing the future seems to give you an option to do something different, but your knowledge of the future was already a factor in the outcome before you even knew it. The future is still a straight line you can't deviate from.
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Apr 14, 2020 19:31
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Oasx posted:I hadn't realized that the actor who plays Lyndon is female, and the guy who plays stewart is 70 years old, that is more than I thought. I didn’t realize that about Lyndon, wild. Also Stewart actor guy is going to be in the new Dune flick, possibly Thufir Hawat, which owns.
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Apr 14, 2020 20:09
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I just assumed Lyndon was trans the whole time.
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Apr 14, 2020 20:20
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PopetasticPerson posted:The point of determinism is that the future literally cannot be changed. Knowing what's going to happen doesn't give you the option to do something different. In that scenario, the future plays out the way it's supposed to because you knew what was going to happen. It works like the coin flip example. If you know with absolute certainty the mass of the coin, the force of the flip, the air pressure and wind and temperature and so on, you can predict exactly how the coin will land. The same thing goes for all your decisions, except all of the variables are differences in brain chemistry.
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Apr 14, 2020 20:22
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My brother didn't realize that Lyndon was trans either and I sort of laughed at him for it, but I guess he's not alone. Tbh I think it screwed his perception of the character up because he didn't like that one of the DEVS team was what he perceived to be a 13 year old boy, which he found to be unbelievable. I was like "Uh, the actress is like 24" and he was like "wait, what?" FTR this is Lyndon irl  I like how much this show plays with androgyny.
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Apr 14, 2020 20:26
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From what I read Lyndon is not trans, but it's a male character that just happens to be played by a female actor.
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Apr 14, 2020 20:37
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Lyndon isn't trans, I don't think. It's just an actress playing the role of a boy. Here's an interview with the actress about it: https://collider.com/devs-interview-cailee-spaeny-lyndon-gender/ EDIT: Here's an excerpt from an interview with Alex Garland where he confirms Lyndon is cisgendered and weirdly almost gets a little offended at the idea of it being otherwise: quote:When I mention that, in Devs, actress Cailee Spaeny plays Lyndon, a male engineering prodigy who, in the latest episode, is fired when he tests out Hugh Everett's many-worlds theory on their algorithm, which makes it more functional but also adds another variable -- the multiverse -- that enrages Forest, Garland interrupts me to explain. "It's not a trans character, and it never was, and I never toyed with the idea of it being a trans character," he says, noting that he simply decided to cast a young woman to play a cisgendered boy. "In some respects, it's as simple as that. Now, of course I'm aware that there are broader debates about this kind of thing, but the existence of a debate doesn't mean I have to participate in the debate." (Trans performer Janet Mock does appear in a recurring role.) EDIT2: Actually, upon re-reading it, I think it's just a poorly structured paragraph. On first read, it sounds like Garland completely changes the subject just to interject that Lyndon is NOT trans. Upon second reading, it becomes clear that the writer WAS bringing up the subject of the female actor playing the male character, then veered off onto two lines of backstory before snapping back to the subject at hand. OldSenileGuy fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Apr 14, 2020 |
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Apr 14, 2020 20:38
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Strange Matter posted:So is Katie lying when she says she believes that Many Worlds is the correct interpretation? Either way the Devs system seems to prove that Many Worlds is the truth of their reality anyway, so what Katie says to Lyndon is at least partially true; his consciousness continues to persist in the universes where he survives the experiment, or in the universes where he chooses not to climb over the rail at all, but those all deviate from the universe that the Devs system is simulating, because it is somehow *both* deterministic and multiversal. So as far as this iteration of Katie is concerned, Lyndon had no other outcome but death. Many worlds is strictly deterministic because it isn't random, and it doesn't literally mean "everything can happen". It's possible there are zero universes in which a Lyndon survives.
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Apr 14, 2020 20:41
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Ah, ok. Either way the show doesn't address it, so i just assumed. As a male character she does have the appearance of being really young. Although they say in the show that Lyndon is 19.
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Apr 14, 2020 20:44
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Ham posted:Many worlds is strictly deterministic because it isn't random, and it doesn't literally mean "everything can happen". It's possible there are zero universes in which a Lyndon survives.
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Apr 14, 2020 21:26
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I think the show has kind of dodged the issue of "could you change the thing you do in 10 seconds if you knew it was gonna happen?" It's gotten so bold about that that I'm starting to wonder if the machine is actually forcing stuff to happen rather than simply predicting it. Like, when everyone views their projection 1 second in the future, they seem kind of hypnotized by the machine.
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Apr 14, 2020 23:40
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OldSenileGuy posted:EDIT: Here's an excerpt from an interview with Alex Garland where he confirms Lyndon is cisgendered and weirdly almost gets a little offended at the idea of it being otherwise: probably because everything about this looks like they cast a cis lady to play a trans man, then when they realized 'oh poo poo people are going to be mad at us for trans erasure' had to hastily clarify that the character was never trans. and, as that piece notes, it's not exactly Garland's first time being extremely careless about casting diversity why you wouldn't just change the gender -- which is never referred to in the show -- of the character to solve this problem is a bit of a mystery to me, since their explanation seems rather forced eke out fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Apr 14, 2020 |
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Apr 14, 2020 23:46
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eke out posted:probably because everything about this looks like they cast a cis lady to play a trans man, then when they realized 'oh poo poo people are going to be mad at us for trans erasure' had to hastily clarify that the character was never trans I think Lyndon being a young woman may have complicated her relationship with Stewart for audiences. This way Stewart comes across as a caring mentor and not a possible creep. I think it’s very cool that the director cast a young woman as Lyndon. As a viewer, I briefly wondered about Lydon’s gender and then moved on to enjoy the character.
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Apr 14, 2020 23:56
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Martman posted:I think the show has kind of dodged the issue of "could you change the thing you do in 10 seconds if you knew it was gonna happen?" It's gotten so bold about that that I'm starting to wonder if the machine is actually forcing stuff to happen rather than simply predicting it. Stewart suggested the possibility that they were in a simulation during the 1 second projection moment. I’m wondering if that’s the answer, or just one characters considering the possibility.
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Apr 14, 2020 23:58
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Yeah I just thought Lyndon was a prepubescent (perhaps late bloomer 13/14year old) child prodigy type and as portrayed it fit with that completely imo.
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Apr 15, 2020 00:00
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or it might just be like how voice actors for young boys are usually women, since a woman can look and sound more like a prepubescent boy but still be able to act, as I imagine a good child actor for a role like this would be hard to find. Lilly is chaos (Lucifer) bringing free will to the deterministic (God, Order, the machine) creation and allowing Adam & Eve to escape their slavery to their ordained destinies. Stewart was an Angel at the gates of the garden. ghostwritingduck posted:Stewart suggested the possibility that they were in a simulation during the 1 second projection moment. I’m wondering if that’s the answer, or just one characters considering the possibility. yeah that one is cool idea a well. they built the box containing the universe by their predictions that created the box that created the universe based on the contain box's predictions, so inadvertently making a deterministic universe. that was a great and unsettling scene. CodeJanitor fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Apr 15, 2020 |
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Apr 15, 2020 00:04
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CodeJanitor posted:or it might just be like how voice actors for young boys are usually women, since a woman can look and sound more like a prepubescent boy but still be able to act, as I imagine a good child actor for a role like this would be hard to find. Yeah, this exactly! Also it would suck if they got a boy to play Lyndon and then his voice changes halfway through production 
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Apr 15, 2020 00:07
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priznat posted:Yeah, this exactly! Also it would suck if they got a boy to play Lyndon and then his voice changes halfway through production Most of us agree it’s a great show why shouldn’t it go on to be syndicated like The Simpsons? 25 more seasons!
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Apr 15, 2020 00:10
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ghostwritingduck posted:Stewart suggested the possibility that they were in a simulation during the 1 second projection moment. I’m wondering if that’s the answer, or just one characters considering the possibility.
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Apr 15, 2020 00:13
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Martman posted:I think the show has kind of dodged the issue of "could you change the thing you do in 10 seconds if you knew it was gonna happen?" It's gotten so bold about that that I'm starting to wonder if the machine is actually forcing stuff to happen rather than simply predicting it.
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Apr 15, 2020 00:14
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BaldDwarfOnPCP posted:Most of us agree it’s a great show why shouldn’t it go on to be syndicated like The Simpsons? And a movie!
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Apr 15, 2020 00:15
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