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I am finally getting round to building my mini what I bought ages ago and I have a question. What are these tzaangor shields for? I can't see any rules or stats for them? Are they an AoS thing? I'm not going to use them as my bordmen will be wielding all manor of sharp things and will never see a tabletop match, so just need to look cool.
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Apr 15, 2020 22:47
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PeterWeller posted:Nope. No precedent for a fifth chaos god in Warhammer 40,000. Lol, look at this kid.
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Apr 15, 2020 22:57
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Female Space Marines exist, their names are Jayne, and Gabs
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Apr 15, 2020 23:05
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Lol, look at this kid. There is no precedent for a 5th Chaos God and if you don't like it you can take it up with John Wagner and Alan Grant's lawyers 
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Apr 15, 2020 23:06
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Kitchner posted:AoS lore is pretty dumb in my view which is why I don't play it, but it's OK if other people find it cool. Oh man. Lord_Hambrose posted:Lol, look at this kid. Corrode posted:There is no precedent for a 5th Chaos God and if you don't like it you can take it up with John Wagner and Alan Grant's lawyers Touche.
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Apr 15, 2020 23:27
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Kitchner posted:Sorry buddy, still boring and really doesn't bother me that saying to someone that something that very clearly doesn't fit into the background doesn't fit into the background.  This lady is the Empress of Mankind. Her name is Athi Hollzenstein and she's a Rogue Trader and secessionist who's carved out her own little territory in the Dark Imperium. Her logic is that since we can't see the Astronomicon any more the Emperor must be dead and that she, as the coolest human being in the universe, is the natural choice to be the new Emperor.    These are some Custodian Guard. They're a bunch of ogryns, genestealers, cyborgs and daemons she's painted gold and armed with the most comically expensive arms and armour she can come up with. There's full on outright Heresy at every stage of this bullshit.  She's even bound a greater daemon to serve as a Primarch once she heard weird astropath rumours about the Emperor's son being returned and assumed they must be prophecies about her!    She's surrounded by hereteks, outright genestealer infiltrators, necrons, and a lunatic anything-goes branch of the Adeptus Mechanicus who have declared independence from Mars and are playing around with abominable intelligence. They've upped the specs on those Castellian robots so that they fight like Custodian Dreadnoughts. They need this, they think! They're in a scary tiny pocket of space cut off from everyone else with all the horrors of the Old Night out there and, they reason, special permission from the Empress of All Mankind. They've become one of those weird little human cultures that the Emperor conquered during the Great Crusade. Horus Rising starts with Horus taking down a planet loaded with weird technology, a discount off-brand invisible Custodian Guard, and some idiot who called himself the Emperor of Mankind. This army is everything wrong with the lore but it fits into the lore anyway because the lore is full of weird, fascinating little exceptions and dark corners, especially now that the Imperium has been cut in half and everyone in the Imperium Nihilus has been left to fend for themselves. If this lady decided that she wanted some female space marines who the gently caress in the lore could stop her from getting some female space marines? If her heretek Admech couldn't do it, the necrons she's partnered with could, or the Zoat, or if they couldn't she could just talk to one of the greater demons she's bound and they could make it happen. And they did!  They're Sons of Horus because her AdMech guys had some Sons of Horus gene seed lying around in a vault since the Heresy and the AdMech canonically never throws anything out, and because I wanted to paint green. The point that I'm making isn't that this character isn't a special snowflake. She is, she's a literary invention there to justify whatever cool conversion I think of doing this week - I love weird 40K and Blanchitsu stuff. The point I'm making is that within the lore there's nothing that contradicts this character at all. There's precedent at every step of the way. Lunatics seceding from the Imperium? My friend, that was the plot of Ian Watson's Space Marine. The AdMech having bullshit secrets locked up in vaults and being one lab accident away from outright tech heresy? Every book ever written. Humanity working with xenos and chaos in a seemingly peaceful and stable society? The Interex was a part of the Heresy. Some Idiot declaring themselves the Emperor and defying anyone to step up and stop them? That's the plot of Horus Rising. The point I'm making is that within the lore, this person and all her insane bullshit can be justified because the lore is full of insane bullshit. And if someone like this could exist somewhere, anywhere!, in the galaxy, then any one of the components of her could exist in isolation. We know that there are great powers and intellects out there with mastery of the genetic form. We know that the space marine gene seed is not immune to change or mutation - not only can they be mutated by chaos in Soul Drinkers, they can be altered by science with the Primaris Project, but in Belesarius Cawl: The Great Work, genestealer-infected Space Marines became canon. We know that there are people who will defy all doctrine because of lunacy or conviction. Given the established factors in play maintaining that female space marines don't fit into the lore is kind of you misunderstanding the lore. The lore is batshit. I love weird 40K and ya'll should too. Thanqol fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Apr 15, 2020 |
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Apr 15, 2020 23:39
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Also that's all old content, have some new content, my Primaris Iron Warriors:       This stupid loving bumbletank looked terrible right until the second I put the final sepia glaze over it and then it looked amazing and I wanted to do an entire Marine armoured column.
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Apr 16, 2020 00:05
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DOC THUNDEEEEEEER
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Apr 16, 2020 00:25
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Cross post from the painting thread because it's not canon compliant in any way.ThoraxTheImpaler posted:
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Apr 16, 2020 00:28
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Kitchner posted:I think the furthest I've ever gone is like when a friend was going to pain all her Eldar the same colour Congratulations, you shattered your record over the last two pages!
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Apr 16, 2020 00:30
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ThoraxTheImpaler posted:Cross post from the painting thread because it's not canon compliant in any way. This looks great! I think, though, you might be better served by a darker brown on the leather cloak. It's a very warm colour which clashes with the rest of your model, try cooling and desaturating it (a wash or two of gryph charger grey contrast is amazing for this)
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Apr 16, 2020 00:31
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Thanqol posted:This looks great! I think, though, you might be better served by a darker brown on the leather cloak. It's a very warm colour which clashes with the rest of your model, try cooling and desaturating it (a wash or two of gryph charger grey contrast is amazing for this) Thanks for the tip. I burn through gryph charger at an insane rate because I slap that poo poo on everything.
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Apr 16, 2020 00:35
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Thanqol posted:I love weird 40K and ya'll should too. Cool, and those are some cool models. However, to make my point, your Rogue Trader believes herself to be the Emperor. She isn't actually, and objectively, the reincarnation of the Emperor. If you had said "She's literally the Emperor, not just she thinks she is or claims she is, she is literally the Emperor of mankind" then I would say that silly and doesn't fit into the background. That doesn't need to bother you, you can still and should still do whatever you think is cool, I just don't think it fits into the background and my opinion is that you should change that if you are trying to fit it into the background Hell, the only bit from all your stuff there that I am confused about at all is how she has dressed up "genestealers" in armour, unless you meant hybrids in which case that makes more sense. I never once said people shouldn't come up with their own backstories or make cool kit bashes they like etc. I said there's clearly a limit to what "fits" with the established 40K lore. It's pretty broad and a lot can fit in it, but there is some stuff that doesn't. I'm not talking about painting the armour a different colour. It's like when someone on reddit asked for feedback on their never before heard of alien human empire in their Rogue Trader RPG, which was ruled by 3 Men of Iron and was "ran like the USSR" and consisted of about 300 worlds and had genuine FTL drives that didn't need the warp. I just said "Hey, I don't think these things work for these reasons", they don't have to listen to me and it's not a game I'm playing in so ultimately I don't care, but if someone wants my opinion that's what it is. Unless someone's position is "no literally anything someone writes in a backstory is fine and its bad to say you disagree or don't like it even if it's completely and objectively lore breaking (e.g. my chapter are the blood angels lead by chapter master Robute Guilleman with grey hunter squads and Necron warriors)" then fundamentally they agree with what I said, it's just about where you draw the line of "actually i think this fits in" vs "this doesn't fit in" which is mostly opinion. It's just the usual toxic bores who try to twist that into me saying what people can and can't do with their models because they got annoyed and start swearing and insulting me when I suggested it's OK to tell people to do the bare minimum to paint models before you enter a paid tournament. PinheadSlim posted:Congratulations, you shattered your record over the last two pages! Nah. I don't think saying "Hey, there's a limit to what you can justify as fitting in with the lore but if you don't give a poo poo about that then go nuts" is really that extreme, neither is saying "It's right that paid tournaments should insist people paint 3 colours on their models and base them". It just gets the same crowd of frothing at the mouth stereotypical angry nerds wound up so they try to make out I'm doing something I'm not. The reason I don't give a poo poo is because I don't need angry internet nerds to figure out whether or not what I say to people pushes them out of the hobby, because I've introduced probably 4 new people to the hobby in the last 12 months, talked them through their options for painting (both in terms of "lore" and "non-lore" options), how to play the game etc, and they all seem to be having fun. I'm also not the one throwing a tantrum the moment someone I don't like disagrees with my opinion, which in my experience is the exact type of behaviour which creates a stereotype about the hobby and scares people away. Kitchner fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 16, 2020 00:50
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notaspy posted:What are these tzaangor shields for? I can't see any rules or stats for them? Are they an AoS thing? Yeah they count for something in AoS. In 40k you just get a choice between autopistols and chainswords (which come in a separate upgrade kit) and "tzaangor blades" which are basically everything in the box. So your motley collection of birdgoats wielding an assortment of melee weapons is actually rules legal!
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Apr 16, 2020 00:52
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Kitchner posted:I don't give a poo poo Also Kitchner posted:Let me just slap almost 2200 words down in less than 2 pages to try and justify myself to "angry internet nerds."
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Apr 16, 2020 00:59
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MODS PLEASE this is just pedantic bull poo poo and gate keeping bullshit. This has gone beyond lore discussions.
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Apr 16, 2020 01:05
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Kitchner posted:angry internet nerds lmao he's not kidding, 2300 words at 12,000 characters 
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Apr 16, 2020 01:11
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Kitchner posted:Cool, and those are some cool models. Okay, so you see this quote of yours: quote:Apart from it isn't, because it took Cawl 10,000 years and all the resources of the mechanics he controls to create a new type of space marine, and you're suggesting a space marine chapter just did it it on the fly without any real resources. This is why people are coming at you. Female space marines are easily a grey area in the setting, easily justifiable within the logic of what we know and what people are capable of. You made the case that this grey area is exactly the same as crossing a fundamental setting truth regarding the nature of the warp and the chaos gods. This makes it seem like you're taking an absolutist approach, where anything even slightly outside the norm is regarded with the same contempt as anything dramatically outside the norm. This may not be what you were attempting to do but it's what you conveyed. 40K has a couple of hard lines regarding its tone and cosmology, and it's possible to be factually incorrect, but there are also immense grey areas. You came across as treating people's individual ideas and preferences as with the same contempt as you'd treat a Naturo crossover fanfic and it got a negative response.
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Apr 16, 2020 01:21
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Space marine have big bitey teeth and maybe sharp nails or a bone knife in his arm but no vagina ever
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Apr 16, 2020 01:32
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I like when the space people shoot each other
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Apr 16, 2020 01:50
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Hurr hurr marines go Fo tha Emporah.
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Apr 16, 2020 02:04
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nooooo you cant just let a genestealer wear clothing it goes against the lore!! hurr hurr jeans stealer
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Apr 16, 2020 02:07
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JBP posted:Space marine have big bitey teeth and maybe sharp nails or a bone knife in his arm but no vagina ever Don't forget that one chapter that literally just kept bursting into flames.
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Apr 16, 2020 02:37
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SteelMentor posted:For 3 years he constantly claimed he was "struggling to pick just one army!" Well, I am.
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Apr 16, 2020 03:19
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ThoraxTheImpaler posted:Don't forget that one chapter that literally just kept bursting into flames. my favorite chapter is The Lamenters because their gimmick is gently caress The Lamenters
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Apr 16, 2020 03:51
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I have a lot of fondness for the "obscure but in canon" chapters like the Lamenters and the Flame Falcons (the guys who kept bursting into flame). Back when I was a teenager the very first Marine I painted was an old beaky in Fire Hawks colors with the mushroom cloud chapter symbol. I was pretty proud of the little guy, and quite annoyed when the Hawks all vanished and (presumably) became the Legion of the Damned. Fortunately I was too poor to have more than a handful of marines back then so I only had the one Fire Hawk. I did use him in some games of Space Hulk, using the White Dwarf rules for regular power armor guys, which was pretty neat. Ah, nostalgia.
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Apr 16, 2020 05:08
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Corrode posted:There is no precedent for a 5th Chaos God and if you don't like it you can take it up with John Wagner and Alan Grant's lawyers I thought there were a bunch of chaos gods but gw official lore only talked about the big 4 and kept the rest unknown because being vague is good? As for lore bs I always consider the official stuff to be loose set of guidelines for painting armys and making narrative games for people to make their on poo poo off of like d&d. So yeah go lady space mens!
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Apr 16, 2020 06:41
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I've always wanted a Tyranid to eat something that gives the hivemind a severe case of becoming space skaven
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Apr 16, 2020 06:58
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I've never liked any faction in 40k as much as I love skaven, so I'd give anything for that. We'd sooner get the 2 missing primarchs though.  At least the vortex storyline in Total Warhammer 2 gives us skaven in space anyway.
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Apr 16, 2020 07:09
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Broke: Arguing about whether or not there should be female space marines Woke: Arguing about whether or not there should be female Custodes Marin Karin posted:Painting a single Custodes head is still more effort than the people who just read 1d4chan articles and say they're huge 40k fans For what it's worth (be it an alternate take or grounds for my immediate banning), the majority of my 40k knowledge comes from spending an unhealthy amount of time on 1d4chan. That's how I know about a lot of the weird, obscure stuff, like the Ork Submarine.  It's the background of the game and the universe through a more casual, sardonic lens, which makes for a more entertaining read. It's the same reason I like TTS; 40K is arguably best when you view it as a comedy.
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Apr 16, 2020 08:22
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the moose posted:I thought there were a bunch of chaos gods but gw official lore only talked about the big 4 and kept the rest unknown because being vague is good? Oh for real there's loads of them, Chaos Gods are just reflections in the warp anyway so if you want a God of Weird Gatekeeping or God of Tetchiness or whatever go hog wild. Malal is just funny because he was a canon 5th god from the old WFRP setting, but GW hosed up and forgot to make sure they actually owned the IP, and when they found out they probably didn't they memory holed him.
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Apr 16, 2020 08:25
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MinistryofLard posted:Yeah they count for something in AoS. In 40k you just get a choice between autopistols and chainswords (which come in a separate upgrade kit) and "tzaangor blades" which are basically everything in the box. Wicked, ty. However, even though they might be rules legal they won't be lore legal as they are all bordwomen.
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Apr 16, 2020 08:39
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I'd actually love it if gw went ok nerds a space marine needs to be a man for reasons but here is the new female custodian she has 6 attacks S5 T5 2+ 3++ and a thunder hammer enjoy.
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Apr 16, 2020 09:05
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Thanqol posted:Okay, so you see this quote of yours: Personally I don't really think it is a grey area because, unless someone has read something I haven't, I don't think I've seen any case in the last 10,000 years of in universe history written by GW and its authors where someone has successfully made a female space marine. Like I said my preference would be to say anyone can be turned into a space marine and space marines are non-binary, but I don't think GW has written that either. If you disagree it's a grey area and think it's totally within the realms of established lore, we could either have an interesting and adult discussion of gender and marines and the lore, or we can just disagree. There will be people who write their own justifications or do things that you think aren't a grey area and they will think it is a grey area. That's life. I only brought it up as an example and made several attempts to say "fine, you disagree female marines aren't in universe, but you agree there is some stuff that is right?" because there are people here with chips on their shoulders from last time when I suggested it's OK for tournaments to ask people to put some paint on their models. It was an attempt to not get bogged down arguing over specifics but I failed to ignore them so it didn't work. My point was even if we don't agree where the line is drawn on specific cases, most people agree there is a line where something no longer actually fits into the established backstory of the setting. That's it.
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Apr 16, 2020 09:20
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JBP posted:I'd actually love it if gw went ok nerds a space marine needs to be a man for reasons but here is the new female custodian she has 6 attacks S5 T5 2+ 3++ and a thunder hammer enjoy. I much prefer the idea of saying space marines are non-binary and all space stations have three toilets, male, female, and space marine and wait for the outrage.
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Apr 16, 2020 09:23
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DOC THUNDER DOC THUNDER DOC THUNDER
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Apr 16, 2020 09:28
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I've been playing this game since 2nd edition and the one thing that remains constant is arguments about female space marines.
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Apr 16, 2020 09:29
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If you're looking for something to read there's a new Black Library Humble Bundle: https://www.humblebundle.com/books/warhammer-40000-series-starters-black-library-books
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Apr 16, 2020 10:11
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Mouse Business posted:I've been playing this game since 2nd edition and the one thing that remains constant is arguments about female space marines. It's weird to experience a few years of social progress because the only people who wanted female Marines 10 years ago were horned-up weirdos greenstuffing massive tits on them and now it's a fairly mainstream view in some places that female Marines are a good thing you should be in favour of
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Apr 16, 2020 10:11
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Totally. Unprecedented. Technically a 3rd party expansion back in the old RT days, but still. https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/6p2bm9/til_that_female_space_marines_were_actually_canon/
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Apr 16, 2020 10:33
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