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Sampatrick posted:i agree with these critiques but also they apply equally to literally every single paradox game They all apply but they do not apply equally.
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Apr 15, 2020 21:47
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ilitarist posted:No it doesn't. Naw, I totally remember when they went Steam-only early on in its lifecycle and pissed off a whooooole bunch of people.
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Apr 15, 2020 21:48
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KOGAHAZAN!! posted:Naw, I totally remember when they went Steam-only early on in its lifecycle and pissed off a whooooole bunch of people. 
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Apr 15, 2020 21:51
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Chomp8645 posted:They all apply but they do not apply equally. which ones do they not apply to? the current crop of paradox games all suffer from massive slow downs as the game goes on and they all have awful ai. i guess ui isnt ugly in every paradox game but i dont think stellaris ui is worse than in any other game.
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Apr 15, 2020 21:55
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They released things on steam before they went Steam-only.
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Apr 15, 2020 21:56
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Eu4s and CK2s late games arent bad, though the games are usually over by the time you get there. Hoi4s can get kinda bad and stellaris is just garbage late game.
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Apr 15, 2020 21:57
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I am literally the anti-goon since I adore Imperator and Stellaris, thinks CK2 is solidly in "eh fun for a while" territory and can't stand Victoria 2 or EU4  . I haven't tried HoI4 yet so no opinion there.
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Apr 15, 2020 21:58
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:They released things on steam before they went Steam-only. why would that affect anything though? was that between ck2 and eu4? i think the ck2 player count is lower than eu4, stellaris and hoi4 because people like those games better and not really for any other reason. really queer Christmas posted:Eu4s and CK2s late games arent bad, though the games are usually over by the time you get there. honestly hoi4s is the worst for me, and eu4 gets really bad as well if youre suitably big. dunno about ck2.
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Apr 15, 2020 22:00
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it was...November 2013 I think that they stopped updating the gamersgate version and effectively went steam only on CK2 they gave everyone with the gamersgate version free steam keys for the game and any DLCs they had but there was still some pretty insane teeth gnashing at the time
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Apr 15, 2020 22:01
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Stux posted:why would that affect anything though? was that between ck2 and eu4? i think the ck2 player count is lower than eu4, stellaris and hoi4 because people like those games better and not really for any other reason.
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Apr 15, 2020 22:01
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Steam cannot run on my circa-1993 CPU in my Windows 95 computer, why is Paradox leaving a vital and large consumer base like me behind???????
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Apr 15, 2020 22:05
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I like how it in about 10 years the rage conditioned changed from "game is only on Steam" to "game is NOT on Steam" Gabe painted the map his color alright.
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Apr 15, 2020 22:08
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Stux posted:why would that affect anything though? was that between ck2 and eu4? i think the ck2 player count is lower than eu4, stellaris and hoi4 because people like those games better and not really for any other reason. it gets pretty bad for me
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Apr 15, 2020 22:09
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Red Bones posted:They're never going to add more complex, meaningful internal management because EU4 isn't a game about running a country, it's a war game with a lot of flavour text that alludes to running a country. I don't even know if they'd lean more towards internal management in EU5, as Imperator on release was very clearly further iterating on a lot of EU4's features, and on release it was also very much a war game rather than a management/war hybrid. This is like entirely Johan’s fault since he’s gone on the record of saying that EU is not a series about that while ignoring the fact that some of the most popular mods for both EU3 and 4 were all about internal development to the point of being byzantine and incredibly cludgy with mechanics because the modders have to jury-rig everything to make up for it. So instead we have a game that seeks to model with increasing accuracy the exact geopolitical and geographic borders of November 11 1444 where the second you hit unpause every ruler immediately wants to fight WWII-style wars of annihilation with its enemies because it’s being designed and tested by people who have gotten too good at it like some sort of hard-mode romhack. I, uh, have some feelings about where the EU series has gone.
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Apr 15, 2020 22:29
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Ck2 hits this weird uncanny valley where I spend too much time fiddling with characters to get into the grand strategy and the character fiddle isn't in depth enough for me to dig into it as an RPG. I get that lots of people like it though, so it's good that it's there for them to enjoy. HOI4 seems to do the best job of providing a fun combat challenge with decent pacing in a manageable scope. I've done a campaign recently and it was quite solid. Stellaris is very cool due to being in space, it also has a lot of leftover baggage from development that still hasn't really been worked through years after release. Nice video to see those things play out over time.
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Apr 15, 2020 22:32
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Soup du Jour posted:So instead we have a game that seeks to model with increasing accuracy the exact geopolitical and geographic borders of November 11 1444 where the second you hit unpause every ruler immediately wants to fight WWII-style wars of annihilation with its enemies lol
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Apr 15, 2020 22:32
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I have like 30~ hours in the Steam version of CK2 despite the fact i've played it far more than that before it went Steam only, if that counts for anything. 2.0.2 was the last update for the Gamersgate version, iirc.
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Apr 15, 2020 22:40
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Westminster System posted:2.0.2 was the last update for the Gamersgate version, iirc. lmao oh yeah there was a whole era of games being available through that unfortunately named thing
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Apr 15, 2020 22:41
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I mean, its still running - its the place I own Darkest Hour, the best HoI2, through.
Westminster System fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 15, 2020 22:44
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I gently caress I forgot what it was named. Also shout out to Darkest Hour for being the only of all those licensed EU products that didn't crash and burn.
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Apr 15, 2020 22:48
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I was stuck in a hospital bed with a crappy laptop for a chunk of last year and Darkest Hour helped keep me sane. Totally stable, playable, lots and lots of scenarios and mods, lightweight, ridiculously high performance. Still great for what it is, even as I sink time into Hoi4 now.
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Apr 15, 2020 22:53
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HoI4 I think does well not just because of the WW2 theme, although that is a big part of it, but because it's also the most straightforward Paradox game in terms of having an idea of what you should be doing. Like the mechanics are still complex, but the objective is extremely clear. In CK2 you drop into a game and then you have to figure out your own goals entirely, which is hard to do when you don't know anything about the game. EU4 gives you missions to give you some direction, but it's still very much driven by the player taking the initiative. HoI4 meanwhile the war is going to happen whether or not you do anything so the objective is going to be obvious no matter what country you picked - win the war, obviously.
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Apr 15, 2020 23:00
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Soup du Jour posted:This is like entirely Johan’s fault since he’s gone on the record of saying that EU is not a series about that while ignoring the fact that some of the most popular mods for both EU3 and 4 were all about internal development to the point of being byzantine and incredibly cludgy with mechanics because the modders have to jury-rig everything to make up for it. So instead we have a game that seeks to model with increasing accuracy the exact geopolitical and geographic borders of November 11 1444 where the second you hit unpause every ruler immediately wants to fight WWII-style wars of annihilation with its enemies because it’s being designed and tested by people who have gotten too good at it like some sort of hard-mode romhack.  And it kills me that they still haven't taught the AI to pursue interesting goals either; even though I see the Timurids be ahistorically stable every game, I have never seen them form the Mughals. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 16, 2020 01:04
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Soup du Jour posted:This is like entirely Johan’s fault since he’s gone on the record of saying that EU is not a series about that while ignoring the fact that some of the most popular mods for both EU3 and 4 were all about internal development to the point of being byzantine and incredibly cludgy with mechanics because the modders have to jury-rig everything to make up for it. So instead we have a game that seeks to model with increasing accuracy the exact geopolitical and geographic borders of November 11 1444 where the second you hit unpause every ruler immediately wants to fight WWII-style wars of annihilation with its enemies because it’s being designed and tested by people who have gotten too good at it like some sort of hard-mode romhack. 
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Apr 16, 2020 02:49
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The issues of railroady events/missions and incessant total warfare seem like reflections of paradox’s difficultly modeling internal politics, particularly for EUIV. Hellwar happens because all the internal politics that made keeping your entire army in the field for 4 years to occupy another country, or letting your country get occupied, aren’t modeled. And it feels like railroading sort of stems from the fact that without internal politics to drive foreign policy, they sort of just need to tell states what to do. I understand it’s because they think players are interested in these games as war games, but it’s sort of sad because they end up sort of eliding the most interesting dynamic of the entire era behind a series of stacking modifiers and changes to mana generation rates.
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Apr 16, 2020 03:10
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Paradox games exist in a state of superposition, they're a board game when it comes time to designing and implementing the combat system, and a war game when it comes time to implementing the rest of it.
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Apr 16, 2020 03:57
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ilitarist posted:No it doesn't. Yeah it does ( ), Johan was really, really pissed people insisted they needed to continue supporting Gamergate and such on top of Steam, when it turned out Steam was something absurd like 90% of their sales.That just means that CK2 has had a longer shelf life though, I don't think it impacts the statistics (per the above) anyway. TheFlyingLlama posted:they gave everyone with the gamersgate version free steam keys for the game and any DLCs they had but there was still some pretty insane teeth gnashing at the time I was one of the folks who bought it on Gamergate (Gamersgate? I get it and the alt-right movement mixed up, what bad luck on naming) because it supported Paradox more back then (long story), and it was awesome that I could just move all my CK2 poo poo over to Steam. But boy oh boy did 10 people on the Paradox forums melt down over "DRM!!!!"
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Apr 16, 2020 04:32
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I'm just surprised in general that EU (hell, everything) is that much more popular than CK when CK is like the big standout brilliant game of the paradox library
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Apr 16, 2020 04:34
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Mister Olympus posted:I'm just surprised in general that EU is that much more popular than CK when CK is like the big standout brilliant game of the paradox library i figure paradox games are kinda like total war games in that the big determiner is how much you like the time period more than anything
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Apr 16, 2020 04:36
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That's another weird part because the whole knights-and-castles thing is way more generically popular than muskets-and-galleons in my head
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Apr 16, 2020 04:38
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i played ck2 after eu4 and it was insanely shallow and dull in comparison
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Apr 16, 2020 04:40
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also i didnt care about either time period at all (and i didnt play either for ages because of it) but eu4 made the time period interesting and i ended up looking up stuff and learning about things in that era because of the game
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Apr 16, 2020 04:43
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ck2 is probably the most complex paradox game with the most interlocking pieces. every system plugs into every other system. ck2 is sick.
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Apr 16, 2020 04:44
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its weird to hear that when playing it it felt extremely simple and straight forward and there was never really anything i was confused by or struggled to get to grips with
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Apr 16, 2020 04:45
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Stux posted:its weird to hear that when playing it it felt extremely simple and straight forward and there was never really anything i was confused by or struggled to get to grips with confusion is not the same as complexity. eu4 has an extremely confusing, backwards rear end fort system that no one actually understands. that doesnt make it a more complex game, it just makes it harder to understand whats going on. its complicated, not complex. ck2 is easy to understand whats going on, but all the things you can be doing plug into each other, developing complexity while also being easy to understand.
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Apr 16, 2020 04:47
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Sampatrick posted:confusion is not the same as complexity. eu4 has an extremely confusing, backwards rear end fort system that no one actually understands. that doesnt make it a more complex game, it just makes it harder to understand whats going on. its complicated, not complex. ck2 is easy to understand whats going on, but all the things you can be doing plug into each other, developing complexity while also being easy to understand. but when you come up against a complex system at first you are usually confused until you work out the intricacies of it. where is the complexity in ck2 and im genuinely asking because i would love another complex grand strat game i can pour hundreds of hours into alongside eu4. once i hit a certain size my vassals basically auto expanded and i get that apparently the idea is you get invested in your specific rulers through the events, but theres so few events they repeat for each ruler and it all begins running together. there seems to be more unique things happening in a game of eu4 than ck2. to me eu4 and hoi4 are complex and not really in a confusing way at all. stellaris is moderately complex. ck2 seems the most simple of the four.
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Apr 16, 2020 04:52
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CK2 is technically complex because it has so many moving pieces, many more than EU4, but it's not like you actually need to interface with all the complexity. However, I highly recommend watching some of the older content of a youtuber such as Arumba break the game over their knee with nonsense. To me, CK2 is much more like a grand strategy idle game that occasionally makes a good story or two.
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Apr 16, 2020 05:04
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ck2 is fundamentally a pretty easy game.
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Apr 16, 2020 05:16
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BBJoey posted:ck2 is fundamentally a pretty easy game. paradox games are fundamentally very easy
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Apr 16, 2020 05:23
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what are the pieces and how do i interact with them though i guess is what im asking. i want the complexity. i feel like its a lot easier to break the game over your knee, my first game was as a muslim duchy in iberia and i ended up holding all of spain, france, a large part of north africa and most of germany before i felt like there was no point to what i was doing anymore. the character stuff especially felt shallow and maybe that was expectations, because i was expecting it to be the focus from what i had heard, but all my rulers ended up feeling very similar. is this a problem with the game where only a small number of regions/religions have all the events or something?
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Apr 16, 2020 05:24
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