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Harrow posted:My girlfriend has been watching my playthrough and this is about where her foreknowledge was. She knew about Cloud and Sephiroth from just having hung out with people who play video games and having gone to anime cons and poo poo, and she knew they were from a Final Fantasy game where Cloud is the hero and Sephiroth is the villain. That's it. Deciding if the old game is a spoiler for the new game when the new game is openly referencing it is a pretty tricky judgment call. I avoided refreshing my memory on some things, but not knowing Aerith dies when the game is heavily leaning on that callback seems like missing out.
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Apr 16, 2020 18:29
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Pollyanna posted:Yes, but now we are expecting it. Actually, people are expecting two things now: Ah yes, the ol' Schrödinger's Aerith
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Apr 16, 2020 18:31
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I don't think Sephiroth will kill Cloud because he's made it very clear he doesn't want to kill Cloud. He very much wants Cloud to continue being his counterpart basically forever. Their relationship has this mutual obsession thing that's reminding me of, like, Will Graham and Hannibal Lecter in the Hannibal TV series, right down to the manipulation and obsession. But I also think Sephiroth probably doesn't want to kill Aerith this time around because he likely knows that her death is one of the events that contributed to his eventual defeat. He's setting up Cloud to break destiny and save her. So who knows. Maybe if Cloud dies saving Aerith that accomplishes everything Sephiroth wanted--maybe he only wants Cloud alive so that he can prevent Aerith's death and after that he's disposable. I still don't think Cloud will die, though, unless it happens at the very end of the last part.
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Apr 16, 2020 18:31
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Cao Ni Ma posted:It would be subversive as hell to have the exact lead up to the stabbing scene but seph just veers to the front and lands on cloud instead. Harrow posted:I don't think Sephiroth will kill Cloud because he's made it very clear he doesn't want to kill Cloud. He very much wants Cloud to continue being his counterpart basically forever. Their relationship has this mutual obsession thing that's reminding me of, like, Will Graham and Hannibal Lecter in the Hannibal TV series, right down to the manipulation and obsession.
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Apr 16, 2020 18:32
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lezard_valeth posted:Why is it that when someone likes a game they can express so in less than two sentences, but when they don't like it they have to write a manifesto When a thing is "good" its just good as expected, time for the next good thing.
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Apr 16, 2020 18:36
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guts and bolts posted:Being subversive just for the sake of being subversive is boring and lazy, though. I'm not saying Cloud should be completely clad in Plot Armor or that the story couldn't work if he died, but having him die instead of Aerith in the same way would basically be like... misery fanservice? Is there a term for that? Drama for the sake of drama is called misery porn and I hate that poo poo with a burning passion. Also is it just me or does Sephiroth have weirdly rapey vibes towards Cloud? I keep trying to view it as strictly mind fuckery but he comes across like an abusive ex. trying to lure his partner back in with "I'm different" "I need you  " "You're inherently bad and nobody but me will appreciate that"
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Apr 16, 2020 18:45
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Here’s a though... how would Aeris not dying help Sephiroth win? Her only contribution after her death was guiding the lifestream in the end - but she only had to do that because the others spend most of the rest of the game stumbling around aimlessly due to loosing the one person who knew what needs to be done.
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Apr 16, 2020 18:47
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Raxivace posted:Its because people get too attached to their expectations for media in general, and when those expectations aren't met its a horrible betrayal meant to attack them personally and probably their families as well so the whole world needs to know just how exactly they were wronged. Yeah, it's kind of like the whole 'parasocial relationship' quandary. People have invested emotional weight in this piece of media they spent 30 hours on (that, mind you is one directional - the game doesn't have any emotional stakes in the player) and having the rug pulled out from them right at the end feels like a betrayal. For what it's worth (and I've talked about it upthread) I thought the ending was dumb, but it was the best kind of dumb that wrapped back around to become awesome again. The analogy I used before in this thread was comparing it to Professional Wrestling and I still feel that's apt, given that Barrett has the speaking cadence and mannerisms of someone cutting a wrestling promo constantly. It's dumb and awkward, but gently caress if it wasn't entertaining going from 0 to  in the matter of 30 seconds. During that final sequence I said out loud "This is so loving STUPID that I actually love it" with the biggest poo poo eating grin on my face.
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Apr 16, 2020 18:48
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Avalerion posted:Here’s a though... how would Aeris not dying help Sephiroth win? Her only contribution after her death was guiding the lifestream in the end - but she only had to do that because the others spend most of the rest of the game stumbling around aimlessly due to loosing the one person who knew what needs to be done. And I mentioned this earlier but if they get rid of the black material in some way ol' Seph is gonna have to get creative.
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Apr 16, 2020 18:48
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Bland posted:I don't know how you missed the telegraph of 'the names of the ability the enemy is using literally pops up on screen before they use it'. Some moves can be dodged, some can't. Some moves can be blocked, some can't. Some moves can be countered, some can't. And so on and so forth. The game rewards you for recognising which moves are coming and taking the correct action to either avoid or mitigate them. I found it to be extremely engaging. drat that makes sense actually. I started noticing these at some point later in the game but they show up way earlier by a few seconds than the actual attack comes. My training from other games is that the telegraph comes very soon before the attack and using those things to judge timing. I guess I was just expecting the wrong thing out of it. Harrow posted:I should point out that isn't how I feel about it personally, but I can relate to that being a bit of a sucker-punch. Whether what comes next or not is good is sort of immaterial in that moment--you've been lulled into believing this is the remake you dreamed of, to the point that you've even played 30+ hours of the game of your fuckin dreams, only for the very end to pull the rug out from under you. I imagine for some people it feels outright spiteful, even if I really don't think that's the creators' intent at all. Yup, that's pretty close to how I feel. It's the first game in decades I've allowed myself to get excited for, and then it's not even what was on the tin. I wouldn't have bought it if I knew this. Look I'm OK if they change stuff, I thought they made a lot of positive changes, I thought it was an overall good game. They did better than the original in many many ways. If they had called it "Final Fantasy 7 Whispers of Destiny" I would be fine and we wouldn't be having this conversation. But they put the name "Remake" on it, and I feel lied to and betrayed. Blueberry Pancakes posted:Forgive me if this was asked before, but if Midgar is a pizza and the Mayor is named Domino, does that make Midgar Domino's Pizza? Yep that's it you got it that's the joke  Fun fact the mayor's assistant's name is Hart but in Japanese his name was Hutt, as in Pizza Hutt.Caidin posted:I mean not really, Cloud just needs to have the Buster Sword and for Zack to be absent so his broken mental state can start cribbing off Zacks character sheet. It could be as complicated as alternate or merging timelines or as simple as Zack getting mugged by dementors and spending the first part stuck in a final destination film until the crew deals with the Destiny situation. Fine Square writers can rejigger what happens and make it work. But they didn't explain any of that in the story itself. What you describe is a strictly weaker version of events. Bringing Zach back to life invalidates the end of Crisis core, invalidates Cloud's struggle with his identity, makes death cheaper in the franchise, etc etc. The writers were lazy and didn't think this through. Everything about the remake that didn't come from the original has these problems. At some point I'm stealing from a bedridden man and thinking "what the gently caress is this game? why are they asking me to do this?" Somewhere around the second ward in the Drum I'm thinking, "What the gently caress is Hojo's problem why does any of this matter?" Then Cloud and Sephiroth are smushed together at the end as though the writer yelled "AND THEN THEY MUST FIGHT" even though they have zero reason to actually do so. Aeris suddenly can sparkle-telepath with rat dogs and is a Whisper Psychic, where did they explain how she can do all that poo poo? You can't keep doing that and ask people to actually care about your story. Even if I knew to expect a completely different story, gently caress if I trust these writers to deliver a good one. I have other things to do than watch this nonsense. Harrow posted:One thing that this remake did and I didn't really expect is... gently caress, I really don't want Aerith to die this time. And at the same time, I do. But I don't. But... Aerith's death has meaning because it's permanent. If you undo it then you undo its meaning. Harrow posted:I don't think they'd have gone to the trouble of including the Whispers at all if they were just going to expand on the original story in the same way that this part of the remake does. They didn't need the Whispers as a metaphorical "free yourself from the original FFVII story" fight to do things like add completely new characters like Roche, new events like the Chapter 4 mission with Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge, new plot and setting elements like exploring the lab under Sector 7, or even totally redoing Wall Market (and massively improving and already-beloved scene in the process). All of those things could've been part of this remake without anyone but the most purist of idiot fans being upset at their inclusion. Even things like throwing in a Jenova fight a lot earlier was totally cool. Just quoting for truth here, except for the Jenova boss fight, which made no sense in context. They didn't even explain in the remake who Jenova is, why she's important, why Sephiroth came to get her, or even that Sephiroth came to get her. It's a moment that only makes sense if you played the original. guts and bolts posted:You fight Sephiroth because that has always actually made more sense to the flow of the narrative than the original, wherein Motor Ball is the final boss of the most iconic section of the game. Sephiroth's presence is already there in that you find the Masamune stuck in Daddy Shinra's back, and the increasing import of Sephiroth to the game's plot (and the receding of the Shinra-as-big-bad device) makes it a good time to introduce him to the party briefly and then to part ways. One of the weaker parts of the early OG FF7's narrative is how down for chasing the man in black that Barret and Red are; to their knowledge Sephiroth is a dead war hero, and even if you believe Cloud when he says Sephiroth is alive, he just killed the head of the enemy faction. Giving the crew a more personal stake in what's going on serves to better incorporate Barret and Red XIII into the scope of the game, and will likely make the explanation of what the deal is between Cloud and Sephiroth during the break in Kalm make more sense and feel less clunky. Sephiroth is trying to slam a meteor into earth to crack it open and slurp up lifestream. He's only interested in Cloud insofar as Cloud can help him. He has no reason to fight Cloud. As for Cloud, he can't even fight Sephiroth because he's still lying to himself about his identity and is under Jenova's thrall. Barret Aeris and RedXIII have never even seen Sephiroth. Sephiroth has never explained his intentions or motivations or plan. Cloud and Aeris say they have to fight him because "Believe me he's bad". My friend who has never played the original watched me play it and I asked her "why do we want to fight Sephiroth" and her answer was "I dunno ... he's the bad guy?" guts and bolts posted:I'm not being flippant when I say that you're kidding yourself if you think that anything with the FF7 logo on it won't sell a gorillion copies. The ending could be or maybe is divisive, but so were the Star Wars sequels in the new trilogy, and while I have no desire to rehash the particulars of that franchise I feel it's relevant to note that The Last Jedi, which could charitably be described as contentious, still grossed US $220m on its opening weekend, and the sequel to that (possibly equally as contentious, to boot) grossed US $175m opening weekend. There is a very short list of things that Square-Enix could do that would actually drive sales of sequel games down because of the popularity of the IP alone. Like, Cloud was the most-requested character ever for Smash Bros. and at the time FF7 wasn't even available on a Nintendo console. I think I saw poll results from Dengeki where he was like the second or third most popular video game character of all time behind, like, Mario. You're defending a popular series to release utter trash for as long as they want because it will make money. I don't buy that one. All other things being equal, good stuff makes more money than bad stuff. Regardless of how you felt about SW 8 and 9, if they had made generally likeable movies instead of polarizing ones, they could have kept their cinematic universe going a lot longer. guts and bolts posted:What's more, I think that you have to applaud the effort, in my estimation. They could absolutely have left the story untouched and the battle system turn-based and just updated the graphics of a game from 1997 and it would have made eleventy zillion dollars, but they deliberately tried to be more ambitious than that, and I respect that decision immensely. I'm not sure I like or agree with the changes that were made, or that there aren't parts that I feel could be improved, but that they tried to change what a remake is or could be is incredibly ballsy. I can give props for that. I'll applaud the effort as soon as I'm over being lied to. They called it a "Remake" - it's not a remake. It's a completely different story by their own in-universe logic. Mordiceius posted:Generally? The new players that I've talked to have responded with enjoyment of the character beats but general confusion about the overall story. Which then leads them to going online and reading summaries of the original game. Then further confusion why the events aren't lining up. SEE?!?
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Apr 16, 2020 18:50
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obviously they're going to kill off Cait Sith again for a second time, each death more heartbreaking and dramatic than the last
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Apr 16, 2020 18:52
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Vino posted:Square lied to their customers when they called it "Remake". This is not a remake. This is the first game in decades I've been hype about and it's not even the game I was told it would be. What the gently caress? source your quotes
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Apr 16, 2020 18:54
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DeathSandwich posted:Yeah, it's kind of like the whole 'parasocial relationship' quandary. People have invested emotional weight in this piece of media they spent 30 hours on (that, mind you is one directional - the game doesn't have any emotional stakes in the player) and having the rug pulled out from them right at the end feels like a betrayal. Oh man I would have loved to be in your headspace instead of mine. I've spent not 30 hours but literally hundreds possibly thousands on this game. I've played the whole thing through at least without exaggeration a dozen times. I went in expecting the original but better. If I had less investment in this I would have been in your headspace. For things I care less about I'm normally in your headspace. If they hadn't misled people about what the game was I'd be in your headspace.
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Apr 16, 2020 18:54
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Flopsy posted:And I mentioned this earlier but if they get rid of the black material in some way ol' Seph is gonna have to get creative. If anything Seph should be killing Aeris sooner - ideally after they get the black materia from the temple but before she can cast holy. I guess that might still lead to a scenario where the party defeats him - then meteor hits anyway, so none wins.
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Apr 16, 2020 18:54
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Vino posted:I'll applaud the effort as soon as I'm over being lied to. They called it a "Remake" - it's not a remake. It's a completely different story by their own in-universe logic. The trailer was pretty clear about it not being a straight remake, so this hyperbole about feeling lied to is ridiculous. If you went in expecting nothing to change, you had no reason to avoid the trailer due to spoilers.
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Apr 16, 2020 18:55
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Asema posted:source your quotes The game is called "Final Fantasy 7 Remake" what are you on about Sinteres posted:The trailer was pretty clear about it not being a straight remake, so this hyperbole about feeling lied to is ridiculous. If you went in expecting nothing to change, you had no reason to avoid the trailer due to spoilers. "Not a straight remake" is different than "a completely different plot". "Not a straight remake" was everything in the game up until the portal at the end of the highway. If I had turned the playstation off then, it would have been "Not a straight remake" and I would have been happy.
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Apr 16, 2020 18:57
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Vino posted:The game is called "Final Fantasy 7 Remake" what are you on about sounds like they are remaking the story and you just cried for nothing about it, better go into the court of law to get your refund bud loving lmao
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Apr 16, 2020 18:57
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Whispers are dumb as gently caress. If they wanted to make changes to the narrative they should have simply done that. Keeping members of the avalanche crew alive and other small narrative changes is more than enough to cause speculation about whether they'll adhere beat for beat to the original major plot points. Gameplay was awesome, wall market ruled, and some of the character plot changes were for the better. None of that puts shine on the giant turd that was Kingdom Hearts hand of fate anime trash.
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Apr 16, 2020 18:57
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Remake != Remaster.
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Apr 16, 2020 18:58
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Being upset that they put kingdom hearts into the game and "tainted the last 5%" of a "95% was really good" (these are your words) is one thing. Screaming about square and refund and being lied to is straight up reddit gamergate level crybaby
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Apr 16, 2020 19:01
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Vino posted:The game is called "Final Fantasy 7 Remake" what are you on about So just be happy with the part you're happy about, forget the end, and don't buy the second or third games.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:01
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Excuse me Chef while I thoroughly enjoyed the meal and ate 95% of it, I noticed it was cooked on the grill instead of the oven as traditionally and therefor I would like my money and time back
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Apr 16, 2020 19:02
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Remake != Remaster. Supes good they let their customers discover this after waiting 23 years and playing 20 hours instead of telling them from the get go. No problems with their messaging whatsoever.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:03
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Asema posted:Excuse me Chef while I thoroughly enjoyed the meal and ate 95% of it, I noticed it was cooked on the grill instead of the oven as traditionally and therefor I would like my money and time back I would also like to leave an essay on yelp about how this meal was an utter betrayal of it's roots.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:05
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exquisite tea posted:Whoever dies will be the one you went to first in the sewers, this cannot be changed or overwritten. Tifa noooo
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Apr 16, 2020 19:05
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Vino posted:The game is called "Final Fantasy 7 Remake" what are you on about Definition of remake transitive verb to make anew or in a different form
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Apr 16, 2020 19:07
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Definition of remake Square lied people died
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Apr 16, 2020 19:09
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Asema posted:Square lied people died 9/11 memoriam except it's for our fallen avalanche brothers and sisters 
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Apr 16, 2020 19:10
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Vino posted:Supes good they let their customers discover this after waiting 23 years and playing 20 hours instead of telling them from the get go. No problems with their messaging whatsoever. This but unironically.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:12
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Sinteres posted:The trailer was pretty clear about it not being a straight remake, so this hyperbole about feeling lied to is ridiculous. If you went in expecting nothing to change, you had no reason to avoid the trailer due to spoilers. Yeah the trailer straight up had the pillar of whispers circling the Shinra building, which pretty explicitly was not in the OG game, so I knew to expect things to be markedly different. I pretty much had the plot ghosts thing figured out when they showed up to wing Jessie. Every time they showed up I noticed it was when things started deviating from how it was in the OG game (Jessie getting clipped made them bring Cloud, The gang gets held up getting to the Plate Carrier so that everyone dies, carrying Hojo off before he can spill the beans about what Cloud is and trigger a psychotic break in him). I figured by the end they would have to find a way to defeat the fate that the game is pushing them towards. I think what came as more of a surprise to me was exactly how aware Aerith (and Sephiroth) were of the plot at large.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:14
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Pollyanna posted:Awesome, now both of you can share in seeing new things happen! the aerith death scene happens exactly as before, except for this time her staff didn't disappear into a cutscene void so sephiroth lands on it crotch-first.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:16
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My God the Cloud x Aerith and Cloud x Tifa shippers have restarted their war and are already making GBS threads on each other once again. I remember this from way back in 2000 it's kinda amazing watching the same old bullshit re-emerge.gimme the GOD drat candy posted:the aerith death scene happens exactly as before, except for this time her staff didn't disappear into a cutscene void so sephiroth lands on it face-first. fixed it.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:16
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Flopsy posted:My God the Cloud x Aerith and Cloud x Tifa shippers have restarted their war and are already making GBS threads on each other once again. I remember this from way back in 2000 it's kinda amazing watching the same old bullshit re-emerge. Aerith rules Tifa drools, get ready to watch Tifa die fuckers. Really though I like that this game does a better job of fleshing them both out as characters from the start. Tifa was pretty much just some girl Cloud used to know in the early part of the original.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:18
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can't wait for the Barret x Cloud kiss gently caress you nerds
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Apr 16, 2020 19:21
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Hetero shipping in a Final Fantasy game is a warcrime.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:21
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The Hojo thing was honestly hilarious. The ghosts spend so much time making sure people die as they should, and then they carry Hojo off like "Oh you idiot, you're gonna get yourself killed"
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Apr 16, 2020 19:21
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Jessie is best girl now btw.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:22
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exquisite tea posted:Hetero shipping in a Final Fantasy game is a warcrime. Yeah gently caress y’all. Aerith x Tifa and Cloud x Rufus forever. Jessie tho...... 
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Apr 16, 2020 19:22
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DeathChicken posted:The Hojo thing was honestly hilarious. The ghosts spend so much time making sure people die as they should, and then they carry Hojo off like "Oh you idiot, you're gonna get yourself killed" They were stopping him from telling Cloud about his past.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:23
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Sinteres posted:Aerith rules Tifa drools, get ready to watch Tifa die fuckers. Really though I like that this game does a better job of fleshing them both out as characters from the start. Tifa was pretty much just some girl Cloud used to know in the early part of the original. I ship Tifa x Aerith so I just LMAO at all of it. Honestly I've never managed to get myself worked up about shipping. If something really pisses me off I tend to leave rather than argue about it at length. exquisite tea posted:Hetero shipping in a Final Fantasy game is a warcrime. You get it.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:23
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