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Maybe they'll still kill of Aeris as before... but then let you bring her back.
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Apr 17, 2020 07:15
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Harrow posted:I'm generally not on board with a "someone dies instead of Aerith" thing no matter who it is but yeah your reasons for "at least please not Tifa" make a lot of sense. That also makes sense. I just keep people throwing around the idea of killing Tifa instead and I'm like "... do you have any idea what kind of message that would send?" I don't think Aeris's death is senseles, at least not in a narrative sense. Aeris's death is mitigated by her positive outlook, her willingness to help her friends even beyond her passing, and most importantly, her spirituality. Her death ends up being a victory for her and the planet, and Sephiroth unwittingly sows the seeds of his own failure by killing her. It also catalyzes Cloud's change into becoming his own (better) person. But unless they fundamentally change, like, everything, killing Tifa would just be cruel and senseless.
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Apr 17, 2020 07:15
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If nothing else, I think they spend a lot of time in this game demonstrating that they really get FFVII and what people like about it, deliberately to say that whatever differences there are in the story going forward they're not gonna change things just to be shocking or edgy. Which "lmao Sephiroth kills Tifa instead" would totally be
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Apr 17, 2020 07:15
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SyntheticPolygon posted:I think Aerith dying but in a different way is more likely than Tifa dying tbh. I get the feeling the lead up to her original death scene is going to be tense as FUUUUCK this time around as opposed to: holy poo poo this came out of no where. Hey uh...Sephiroth dunking himself in the lifestream doesn't kill him right? Or is that what essentially finishes his transformation into a Jenova creature?
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Apr 17, 2020 07:19
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Ms Adequate posted:One thing I will say is that I loving love how FF7R has sparked online theorizing and discussion not seen since the days of R=U. FF7 had "did everyone die at the end?" and "was Sephiroth controlling Jenova or Jenova controlling Sephiroth" 8 had R=U 9 I guess kinda had theories on what the hell Necron was? 10...the nature of Dream Zanarkand? Since it was not explained till the remastered versions that Dream Zanarkand was just an island far to the east with exploding blitzball mines From 12 onwards I can not think of a single debate or theory (granted I have not played 15). It seems that FF since have been more straightforward with their storytelling leaving little room for speculation and theorising
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Apr 17, 2020 07:21
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Beefstew posted:That also makes sense. I just keep people throwing around the idea of killing Tifa instead and I'm like "... do you have any idea what kind of message that would send?" Oh I mean like, in the moment, Sephiroth killing Aerith is just a senseless murder. There's no catharsis, no great dramatic moment of sacrifice. Sephiroth kills the party's most positive presence right in front of their eyes and it all seems so meaningless and leaves a void that is never filled. And that's the point--in real life, death often just leaves emptiness behind. Aerith's death hits hard because she isn't nobly sacrificing herself and the party can't even comfort themselves with that. In the moment, she's just loving gone. Later on, it turns out that her death is what enables her to save the planet. In the end, it has meaning. But in the moment, it's just loss. If, in the remake, she has to consciously sacrifice herself because she learns of the significance of her own death, that's a very different moment, both thematically and emotionally. It's not worse, necessarily, but it isn't the same thing.
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Apr 17, 2020 07:22
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lezard_valeth posted:FF7 had "did everyone die at the end?" and "was Sephiroth controlling Jenova or Jenova controlling Sephiroth" Nobody cared about Necron let's be real. FFXIV has a lot of theorising and so on, but i guess it's kind of a different beast.
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Apr 17, 2020 07:24
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Sephiroth will try to kill Aerith like in the original but Vincent will ballet into the way and save her. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JqMgYYbKQc
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Apr 17, 2020 07:25
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Flopsy posted:Kefka kicks the door in and starts dancing his way inside ala west side story.  MoaM posted:On that note, some of the soloing in those jazz fusion remixes is legit out there (go listen to "Bombing Mission" in your game); it was really nice to hear. Agreed! Here's the songs that were considered, btw. quote:jb_001 - Beer SQ - Disc 1 - 02 - Gold Saucer (Final Fantasy VII) - Elequesta of Tabla
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Apr 17, 2020 07:33
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Beefstew posted:That also makes sense. I just keep people throwing around the idea of killing Tifa instead and I'm like "... do you have any idea what kind of message that would send?" I have postulated about Tifa getting murked instead because I'm terrified that is what will happen, not because I want it to happen. I sincerely do not. It would just be the easiest, cheapest way to drum up pathos with built-in tension. My preference is that, yeah there's setbacks, but we do make a Golden Route FF7. gently caress it. Aerith lives, Zack lives, Cloud and Tifa have babies, Rufus reforms the world, and we find out the Promised Land was actually all the friends we made along the way. Don't give a gently caress how cornball that sounds, I love these characters. Give them happiness.
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Apr 17, 2020 07:33
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:Agreed! Here's the songs that were considered, btw. Was this datamined? The FFV ("Clash on the Big Bridge" loving owns) and both those FFIX tracks not making the cut really sucks. MoaM fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Apr 17, 2020 |
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Apr 17, 2020 07:40
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I don't want to quote]
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guts and bolts posted:I have postulated about Tifa getting murked instead because I'm terrified that is what will happen, not because I want it to happen. I sincerely do not. It would just be the easiest, cheapest way to drum up pathos with built-in tension. All this and Roche marries his bike and Reno and Rude finally start dating.
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Apr 17, 2020 07:41
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Ms Adequate posted:I need the bit where Cloud goes to the So for me, 7 Seconds is still likely a reference to Aerith's death. the City of the Ancients theme is being sampled, the guys behind it, especially Nomura, are the kinds of folk who do obscure, hyperfocused details like that. Also, the "7 seconds for Cloud to mess around" doesn't really have any weight because Cloud doesn't... do anything there.
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Apr 17, 2020 07:51
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MoaM posted:Was this datamined? The FFV ("Clash on the Big Bridge" loving owns) and both those FFIX tracks not making the cut really sucks. Datamined, yep.
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Apr 17, 2020 07:57
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Flopsy posted:All this and Roche marries his bike and Reno and Rude finally start dating. I guess they can have a date before they got popped in the head and thrown in a mass grave with the rest of the loving Nazis 
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Apr 17, 2020 07:57
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The ending had three goals: 1) Introduce us to our actual villain and give us a more active relationship with him than in the original 2) Provide a suitably epic capstone in case it turned out to be another Spirits Within and didn't sell like gangbusters 3) Give a fresh injection of tension into a story that is practically a modern myth at this point I'd say it succeeded on two of these things. Notice how everyone is speculating again? They made "Aeris dies" potentially a spoiler again. What's sloppy about it is that its inserted awkwardly at a point that should be a denouement and dissipation of tension of the Midgar arc/end of the first act, and that really kills the "epic capstone" part. They are also preparing people for a stronger overhaul the second act. To be frank, post Midgar/pre-Nibilhiem is extremely reliant on the player being interested in exploring the world. Cloud and Tifa had sufficient motivation but the rest of the cast were just kind of along for the ride. Expect the biggest divergences there until we get back on the rails. The tail half of the second act and third act are sufficiently epic it will likely just get the same treatment as Midgar, just expanded and fleshed out better. I mean, they were already setting up payoffs for "Huge Materia" in this, one of the most throw-away storylines of the original that was entirely just about giving the player end-game items. I accept that they're some metatextual frustration of being forced to follow previously established narrative at play in the Whispers, but its not nearly as much of a thumb in the eye of the fandom/the original that everyone seems to think it is.
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Apr 17, 2020 07:58
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Mulva posted:I guess they can have a date before they got popped in the head and thrown in a mass grave with the rest of the loving Nazis I don't think nazis felt like poo poo after they were done nazing it up. At this point you'd have stronger argument about that for Tseng.
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Apr 17, 2020 08:03
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The Turks are cool
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Apr 17, 2020 08:05
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Flopsy posted:I don't think nazis felt like poo poo after they were done nazing it up. lots of them probably did but feeling bad about being ordered to kill people doesn't make them less dead, and if you keep following those orders then you're still a nazi no matter how bad you feel about being one
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Apr 17, 2020 08:08
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cock hero flux posted:lots of them probably did but feeling bad about being ordered to kill people doesn't make them less dead, and if you keep following those orders then you're still a nazi no matter how bad you feel about being one I think you're kinda failing to grasp that dropping the plate is the point these guys start actually asking "are we the baddies?" and from then on start disobeying orders. I have more sympathy for villains who own their gently caress ups and seek to atone then the ones who double down with their poo poo.
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Apr 17, 2020 08:10
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cock hero flux posted:lots of them probably did but feeling bad about being ordered to kill people doesn't make them less dead, and if you keep following those orders then you're still a nazi no matter how bad you feel about being one Reno and Rude aren't Nazis they're just doing their jobs trying to protect the city and the normal people living there from insane ecoterrorists. Just happens that there are a lot of insane ecoterrorists and they had to drop a few city blocks on them. Flopsy posted:I think you're kinda failing to grasp that dropping the plate is the point these guys start actually asking "are we the baddies?" and from then on start disobeying orders. Serious answer is this. They're brainwashed and kept in the dark along with most people. Enjoying their work doesn't make them bad and they come good eventually.
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Apr 17, 2020 08:13
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Flopsy posted:I think you're kinda failing to grasp that dropping the plate is the point these guys start actually asking "are we the baddies?" and from then on start disobeying orders. They cracked jokes while knowingly going to kill tens of thousands of people, and got annoyed at the people they were murdering for daring to fight back. "Maybe mass murder is.....wrong?" gets them a hearty "Way to question your sociopathy for a minute buddy!" before getting popped in the loving head and fed to wild hogs. There is literally nothing they can do to walk them back.
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Apr 17, 2020 08:13
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The Turks feel like complacent middlemen without Elena; that's probably intentional. e: I think Elena will force them to BE HUMAN.
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Apr 17, 2020 08:14
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Mulva posted:They cracked jokes while knowingly going to kill tens of thousands of people This must be your first light entertainment
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Apr 17, 2020 08:15
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Mulva posted:They cracked jokes while knowingly going to kill tens of thousands of people, and got annoyed at the people they were murdering for daring to fight back. "Maybe mass murder is.....wrong?" gets them a hearty "Way to question your sociopathy for a minute buddy!" before getting popped in the loving head and fed to wild hogs. There is literally nothing they can do to walk them back. You seem nice.
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Apr 17, 2020 08:17
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Listen, I know they are fascist corporate goons that literally set out to mass murder the poor so that the board of executives could build prettier houses, but have you considered how hot they are?
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Apr 17, 2020 08:20
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Mulva posted:Listen, I know they are fascist corporate goons that literally set out to mass murder the poor so that the board of executives could build prettier houses, but have you considered how hot they are? Listen I know avalanche were essentially eco terrorists in the OG game but have you considered they were doing it for the planet? Dude seriously it's a game with time ghosts, chill the gently caress out.
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Apr 17, 2020 08:21
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Flopsy posted:Listen I know avalanche were essentially eco terrorists in the OG game but have you considered they were doing it for the planet? Dude seriously it's a game with time ghosts, chill the gently caress out. And here's the thing about that branch of AVALANCHE: They pretty much all die, and they do so going "We had this coming.". And then Reno and Rude get to chill out on a beach. But now there is a game, with time ghosts! And things can be different! And maybe one of the things that can be different is those two get it harder than anyone has ever gotten it in the history of fiction.
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Apr 17, 2020 08:24
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If avalanche could fight like Reno and Rude they'd be alive.
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Apr 17, 2020 08:25
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I figure if they kill anybody it'd be Zack. Aerith might physically dive into the Lifestream and be assumed dead, though. That would make sense since normally you don't live through that, but I mean if Cloud could do so, presumably Aerith could too.
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Apr 17, 2020 08:26
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Mulva posted:And here's the thing about that branch of AVALANCHE: They pretty much all die, and they do so going "We had this coming.". Except Barret because he was their actual leader. So I guess he deserves a shot in the head and being fed to wild hogs as well and never being forgiven. Make his daughter watch. Go all in. Just to be real clear you're currently climbing up my rear end over a pair of video game characters.
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Apr 17, 2020 08:26
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The Turks are fantastic please check your SOLDIER privilege.
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Apr 17, 2020 08:29
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Mulva posted:Listen, I know they are fascist corporate goons that literally set out to mass murder the poor so that the board of executives could build prettier houses, but have you considered how hot they are? It's nothing personal, bitch.
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Apr 17, 2020 08:46
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Gonna be honest I'm not getting into comparative morality of ecoterrorism vs being the secret police for a megacorp (but Avalanche did nothing wrong and this would be true even if they had loving nuked Midgar off the goddamn map) but the thing is, I liked the Turks as goofy comedic villains in the original cause they didn't kill anyone I cared about. The remake, they did too good a job making me like the individual members of Avalanche, so I no longer have an interest in the Turks as bumbling ex-villains, I want blood for Jesse. 
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Apr 17, 2020 09:05
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I don't like the Turks being challenging! I like them as bumbling easy to off mid-bosses!
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Apr 17, 2020 09:10
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Well, individually they weren't much. Reno could be counter Punished to death, Rude was hilariously vulnerable to the Nail Bat. They got much tougher as a team
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Apr 17, 2020 09:15
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The Ghost of Ember posted:They are also preparing people for a stronger overhaul the second act. To be frank, post Midgar/pre-Nibilhiem is extremely reliant on the player being interested in exploring the world. Cloud and Tifa had sufficient motivation but the rest of the cast were just kind of along for the ride. Expect the biggest divergences there until we get back on the rails. I bet Rocket Town events will happen sooner in the remake for several reasons. One it actually begins to drive the plot again since Junon. You run into Rufus and find about where Sephiroth might be headed. In the original, there was no real reason to go to Coral/Golden Saucer. You just had to go there to do the events for buggy so you can cross a shallow river. Likewise, there's no reason to go to Cosmo Canyon either except your buggy breaks down and you need something to pass the time (or flip the buggy is fixed flag). In fact you can skip Cosmo Canyon with an exploit so your buggy doesn't break down. With the events of Rocket Town and Rufus in place, you now have reasons to go to Cosmo Canyon (to find out about the Keystone from Bugenhagen) and Golden Saucer (to retrieve the Keystone). Nibilhiem was just a mandatory stop on your way to Rocket Town, so I guess it might happen even sooner in the remake. Of course this is all assuming they follow a general structure of the original game.
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Apr 17, 2020 09:16
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DeathChicken posted:Well, individually they weren't much. Reno could be counter Punished to death, Rude was hilariously vulnerable to the Nail Bat. They got much tougher as a team I smashed out hard Reno and Cloud had to 1v1 Rude due to no raise. I just countered him and hit him with a limit.
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Apr 17, 2020 09:19
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:I’m actually replaying the original right now out of nostalgia and the Nibelheim flashback isn’t actually that long. most of the time spent is random battles on a couple screens, but the actual narrative content is maybe like a half hour, and there’s really not much you can expand on unlike midgar. I could totally see it being an in-medias-res intro to part two where it starts in the truck and then right after the Dragon fight it cuts back to the Kalm inn to show that its Cloud giving everyone the backstory. Even if you go as fast as possible and break the game by making sephiroth no longer exist in your party (therefore avoiding all of his dialogue stops) the kalm segment still takes a bare minimum of 20 minutes. In a casual play through it’s a bare minimum 30-45 minutes if you don’t go around the town and talk to anyone before sleeping in the inn. Talking to people in the flashback is kind of one of the major points of it too, you’re not supposed to just sprint through the thing because you know where all the triggers are. The whole point of the segment other than cloud giving the party the back info is supposed to show you how drat weird the town is when you visit it In the present. The whole thing is essentially an in engine cutscene. We don’t need to establish who or how strong sephiroth is in the remake nor do we really need to establish a backdrop for his and cloud’s history. Also, nothing actually happens in kalm besides that one cut scene and an endgame vendor that gives you stuff in the American/eu version. He isn’t even there in the Japanese version. Either kalm needs to be reworked and expanded or cut because making a unique town so the party can sit in the inn is kind of a waste of dev time. Now, look at the way the remake was made. Any area after Roche that doesn’t get multiple visits or is relegated to side quests is essentially cut and paste corridors. Major areas that were iconic got serious overhauls if they required multiple visits, meanwhile the shinra building is missing a decent portion of its floors and puzzles (probably because they couldn’t be reused to pad the length out and it was easier to just add a bland looking hojo dungeon.) Add all this in with the devs openly commenting that the ff7 plot is weak in places and needs to be rearranged and it becomes possible to get a good guess at what they’re talking about when you look at remake episode one for context. Certain scenes can be moved around, redone, or just straight up expanded upon to streamline the cinematic story experience. Another example is lower junon: while it’s a cute point in the original game the slums will need to be expanded upon in order to make in engaging to the player or the encounters need to be switched to take place in upper junon. Now obviously it’s going to be reworked because a lot of the groundwork is already done here as the midgar slums already exist and have an aesthetic on par lower junon and the gameplay segment is actually enjoyable. At the end of the day a lot of ff7’s mid and endgame content is simply revisiting old locales after the story drags itself from cosmo canyon to Aerith’s death. In this context it’s easy to see why wall market and the shinra hq have so much detail and sector seven is basically tifa’s bar, the weapon shop, and some nondescript buildings. We’re going to come back to wall market and shinra hq in endgame. I don’t expect anything that’s a one-off town unable to be reused in part three to be particularly well developed or visually stimulating. There’s something magical about seeing midgar and the plate faithfully recreated in a new engine, less so for places like costa del sol and icicle town. Even at that, nothing visually stands out in the first segment of remake midgar other than aerith’s house and the view/absence of the plate. I think anyone going into this with expectations of a fully fleshed out ff7 game world faithfully recreated for every pointless scene is going to be slightly disappointed. It took them three years to create a (admittedly wonderful) padded out version of midgar where a good portion of the game is backtracking. Faithfully recreating junon is already going to take tons of time and a lot of towns would straight up have to be expanded upon to avoid having them feel like ff15’s completely lifeless three room towns. The ending of the remake wasn’t just a warning that they’re changing the plot somehow to save the stress of trying to slam the original story into an episodic release while still hitting proper storytelling devices at the right times. It’s also a very loud message that if you ever want to see this thing finished before another entire console cycle passes then some changes are going to have to be made in the presentation and gameplay. I’m willing to bet very large amounts of money that wutai will be a very important area in the remake and a lot of plot beats/areas will be moved to a (bigger) wutai continent. It’s been stressed before but wutai is by far the most politically problematic thing in the original ff7 and I highly doubt it’s going to be the same. They’re already pointing this out in the remake, both Rufus and Domino know President shinra is going to die, this isn’t because of the spooky fate ghosts but because according to lore Rufus is the guy who finances AVALANCHE when they’re founded in... wutai. They just don’t expect sephiroth is the one that’s going to do it but Instead expect an avalanche assasination because Rufus is paying them to. We’ve already deviated from normal ff7 lore because NONE of that is established in the vanilla game but it’s very clearly implied in the remake. HORSEPORN fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Apr 17, 2020 |
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Apr 17, 2020 09:21
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I disagree that we don't need to establish Cloud and Tifa's past with Sephiroth. And frankly also with the idea that Hojo saying "you're not a SOLDIER, you're..." completely ruins a twist that occurs 30 hours later. The twist wasn't just that Cloud wasn't a SOLDIER, but also that he was one of those faceless infantrymen that we've been conditioned to not care about. That was the part that blew my mind as a kid anyway. If anything, "you're not a SOLDIER" primes a naive viewer to think he'll be something even more special. Clarste fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Apr 17, 2020 |
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Apr 17, 2020 09:28
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