|
Not if you think of it as lovely(er) pro wrestling. You've got your republican heels and your Dem babyfaces going at each other in some big public work, but they all cash the same lobbyist checks at the end of the day.
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 11:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 15:14 |
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:that only makes sense if one sees them as actual russian-style controlled opposition which i don't think is credible. even the imo oversimple careerist/grifter model needs the party to have positions to give out and officials who can hire aides etc, for which you need to win elections They generally control 50% of congress and most of the largest states where people actually want to live. There’s plenty of grift room in that model, and regardless the presidency will come back around. Even if trump wins they feel in four years they will have the shot. In the meantime they bring in #resistance dollars on top of the regular dollars. Trump is the best thing to ever happen to msnbc and cnn after all.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 11:20
|
|
|
even if one sees the democratic party as a narrowly self-serving business for the people investing in it, they are highly interested in winning elections. the sheer amount of spoils involved in winning the white house is too lucrative for such an organisation to not desperately want it - greed is a dangerous motivation because greedy people always want more. the dems ran biden because he was the only one who could defeat sanders, who was rightly seen as a greater threat than the republicans to the principal interests represented by the democratic party. this does not mean that they're anything else than extremely keen on getting biden into the white house now that he's their guy. if they weren't, they would be acting outside of any reasonable model of motivation - they would have to be actively and consciously acting in bad faith, and i don't think that they are. hardly anybody actually wants to be the villain.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 11:39
|
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:even if one sees the democratic party as a narrowly self-serving business for the people investing in it, they are highly interested in winning elections. the sheer amount of spoils involved in winning the white house is too lucrative for such an organisation to not desperately want it - greed is a dangerous motivation because greedy people always want more. No one is saying they don't want to win. It just isn't as high on their priority list as one would expect. Yeah, winning is better, but the ones in power remain rich and powerful regardless of whether they control the white house or not. They aren't going to lose any sleep over a second Trump term because it don't affect them negatively.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 11:54
|
|
|
Whether the Democrats are doing something stupid out of callous evil or genuine incompetence seems like a distinction without difference at this point
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 12:19
|
|
|
Of course the Democrats want to win and think Biden can do it. They're just terribly stupid.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 13:00
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:Of course the Democrats want to win and think Biden can do it. They're just terribly stupid. The normal "voters" do, but the lobbyists running the DNC and various campaigns get paid as long as they please their owners.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 13:09
|
|
|
the_steve posted:No one is saying they don't want to win. yes they are DEEP STATE PLOT posted:the poo poo that has come out about the uk labour party factually disproves this idea in response to V. Illych L. posted:i agree that sanders was the big threat, but no political party exists that doesn't desperately want to win elections, if for no other reason than to maintain their patronage networks through handing out ambassadorships etc in the context of Mind_Taker posted:The Democrats absolutely don’t give a poo poo if they lose to Trump. Their goal was to defeat Bernie Sanders. The grift can continue with Trump in office, it couldn’t with Bernie. like, i'm not saying that the electability pitch was ever fully sincere, but the democratic party does want to win quite badly - it just doesn't see a sanders presidency as a win
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 13:14
|
|
|
But the also don't see a Biden failure as a loss.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 13:18
|
|
|
they absolutely do make no mistake, an ordinary electoral defeat is preferable to losing their own party to these people, but if trump is still in the white house in 2021 that's a big blow to the democrats there's also a lot of evidence that they sincerely think biden's a strong candidate - his call for a return to normalcy is a strong one, and obama nostalgia is a big deal. if he can keep it together, there's no guarantee that he'll lose, especially with the situation being so chaotic.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 13:27
|
|
|
The two-party system means that they won’t be out of power indefinitely, and there are advantages to being the “resistance” party too. They’re probably already writing up bullet points for how to respond to a Biden loss.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 13:28
|
|
|
Antifa Turkeesian posted:The two-party system means that they won’t be out of power indefinitely, and there are advantages to being the “resistance” party too. They’re probably already writing up bullet points for how to respond to a Biden loss. they're definitely preparing to consolidate in the event of a defeat, but the only real benefit of opposition is that it's easier to become popular from opposition, which can be leveraged into no longer being the opposition the idea that a major party is uninterested in winning high office is simply absurd. in some cases elements within the party can accept a defeat in order to strengthen their internal position, but defeatism is not ever an institutional doctrine
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 13:33
|
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:but if trump is still in the white house in 2021 that's a big blow to the democrats I am not convinced that the defense and pharma lobbyists running Bidens campaign give a poo poo. Either way their masters are happy now and they win.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 13:44
|
|
|
FRINGE posted:I am not convinced that the defense and pharma lobbyists running Bidens campaign give a poo poo. Either way their masters are happy now and they win. capital is not monolithic. a lot of democratic interest groups are going to be disfavored under a trump admin, including sections of the financial services sector and some service sector interests, relative to the big oil and gas and industrial concerns which have gotten behind trump - and this isn't even getting into the civil society actors the democrats absolutely depend on to actually mobilise voters and recruit staffers/candidates, who are going to be completely frozen out by the trump admin
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 14:03
|
|
|
If Trump wins re-election the Democrats will take the same lesson they did from 2016, that they didn't do enough insulting of people who aren't them, and also they need to appeal more to Republicans.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 14:11
|
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:they absolutely do You are severely...and I do mean severely downplaying just how catastrophic Trump being in the White House in 2021 is not just for the Democratic Party but for liberal and progressive ideas as a foundational set of concepts that are worth believing in...and whether or not they're even workable inside the framework of a representative democracy. I don't know how you guys and gals...who by all indications are pretty well read in politics, or at least well traveled in paying attention to them...don't understand the absolute severity of the bag we're in right at this moment. Because if you did, you would never say what I quoted above. Like, it is absolute lunacy that there are progs out there that think the DNC would rather have Trump get a second term and lose literally everything our party has fought for for the last six decades over having to navigate having Bernie Sanders as President. Like, those words would never leave your skull. V. Illych L. posted:they're definitely preparing to consolidate in the event of a defeat, but the only real benefit of opposition is that it's easier to become popular from opposition, which can be leveraged into no longer being the opposition There is no 'consolidate.' There is no anything. In that event, all is lost. Period.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 14:14
|
|
|
TyroneGoldstein posted:You are severely...and I do mean severely downplaying just how catastrophic Trump being in the White House in 2021 is not just for the Democratic Party but for liberal and progressive ideas as a foundational set of concepts that are worth believing in...and whether or not they're even workable inside the framework of a representative democracy. Yea I'm sure that the henchmen of capital are actually super concerned about the wellbeing of the peons lmao. I guess that's why they keep passing all the poo poo that Trump wants too.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 14:18
|
|
|
lol the democratic party and bourgeois democracy will be just fine with four more years of orange man, it's just right-populism the question is whether it will survive the rona
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 14:31
|
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:i think they're legit banking on people wanting an inoffensive empty suit instead of orange man Cory Booker is sitting ready by his phone if you want to call or just kind of touch base.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 14:32
|
|
|
TyroneGoldstein posted:Because if you did, you would never say what I quoted above. Like, it is absolute lunacy that there are progs out there that think the DNC would rather have Trump get a second term and lose literally everything our party has fought for for the last six decades The War on Drugs, unmatched prison population, attacks against Social Security and Medicare, the draft of the PATRIOT Act, (and so on...) - you know that those were all "Democrat" Joe Biden and not a Republican boogeyman right?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 14:37
|
|
|
eXXon posted:Cory Booker is sitting ready by his phone if you want to call or just kind of touch base. Booker actually reminds me of Biden in that he's another guy who seems to actually believe that the financial industry is an important contributor to national well-being, rather than having to be paid to think that. Or maybe he's just better at faking it than others. He has many other drawbacks as well but he'd still be a better fiat candidate than loving Cuomo.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 14:45
|
|
|
TyroneGoldstein posted:Because if you did, you would never say what I quoted above. Like, it is absolute lunacy that there are progs out there that think the DNC would rather have Trump get a second term and lose literally everything our party has fought for for the last six decades over having to navigate having Bernie Sanders as President. And you're misusing the word "we" a lot. Yeah, you and me are hosed. The people running the Party are gonna be just fine. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Apr 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 14:51
|
|
|
Imagine thinking the Democrats are actually trying to win. Just imagine it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 14:53
|
|
|
TyroneGoldstein posted:You are severely...and I do mean severely downplaying just how catastrophic Trump being in the White House in 2021 is not just for the Democratic Party but for liberal and progressive ideas as a foundational set of concepts that are worth believing in...and whether or not they're even workable inside the framework of a representative democracy. the idea that the people who voted to give trump expanded unilateral defense powers and also oversight-free concentration camps for untermenschen consider him an existential threat suggests you have a lower opinion of their intelligence than we do
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 15:06
|
|
|
TyroneGoldstein posted:You are severely...and I do mean severely downplaying just how catastrophic Trump being in the White House in 2021 is not just for the Democratic Party but for liberal and progressive ideas as a foundational set of concepts that are worth believing in...and whether or not they're even workable inside the framework of a representative democracy. The people running the democratic party do not have a strong preference for progressive ideas or democracy. They would prefer it, but they can survive.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 15:11
|
|
|
i mean how much does a banana cost, like 10 dollars?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 15:41
|
|
|
i got owned posted:Imagine thinking the Democrats are actually trying to win. Just imagine it. I think of the Republican and Democratic establishments like bitter golf rivals. They bet on the game and they are competitive and definitely want to win. But if some socialists show up wanting to convert the course into affordable housing, you better believe they'll stop giving a poo poo about winning golf until the existential threat is eliminated.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 16:12
|
|
|
PerniciousKnid posted:I think of the Republican and Democratic establishments like bitter golf rivals. They bet on the game and they are competitive and definitely want to win. If I call out "Imagine [believing thing I don't believe]" as an insufferable goon cliche, will people start using it less? I kind of felt like it worked for "TYOOL", but that was probably a coincidence. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Apr 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 16:19
|
|
|
Imagine believing you can make goons less insufferable in TYOOL 20XX.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 16:25
|
|
|
I believe in the ability of goons to be insufferable in new, fresh, and dynamic ways! Let's be proactive and create an outrageous new paradigm. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Apr 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 16:38
|
|
|
I think it’s rather unfair to assume that the Democrats don’t want to win. Trump is a complete refutation to every aspect of our American delusion, his very existence is an embarrassment to the elites who rule by lies: Wealth is earned by those who deserve it: Donald Trump. Power is democratically allotted to the most capable: Donald Trump The world is a fair and just place where those who have the most, deserve the most: Donald Trump All of a sudden, the wealthy and powerful have to sit next to the most blatant proof that their assets are unearned and undeserved. And they loving hate it. Because the reality is, not only do they rule through these lies, these mass delusions, they thoroughly believe them. That’s what causes such an immense hatred of Trump. His very presence screams, “If he didn’t earn it, did you?” And they can’t turn it off. He’s all over television every drat day. He’s raised an entire social media platform into the mainstream. His word, by the nature of his position, broadcasts the lies so bold they simply CANNOT be true. Trust me, they want him out.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 16:43
|
|
|
DEEP STATE PLOT posted:the poo poo that has come out about the uk labour party factually disproves this idea I haven't been keeping up recently, what happened with uk labour after Corbyn lost?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 16:50
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:I haven't been keeping up recently, what happened with uk labour after Corbyn lost? Corbyn being an anti-Semite was entirely made up by the centrists within the party from what I’ve heard
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 16:52
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:I haven't been keeping up recently, what happened with uk labour after Corbyn lost? There was a huge trove of emails/chat logs discovered demonstrating that many people high up in the Labour Party were, for lack of a better term, sabotaging Corbyn and openly rooting for the Tories to win the 2017 election. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leak-report-corbyn-election-whatsapp-antisemitism-tories-yougov-poll-a9462456.html
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 16:53
|
|
|
i got owned posted:Imagine thinking the Democrats are actually trying to win. Just imagine it. I can. That was the entire primary until Bernie dropped out. The job is done.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 16:56
|
|
|
Do the democrats want to win? Sure. It's how you go from think tank hack to VP at some tech company. Do they want to win to actually enact policy? Obviously not. Is it better for them to lose than to win in a way that threatens the "think tank > administration > VP of government relations for Evil Corp?" Absolutely. I doubt you will find a single 2016 Clinton campaign staffer that is doing worse now than before 2016.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 17:08
|
|
|
Mellow Seas posted:There was a huge trove of emails/chat logs discovered demonstrating that many people high up in the Labour Party were, for lack of a better term, sabotaging Corbyn and openly rooting for the Tories to win the 2017 election. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 17:14
|
|
|
The dems have done this poo poo too. For example, they torpedoed a centrist dem after 2016 cause bernie endorsed him (heath mello) The dems have been pretty explicit that they’ll do whatever they can to keep the left from having any clout, up to and including sinking candidates that are normally ideologically compatible with them and handing the election to a republican It makes the cries of #votebluenomatterwho even more pathetic. If even the party leadership doesn’t believe in undying fealty to the Democratic party, then why should anyone else?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 17:23
|
|
|
Some recent polling in Michigan and Wisconsin regarding the VP slot: https://www.axios.com/vice-presiden...osam&stream=top Looks promising for Warren. Also have to wonder if she got anything for her endorsement.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 17:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 15:14 |
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:like, i'm not saying that the electability pitch was ever fully sincere, but the democratic party does want to win quite badly - it just doesn't see a sanders presidency as a win if they really wanted to win, they would try to get rid of the electoral college for sure, because if it's just based on votes they would always win. But their rich friends would have to start muscling in on their turf to get paid, so that's out of the question. it's all just rich people playing around. everyone is friends with everyone else, and there is just one party at that point. it doesn't matter who wins or loses, just that the industry is maintained.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 17:34
|
|
