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i would like to reiterate that i'm not the one being utopian here, the european backlash against neoliberalism is increasingly taking the form of euroskepticism and we desperately need to get on that instead of leaving it to the fascists because it's on the rise with no realistic sign of stopping
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Apr 17, 2020 16:20
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Junior G-man posted:FT interview with Macron today: Macron often says perfectly reasonable things; but one should pay attention to what he does rather than what he says. The two are often quite contradictory.
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Apr 17, 2020 16:25
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Wait, I thought that Brexit and leaving the EU was bad?
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Apr 17, 2020 17:03
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Dawncloack posted:Explain your reasoning. What war? What tensions do you see brewing that bad? Will NATO be gone or do you think NATO doesn't help prevent internal war? The EU splitting would be a cataclysmic event stemming from a rage or literal push off of goobalism. Those events cause wars.
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Apr 17, 2020 17:06
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Orange Devil posted:Did it get crushed because of it's failure to get behind anti-european sentiment or was it because half the party consisted of Blairite class traitors who deliberately sabotaged everything with the intent of losing the elections as spectacularly as possible? Take a look at your avatar. That said Labour was hosed either way, going full Brexit would have chased everyone under the age of about 40 to the Lib Dems. Hence the move to a second referendum position before the election.
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Apr 17, 2020 17:11
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Blut posted:No, the alternative to "pro-EU" is only reactionary nationalism because thats how things actually are in the real world, instead of some imaginary theoretical paradise. In every European country today the most popular political parties advocating for -exit are the most fascist ones, and they're the ones who'll gain the most power from any country-exit or total EU collapse. Right-wing extremist parties have shown again and again over the last 100 years in Europe that they do better than left-wing alternatives in times of economic and political turmoil. I like this image of a patchwork Europe, which I feel like is the future V. Illych L. wants to see. Cut Europe into little chunks and its easier to fight for socialism in your own little piece, regardless of what is happening everywhere else. Honestly for a select few countries it even seems like a reasonable argument. I can't help but feel like in this scenario the outcome would be a few prosperous islands of socialism surrounded by a sea of vicious right-wing conservatism or even more intensely neoliberal governments. It seems like a very self centered, cowardly even, approach to regional politics. Come what may to the rest of the continent, I can at least feel secure ensconsced as I am in my little bubble of social democracy fueled by commodity exports and the world's largest sovereign wealth fund. This isn't a program for expanding socialism, it's a recipe for falling into ideological senescence and political irrelevance. The world has changed and Europe is no longer at the center of the world. If it hopes to have any influence on the future it will have to act together. Else the people of Europe will be relegated to pawns in the games of future great powers.
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Apr 17, 2020 17:22
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Squalid posted:I like this image of a patchwork Europe, which I feel like is the future V. Illych L. wants to see. Cut Europe into little chunks and its easier to fight for socialism in your own little piece, regardless of what is happening everywhere else. Honestly for a select few countries it even seems like a reasonable argument. I can't help but feel like in this scenario the outcome would be a few prosperous islands of socialism surrounded by a sea of vicious right-wing conservatism or even more intensely neoliberal governments.
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Apr 17, 2020 17:29
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I'm really not seeing a path to socialist reform of the european union, capital has far too much sway there, as illustrated by the lack of a path for solidarity-focused reform while *literally* in a global pandemic.
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Apr 17, 2020 17:37
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look, the framework of the EU is inextricably linked to the neoliberal consensus of contemporary politics, and the rejection of those politics is ongoing. some other confederative project may rise in their place (indeed, i would say that some other confederative project should rise in their place), but the EU in its present form is simply not compatible with any progress towards socialism. the issue is not with a european union, it's that i don't see the european union as effectively redeemable and i seriously believe that it's on its way out no matter what we do, making siding with this basically hostile institution even more of a drag
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Apr 17, 2020 17:59
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V. Illych L. posted:look, the framework of the EU is inextricably linked to the neoliberal consensus of contemporary politics, and the rejection of those politics is ongoing. some other confederative project may rise in their place (indeed, i would say that some other confederative project should rise in their place), but the EU in its present form is simply not compatible with any progress towards socialism. the issue is not with a european union, it's that i don't see the european union as effectively redeemable and i seriously believe that it's on its way out no matter what we do, making siding with this basically hostile institution even more of a drag EU policy comes primarily from the leaders of its constituent nation states, and secondarily from its MEPs. The policy is often neoliberal/centre-right at the moment because most nation states have governments that reflect those values, and most MEPs elected also do. If a majority of nation states in the EU elected far-left governments, and a majority of MEPs elected were from the far-left, EU policy would follow them quickly to the left. The main thing preventing left-wing policies at an EU level are European voters not voting for left wing parties in any number, not the EU. Getting rid of the EU wouldn't change the former. If anything, history suggests the massive economic and political upheaval that a collapse of the EU would result in would give power to far-right parties across the continent.
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Apr 17, 2020 18:06
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Blut posted:EU policy comes primarily from the leaders of its constituent nation states, and secondarily from its MEPs. The policy is often neoliberal/centre-right at the moment because most nation states have governments that reflect those values, and most MEPs elected also do. This is not true. Hard money is a right wing policy and it's in the basic ECB documents. Low government spending is aa right wing policy and its in the treaties and the "Stability" pact. The governments might be one thing or another but the institutional framework is right wing. Also, whenever that was challenged the consequences were dire, because French and German banks had to be protected. Hell, the other day the portuguese president had some disparaging comments about the position of some of the EU members in the middle of a global pandemic and not two days later the EC started raising the topic of Portuguese foreign debt. Come man, the mask is off. As for why there arent more left wing governments, there are many explanations, but I bet that the EU breaking your country and unleashing the propaganda if you try making left wing policies is part of it. But whatever, Europa delenda est.
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Apr 17, 2020 18:18
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right, EU policy is what governments do when they're basically unaccountable and get to do as they please. however, there's a great deal of effective left-wing policy which is constitutionally unable to happen under EU rules, particularly wrt state aid, railways, four freedoms etc. the whole project has evolved into an effective ratchet moving policy in a basically neoliberal direction - nations are free to move, but in substance they're only free to move the one way. of course people aren't going to vote for the left if the left cannot offer them anything - which the left cannot effectively do under EU rules. in addition, in order to change the way the EU works you have to get what amounts to full consensus around it, which is simply not going to happen because governments really like being unaccountable. this is why i am intensely skeptical of the possibility of reforming the EU - parties with the same counter-power agenda (one which can only be fuelled by dissatisfaction with how the EU works at the present, which is going to manifest as euroskepticism in the first place) have to be elected in not only one but several key countries simultaneously. DiEM25 are trying, bless their hearts, but they're not likely to form any governments any time soon. at this specific point in time in particular, the EU's systemic dysfunction should be quite clear - it has failed every time it's been seriously put to the test. it will keep failing, and it almost certainly will not allow for reform (i hope that i'm wrong here! there's very little reason to believe that i am, though). dissatisfaction with the EU will increase, and unless there's a progressive outlet for that it will go to the nationalists
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Apr 17, 2020 18:21
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Dawncloack posted:As for why there arent more left wing governments, there are many explanations, but I bet that the EU breaking your country and unleashing the propaganda if you try making left wing policies is part of it. do you think you would be safer outside the EU? It's not because of the EU that countries like Portugal are beholden to French and German banks. International finance has ways of dealing with intransigent governments, and I don't know why you'd rather cut a deal with the IMF or Goldman Sachs than the German government. Inside you at least have a some leverage, however small, and a voice at the table. Outside, you're just more meat on the chopping block.
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Apr 17, 2020 18:30
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something which is very important when discussing these things is that we're not discussing the general principle of a european coalition of some kind - we're discussing the european union in the year of our lord 2020, a specific political institution at a specific point in time with specific balances of power and interests involved in it. talking about a patchwork europe or whatever is simply speculation - it's entirely possible that the actual practice of euroskepticism will lead to the proposal of a new framework for european cooperation on some level. in fact, i suspect that it's going to come up in the inevitable discussions around what should replace the EU once euroskepticism starts seriously gaining ground again, even if it's the fascists doing it. i am myself in principle a proponent of a scandinavian federative state, for example. in britain, this took the form of a realignment towards the USA. on the continent, it will hopefully take other forms. however, arguing about it is pretty much pointless because it's a whole different discussion and contingent upon a thousand factors which aren't visible at this time. at this point, we have to decide whether or not we find it worth siding with the EU, and i have yet to hear an argument in its favour except weird rambles about geopolitical irrelevance or veiled accusations of fascism
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Apr 17, 2020 18:36
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V. Illych L. posted:weird rambles about geopolitical irrelevance or veiled accusations of fascism
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Apr 17, 2020 20:07
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V. Illych L. posted:even if it's the fascists doing it. i am myself in principle a proponent of a scandinavian federative state, for example. Lmao
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Apr 17, 2020 20:24
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Blut posted:If a majority of nation states in the EU elected far-left governments, and a majority of MEPs elected were from the far-left, EU policy would follow them quickly to the left. https://twitter.com/johnpodesta/status/667375199780806657 Squalid posted:Inside you at least have a some leverage, however small, and a voice at the table. Outside, you're just more meat on the chopping block. "he might abuse you but he also brings home the bacon" except he also locks the fridge if you make him angry Doktor Avalanche fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Apr 17, 2020 |
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Apr 17, 2020 21:43
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Blut posted:If a majority of nation states in the EU elected far-left governments, and a majority of MEPs elected were from the far-left, EU policy would follow them quickly to the left. And if a unicorn came flying to my house and pooped a pot of gold, I'd be rich. Even with just the top 5 largest countries in the EU -- France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Spain -- the chances of getting left wing governments in all five at once, I'm not even talking far left here, is a pipedream.
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Apr 17, 2020 22:18
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I think I even said it in this thread but the Remain and Reform strategy is the Lexit strategy in terms of difficulty but also happening simultaneously in all the core EU economies. It never had legs and was/is the hope of people who value controlled and measured change above achievable change.
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Apr 17, 2020 22:29
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But everyone getting out, making a far left government all of a sudden and then getting back together in a new far left version of the EU is far easier to do?
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Apr 17, 2020 22:34
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Doctor Jeep posted:https://twitter.com/johnpodesta/status/667375199780806657 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irqiUfcVMTk
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Apr 17, 2020 23:13
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Jesus Christ. Both Hillary and Trump are so bad.
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Apr 17, 2020 23:20
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An insane mind posted:But everyone getting out, making a far left government all of a sudden and then getting back together in a new far left version of the EU is far easier to do? getting a successful left government is *possible* outside of the EU. it is difficult to conceive of it within it
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Apr 17, 2020 23:35
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An insane mind posted:But everyone getting out, making a far left government all of a sudden and then getting back together in a new far left version of the EU is far easier to do? No alternative anyone has ever discussed on this thread is easy, I don't think.
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Apr 17, 2020 23:59
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Doctor Jeep posted:"he might abuse you but he also brings home the bacon" except he also locks the fridge if you make him angry the problem with this analogy is it's possible to run away from an abusive relationship. But Greece can't get away from Germany, nor is there any world police who gives a poo poo about their problems. Europe is stuck with Europe. Even without an EU Germany and France will still be setting the economic agenda, because they are the largest economies and have the most leverage. If you're not part of the decision making process, the decisions will simply be made for you. Those European countries which haven't joined the EU like Iceland have still gone through the same liberalization process as those in it, and the situation looks even worse when you look at the direction of nations on other continents.
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Apr 18, 2020 00:35
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The EU is not reformable because the EU is the status quo, and no dominant framework or Institution is going to reform itself whithout a significant threat to its existence or the maintenance of the status quo. The fact that the EU doesn't acknowledge the rise of right wing populism as a sufficient threat to itself and the status quo should really clue you in on what the nature of the the majority of EU institutions, governments and voters is.
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Apr 18, 2020 01:01
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An insane mind posted:But everyone getting out, making a far left government all of a sudden and then getting back together in a new far left version of the EU is far easier to do? yes Squalid posted:the problem with this analogy is it's possible to run away from an abusive relationship. But Greece can't get away from Germany, nor is there any world police who gives a poo poo about their problems. Europe is stuck with Europe. Even without an EU Germany and France will still be setting the economic agenda, because they are the largest economies and have the most leverage. If you're not part of the decision making process, the decisions will simply be made for you. Those European countries which haven't joined the EU like Iceland have still gone through the same liberalization process as those in it, and the situation looks even worse when you look at the direction of nations on other continents. lol again the same "a seat at the table" "a part of the decision making process" weakling arguments which have done jack poo poo for the last 50 years other than shift everything to rhe right more and more every day
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Apr 18, 2020 01:21
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Doctor Jeep posted:yes lol at 'weakling arguments,' because the logic changes if you're just big and strong and brave enough? Or maybe you think Estonia can set international interests rates through shear willpower, we might say it would be the triumph of the will perhaps? Sounds like a brilliant plan.
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Apr 18, 2020 02:39
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:The EU is not reformable because the EU is the status quo, and no dominant framework or Institution is going to reform itself whithout a significant threat to its existence or the maintenance of the status quo. They do acknowledge it actually, it's more that they don't know what to do about it. There's a huge amount of discussion and complaining about it. And it's not like there's even a simple answer in pulling leftwards from a centrist self-interest perspective, since EU electorates don't seem keen on electing the left right now. I imagine it would be a lot easier sell if there were significant successes for the left to point to. Corbyn getting elected would have been nice; even a quarter of the countries having a left government would make it a more realistic alternative. As things stand there's quite a lot of chauvinistic right-wing governments elected and precious few (centre-)left ones. e: I'm not even sure what countries that have radical leftist governments are there in the EU right now. At best they might be junior partners to centrist parties, and even that's considered a major success for the modern left. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 04:01
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Squalid posted:lol at 'weakling arguments,' because the logic changes if you're just big and strong and brave enough? Or maybe you think Estonia can set international interests rates through shear willpower, we might say it would be the triumph of the will perhaps? Sounds like a brilliant plan. that's why I'm not advocating complete balkanization, I want states to exit together, as a block, and create a new trading block like the EU except with better rules you're advocating lesser-evilism which has been tried and failed over and over again
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Apr 18, 2020 06:01
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Squalid posted:lol at 'weakling arguments,' because the logic changes if you're just big and strong and brave enough? Or maybe you think Estonia can set international interests rates through shear willpower, we might say it would be the triumph of the will perhaps? Sounds like a brilliant plan. How does this logic suddenly change when we're discussing having "a seat at the table"? Germania and France can and will still laugh at Estonia or Greece or whomever is the punching bag of the day and troika some more austerity for the sacred zero and gently caress you that's why, how does the EU change this dynamic?
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Apr 18, 2020 08:17
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it is very telling that the reform people never posit a strategy for reform except for electing reformist left-wing government simultaneously in most central countries or massively expanding the EU mandate(???) in the middle of yet another crisis of legitimacy for the EU
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Apr 18, 2020 08:29
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V. Illych L. posted:it is very telling that the reform people never posit a strategy for reform except for electing reformist left-wing government simultaneously in most central countries or massively expanding the EU mandate(???) in the middle of yet another crisis of legitimacy for the EU They don't have a strategy, just like you. They are just not pretending otherwise. And no, nuking the European economies and societies from orbit by dissolving the EU is not a strategy. Causing an unimaginable humanitarian disaster to create a better world is not a strategy. It's just gibberish.
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Apr 18, 2020 09:33
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GABA ghoul posted:They don't have a strategy, just like you. They are just not pretending otherwise. You're right. Unfortunately dissolving the EU is an inevitability at this point because the opposite is going to be resisted so heavily. Would you accept your state evaporating? And no way would dissolving the EU be a course to a better world, It would be a jump down the well and land on Fascism. Because the only government that can untangle a state from the EU is one with fast track rubber stamp power. And unfortunately the people will give those governments that power if they see the EU as more evil than true evil.
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Apr 18, 2020 09:40
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GABA ghoul posted:They don't have a strategy, just like you. They are just not pretending otherwise. the EU is dead on its feet already, the left needs to get on the rising wave of euroskeptic sentiment or get crushed by it
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Apr 18, 2020 09:52
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Full FT interview with Macron for those who are interested: quote:FT Interview: Emmanuel Macron says it is time to think the unthinkable
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Apr 18, 2020 10:17
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V. Illych L. posted:the EU is dead on its feet already, the left needs to get on the rising wave of euroskeptic sentiment or get crushed by it I sympathise a lot with all the anti-EU things said itt, and agree with most of them, but this is always a fundamental problem to me. As reasonably good leftists we (I think?) agree that you cannot have socialism in one country, it is either international or it gets crushed, whether inside or outside the European Union. Once you "ride the wave of Euroscepticism" and you get elected, supposing that you do and that fash don't beat you to it, how do you re-create the international side you need? You can't dissolve the EU and then say "we're building a new one, but this one will be better - with blackjack, and hookers." To me, a nationalist left project is always in much greater danger of falling to the New Right, because they'll promise roughly the same but also offer hatred of others, something EU has had a long appetite for that vastly precedes the establishment of any European institutions or structures. To me the fundamental problem is that the supranationalist form of the EU, which does to some extent recognize and respect national wishes, cultures and boundaries is reasonably well suited for a socialist internationalist project. The working of it is, on the other hand, directly opposed to the establishment of socialism on the European stage. I don't know if it's possible to get the cross-border, pan-European wave of socialism you'd need to overthrow the dikes built into the system, but nationalist leftism doesn't have a huge appeal to me. I really don't know how you get out of that particular set of linked problems.
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Apr 18, 2020 10:23
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V. Illych L. posted:it is very telling that the reform people never posit a strategy for reform except for electing reformist left-wing government simultaneously in most central countries or massively expanding the EU mandate(???) in the middle of yet another crisis of legitimacy for the EU Anyway, I've got a moderate solution to this issue: Just split the EU in two. V. Illych L. posted:the EU is dead on its feet already, the left needs to get on the rising wave of euroskeptic sentiment or get crushed by it
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Apr 18, 2020 10:34
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Scandinavian federation with Scots as honorary Scandies, IMO.Junior G-man posted:I sympathise a lot with all the anti-EU things said itt, and agree with most of them, but this is always a fundamental problem to me. As reasonably good leftists we (I think?) agree that you cannot have socialism in one country, it is either international or it gets crushed, whether inside or outside the European Union. The way Danish socialists in the ostensibly eurosceptic Unity List handled it was to rescind their support for the People's Movement Against the EU and go for their own seat, snagging the People's Movement's singular seat away from them and somehow doing even less with it. On the other hand, the People's Movement then came out, long after it became clear what a total clusterfuck it would be, and declared Brexit a victory. So I guess my point is dehumanize yourself, etc. SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 10:38
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https://twitter.com/ernesturtasun/status/1251217102226276352?s=19 WE need to realize we're not against Europe, Europe isn't again us, it's not a North vs South thing. It's a left vs right thing.
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