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That "J-E-N-O-V-A" remix is an example of another reason I'm looking forward to part 2. So many parts of this remake just unreservedly celebrate the original in ways that suggest the team really loves the original and wants to just sort of luxuriate in some of its best parts. The slow build-up to the full "J-E-N-O-V-A" theme during the Jenova Dreamweaver fight is an example of that, as is the insanely over-the-top rendition of "Those Who Fight Further" in the Airbuster fight. That one worked really really well for me because that's the part in the original game when you first hear "Those Who Fight Further," so using that fight to really celebrate and have fun with that theme is dead-on.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:04
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Okay, I'm watching Jim Sterling's videos on the game, and I'll admit he has a pretty good viewpoint on the game.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:10
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I've posted before about how my girlfriend knew so little about FF7 that she hadn't even heard the Most Famous Spoiler and she really loved Aerith, so I was trying really hard to keep it a secret in case it happens in the remake. She ended up having to go home for a few days to help care for her sick grandma and her brother spoiled her with a podcast he was listening to  
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Apr 20, 2020 21:13
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Harrow posted:So here's my thing about the pacing. I essentially agree, with the addition that Cloud actually appears to be a mercenary in FF7R, where he was just a temp for AVALANCHE in FF7. Having him interact with non-party members was refreshing, especially the kids in Sector 5. I agree that the sidequests are mechanically very dull, but by giving Cloud and the others breathing room and a chance to interact with the world of Midgar, it makes the entire game feel less melodramatic and soap-opera-y, if that's a word. One of the best parts of some of my favorite FF titles is that the game world feels fully realized and that the world would keep turning even if our characters weren't around; the original FF7 very much does not feel this way. Cloud is a load-bearing protagonist. You take him out and the whole house comes down. quote:But then the game has this weird habit of slamming on the breaks at the worst possible time for the story's pacing and not really giving you anything new that makes the detour worth it. The first of these is also the least bad in my view: the Train Graveyard. For one thing, that felt kinda like a weird speed bump in the original already. At the same time, at least it told a new little story that at least had some pathos to it and some interesting imagery. The Train Graveyard could have been trimmed some, but I wouldn't excise the entirety of it as it exists in FF7R. There's no need for two bosses there, to be sure, and Eligor in particular (and doubly particular on Hard mode!) is an annoying, mechanically tedious boss in a game where the bosses tend to be, on, the whole, pretty loving good. (Eligor and Swordipede are the egregious ones, if anyone was curious as to my opinion.) The real reason why Train Graveyard feels "worse" (I still liked it!) than Sewers 2 or the Drum, for me, is that for Sewers 2 the party is explicitly just looking for a way to progress the game, and in the Drum is explicitly trying to escape Hojo. In the Train Graveyard, they are trying to prevent Shinra from dropping the plate onto the Sector 7 slums, so having some cute moments where the girls cling to Cloud or a spooky ghost story about lost kids just feels out of place. Like, you can see the gunfire and explosions in the distance. Hurry the gently caress up, people. We don't have time to be creeped out by graffiti, EVERYONE YOU LOVE IS ABOUT TO DIE quote:And then there's the Drum, which does even less of note. It has kind of a visually neat boss fight at the end, but otherwise, what new thing did we get out of any of that? Hojo's bad and annoying and does evil experiments and... yeah, that's about it. It's all stuff we already know, stretched thin over at least an hour of tedious navigation, party-swapping, and fights with intentionally annoying-to-fight enemies like the whack-a-mole arms. I don't want to come off as ride or die for the Drum, but it's the scope of what the Drum is that is so striking. It's enormous, and filled with stuff the party lacks the code to interpret, giving the entire affair a sinister edge. It isn't just that Hojo is bad and annoying, it is that this company with seemingly limitless resources has empowered a psychopath to do whatever he wants to whomever he wants, and the results are often terrifying. The scale of it all is staggering. You could trim a few of the party-swaps down and make the chapter much more fluid and retain much more momentum, but I don't agree with people who think you should go directly from Aerith's room to the Jenova/Rufus/Arsenal segment. I also appreciate the effort if not the actual execution in trying to make Red XIII feel like a member of the party while not allowing him to be playable, which is a decision I'm still not sure I fully understand, outside of maybe budget/time constraints. quote:It's not just slow pacing that's the problem, though. Sometimes the pacing speeds way up or skips a step or two in a way that isn't great for the story being told. I respect your opinion here but disagree about Sephiroth. Seeing him early on (and then not again for a while) establishes that there is a greater scope to the events than what we are seeing play out, and that beyond just Shinra there is some serious poo poo happening. It's a neat juxtaposition considering what it follows: the event that evokes memories (?) of Sephiroth for Cloud is an awful lot of frankly tragic destruction with real human consequence, and Sephiroth is entirely lackadaisical about the whole affair. It also serves to change the dynamic between the two for fans of the original - Sephiroth is acutely aware of who Cloud is, makes no effort to claim he is just a puppet, and in fact insists the very opposite. "I'm the good guy protecting the Planet," he says, "and you're super special to me, Cloud." It's insidious and effective, and as I mentioned earlier, Sephiroth's writing and VA do a pretty good job of making him almost sound sympathetic, or like a changed man. It's seductive! Aerith, on the other hand, being accosted by the Whispers would have been infinitely more effective if that was manifested instead as some quasi-weird behavior on her part and then abrupt departure, giving the player a clue that something was up but not actually allowing us to see the Whispers influencing her actions. This would mean they'd have to come up with some other diegetic reasoning as to why Cloud can see them, but the writing team did not apparently care enough to make a big deal of the rest of AVALANCHE or the party seeing the Whispers? Like they all didn't rub Aerith's head or whatever... Anyway I think the Aerith moment could use more tweaking than Sephiroth, but I broadly enjoy Chapter 2 quite a bit. quote:The other big "the pacing started going way too fast and you skipped like ten steps" moment is Chapter 18 and Destiny's Crossroads. All I could think at the end of it was--we spent all that time in the Drum learning nothing, when we could've spent more time in Destiny's Crossroads actually exploring that idea somewhat. They could've made it a final dungeon and included more conversations between the characters about how they feel about what's happening and I think it would've helped the ending a lot, at least for me. Instead, it's a breakneck set-piece from stepping through the portal to the end that glosses over some giant ideas, possibly to the detriment of what that ending is trying to accomplish. I think that perhaps we, as a community, are overthinking/overvaluing the Whispers and Destiny's Crossroads some. I'm not even sure how diegetically important they're supposed to be - maybe, by having them killed here, they'll basically just not come up anymore? Fate defied, no destiny but what we make, no gods no masters, blah blah? I don't know. I'm not sure there would be much else to explore with regards to Destiny's Crossroads, except maybe to have more explicit changes to the canon depicted. Like you wander around in a time-frozen spectacle of Dyne about to fall into the canyon at Corel, or Aerith praying in the City of the Ancients alone -- basically singular moments upon which Destiny might hang, but that haven't happened (?) yet? Something like that would've been visually interesting to be sure, but I'm not sure if a "final dungeon" featuring the Whispers would've actually been any more satisfying. And FWIW I enjoy both reading and responding to effortposts, so thanks for throwing this stuff out there.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:13
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NikkolasKing posted:The earlier comparison to MGS2 was apt. MGS2 being what it was isn't really such an out-there evolution of Metal Gear and it was also really well done. Since FF8 there have been more FFs with time travel/timeline fuckery than not lol
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Apr 20, 2020 21:15
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Mechafunkzilla posted:The idea of "canon" vs. "extended universe" has really poisoned people's brains. They're all just stories. Andrast posted:Yeah if you don't like something you can just not give a poo poo about it, who cares about canon This has been my relationship with stories recently, and it's kind of freeing to stop being such a loving nerd about what's "real" in a work of literal fiction. J.K. Rowling's contentious additions to Harry Potter canon really solidified it for me, and so I've been applying it to everything and have never been happier to ignore bullshit from fans and creators alike.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:19
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Asema posted:showing a different timeline that the main cast does not interact with is not the same as "punching fate to time travel back" Yeah I really think the Zack scene was just "this is an example of another possibility now that the arbiters aren't in control anymore" without having a character explicitly say those exact words. I think Zack is cool and all but I want him to stay dead. If he's suddenly not dead then there's just too much WTF about where the Buster Sword is or how he and Cloud can both have it at the same time.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:24
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Zack left the buster sword with cloud and got caught or something. I really dont think "who has the buster sword?" matters at all.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:26
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Pollyanna posted:Okay, I'm watching Jim Sterling's videos on the game, and I'll admit he has a pretty good viewpoint on the game. watch both of them they are very good. Also the more and more I hear people talk about this game the more and more I just want to bring up Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. The story that is drastically different by design in every iteration from radio show, to book, to game, to movie. All different with maybe similar plot beats. Because not everything needs to be the same.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:27
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Just Andi Now posted:This has been my relationship with stories recently, and it's kind of freeing to stop being such a loving nerd about what's "real" in a work of literal fiction. J.K. Rowling's contentious additions to Harry Potter canon really solidified it for me, and so I've been applying it to everything and have never been happier to ignore bullshit from fans and creators alike. Sometimes it's a more slippery edge than others, though, to be sure. Part of what makes some works feel satisfying and conclusive is the implication of "and then they lived happily ever after!" and in your own head you may not delineate exactly what all that may entail but, loosely, there's a degree of satisfaction in thinking that Han and Leia have kids and adventures, Indiana Jones stayed forever grizzled and handsome and not old in our minds and punched a lot of Nazis, that Neo was going to change things for the better after giving The System a hell of a tell-off via payphone, or whatever. A lot of my favorite sequel works take great pains to not really gently caress with these imagined futures, or doesn't make the invalidation of those endings a sticking point. (Blade Runner 2049 is a good example, I think, and is all-in-all a loving incredible movie.) The reason why Advent Children annoyed me so much was because it felt needless, for starters, and not only invalidated the imagined future you could come up with, it replaced it with a thoroughly detestable Cloud and marginalized every other character from the original to make room for laughably bad Sephiroth retreads. Advent Children doesn't keep me up at night, and other than circumstances like these I tend to just ignore that it exists, but if future installments of fiction you like will be referencing works you are ignoring, or factor them in when characterizing these people you've come to enjoy, it's at least a little bit complicated. That's why I really love what FF7R did w/r/t Cloud's character in particular. He isn't the version of Cloud that somehow became arguably more iconic than the original depiction (morose, miserable, joyless); they wisely tried to capture the spirit of the original, and I think they succeeded with aplomb.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:27
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guts and bolts posted:I don't want to come off as ride or die for the Drum, but it's the scope of what the Drum is that is so striking. It's enormous, and filled with stuff the party lacks the code to interpret, giving the entire affair a sinister edge. It isn't just that Hojo is bad and annoying, it is that this company with seemingly limitless resources has empowered a psychopath to do whatever he wants to whomever he wants, and the results are often terrifying. The scale of it all is staggering. You could trim a few of the party-swaps down and make the chapter much more fluid and retain much more momentum, but I don't agree with people who think you should go directly from Aerith's room to the Jenova/Rufus/Arsenal segment. I also appreciate the effort if not the actual execution in trying to make Red XIII feel like a member of the party while not allowing him to be playable, which is a decision I'm still not sure I fully understand, outside of maybe budget/time constraints. You bringing up Red XIII here did make me want to revisit the Drum and think more about my opinion on it. You're right that it does a lot to make Red XIII feel like an actual member of the party and that could be pretty important to drive home there. I didn't really feel like it added anything to what we already know about Hojo by that point, or at least that it didn't add enough to justify how long it is, but I did really like how much that segment did with Red XIII. guts and bolts posted:I respect your opinion here but disagree about Sephiroth. Seeing him early on (and then not again for a while) establishes that there is a greater scope to the events than what we are seeing play out, and that beyond just Shinra there is some serious poo poo happening. It's a neat juxtaposition considering what it follows: the event that evokes memories (?) of Sephiroth for Cloud is an awful lot of frankly tragic destruction with real human consequence, and Sephiroth is entirely lackadaisical about the whole affair. It also serves to change the dynamic between the two for fans of the original - Sephiroth is acutely aware of who Cloud is, makes no effort to claim he is just a puppet, and in fact insists the very opposite. "I'm the good guy protecting the Planet," he says, "and you're super special to me, Cloud." It's insidious and effective, and as I mentioned earlier, Sephiroth's writing and VA do a pretty good job of making him almost sound sympathetic, or like a changed man. It's seductive! So I actually really like the portrayal of Sephiroth in this. I think Chapter 2 does benefit from having some Sephiroth, but I think it could've accomplished the "greater scope" aspect with just some glimpses of him and flashes there, with Sephiroth's presence slowly building up over time. But I do like Sephiroth's sort of casual but still really obviously manipulative and creepy demeanor and the way he treats Cloud with this sort of twisted pseudo-affection. That much I really like. And maybe weirdly, I really like the actual conversation between Cloud and Sephiroth in Chapter 2--I just wanted it to be later in the game, I guess? guts and bolts posted:I think that perhaps we, as a community, are overthinking/overvaluing the Whispers and Destiny's Crossroads some. I'm not even sure how diegetically important they're supposed to be - maybe, by having them killed here, they'll basically just not come up anymore? Yeah, you could be right about this. To me, I think it depends on how prominent timeline/alternate universe or "we changed history" stuff is going forward. If it's a major part of the story, then I think the Whispers are diegetically extremely important. If it isn't and their role is almost entirely metaphorical, well, I'm confused about what's going on with Zack at the end, but it does make the ending's pacing work a little better for me. I guess that's one of those things we won't know until part 2.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:28
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Harrow posted:You bringing up Red XIII here did make me want to revisit the Drum and think more about my opinion on it. You're right that it does a lot to make Red XIII feel like an actual member of the party and that could be pretty important to drive home there. I didn't really feel like it added anything to what we already know about Hojo by that point, or at least that it didn't add enough to justify how long it is, but I did really like how much that segment did with Red XIII. The animation of Red XIII flipping switches completely justifies The Drum imo
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Apr 20, 2020 21:31
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Xaiter posted:Hey, I LOVE meta-narratives too. Remedy's Control is high on my to-play list because of that poo poo. Seriously, it's a type of storytelling that gets a lot of crap for being too pretentious and up its own rear end, but it's a rad as hell vehicle for discussing stuff like identity and the nature of free will. Apologies, was not meant as an attempt to talk down to you, I did go on to further say that if people aren't willing to give the benefit of the doubt of a handling of this kind of concept by Square, then that's probably where a majority of the difference in opinion lies. Though I may not have been explicit. Everything about this remake gives me faith, and it is faith I don't exactly have much evidence for my beliefs, other than I enjoyed this game, that enough for me think they're going to do something cool and interesting with the new plot elements. FF7 was always a story about identity, which as you yourself stated makes meta narrative an interesting vehicle for a story such as this, including messing with peoples memories of the original game. I don't see this as them trying to retcon FF7 into something it isn't, I see it more about them telling a story about remaking FF7, what it means trying to live up to the legacy of such a beloved game. I try to imagine how daunting it would be, how it must feel, to be given the task of attempting to remake the original game in some fashion. If it were me I feel like I'd have to call attention to the fact that I can't literally make the same game, it's impossible to do so being 23 years removed from the original and times have changed, even if some of the plots in the game are more relevant now than they were in 1997. The main draw of the ending to me is I get to feel like I'm playing FF7 for the first time again because I do not know what is going to happen next. I'm not sure how you would achieve putting that metaphorical genie back in the bottle without taking some huge gambit on changing to plot in ways that is going to surprise players who know the story of the original inside out. The original story gets to exist and inform the story of this one to some degree, but it also gets to take new twists and turns without absolutely having to go up it's own rear end with meta plots out the wazoo, they already blew that load now, as opposed to 3 or 4 games later. Over the years I've seen people have conflicting accounts of what actually happened during certain events of the original game, hell just the other day around release, people around were still speculating on whether cloud just has a mental break at the end of temple of the ancients or whether he explicitly beats the crap out of Aeris. I think both arguments are compelling and it's interesting to me that both interpretations get to exist but that neither have to contradict each other, FF7 was always a story that was open to interpretation on some levels. It's a technologically primitive game where your imagination does a lot of the heavy lifting. Everybody has a different idea of the game they think they remember FF7 being. Does this make sense? I hope you can see my point of view, I'm trying my best to understand you and treat you fairly and make sure I understand your points. I may not be entirely clear in what I'm trying to say, and it may just be that we don't agree as others in the thread have stated, I'd still like to find some way to help bridge the gap between those who mostly liked the game but hated the ending, and everyone who else who liked it.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:31
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Just Andi Now posted:This has been my relationship with stories recently, and it's kind of freeing to stop being such a loving nerd about what's "real" in a work of literal fiction. J.K. Rowling's contentious additions to Harry Potter canon really solidified it for me, and so I've been applying it to everything and have never been happier to ignore bullshit from fans and creators alike. For me, I think the main issue here is actually the game is titled "Remake", so I went in expecting a Remake. The issue isn't "canon vs non-canon". I couldn't give less a poo poo about the canon of the franchise. If they want to tell a whole new FF13 story based on FF7, fine. I'm sure SOMEONE out there wants it and will enjoy it. But not me, I'm not interested. I've already had my rounds on the definition of "Remake" and I'm solidly in a very small minority it seems. So I'll just say I never wanted anything but the actual core FF7 narrative to be updated. I don't care about Crisis Core or Dirge of Cerebeus or Advent Children or any of the extended universe crap. I specifically avoid that stuff because I'm not interested it and I think it's kinda crappy fluff. To each their own. I'm miffed I spent money and invested my time into something that feels like it was designed to trick me. It's a Remake for the first 99%, then they pull the rug out from beneath me and SURPRISE it's actually "a sequel the original game already happened in and is fate and you're struggling against the very fabric of time and space itself to prevent the original story from happening". If they'd just told us on the label it's FF7-2: Cloud Returns, I'd have ignored the game completely because I don't care about the FF7 extended universe/canon garbage. I just wanted to see the original story updated and adapted. The wonky stuff patched over, the weak stuff changed or bolstered with extended material... You know, the thing they were doing for the first 99% of the game?
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Apr 20, 2020 21:35
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I would suggest enjoying your memories of 99% of the remake and then be sad they never finished it, I guess
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Apr 20, 2020 21:37
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Xaiter posted:The wonky stuff patched over, the weak stuff changed or bolstered with extended material... You know, the thing they were doing for the first 99% of the game? See, this is the part that gives me hope that the rest has potential to be good. They nailed the characters, the feeling of the world, all of that, even with the new characters and new areas they added. I wouldn't say I'm "optimistic" (about anything at all, not just this remake in specific), but I will say that I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. What they did in this remake was extremely faithful to the cast, the setting, the tone, etc. and I think that's a good sign for what's to come, even if it's going to be telling a different story than the one we expected. (And really I have no idea how much divergence to expect in the first place.) So much of this remake was a really faithful celebration of Final Fantasy VII so I can't imagine they have any intentions of making GBS threads all over it or even completely throwing out everything we hope to see next. That just doesn't really make sense with how faithful and loving this part of the remake was. In fact I expect we're going to go to every (or nearly every) location from the original and hit a lot of the most important, most memorable plot beats, but probably with some big twists and turns along the way (and maybe a more time-fuckery focused take on Sephiroth and Jenova).
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Apr 20, 2020 21:39
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AnarkiJ posted:The main draw of the ending to me is I get to feel like I'm playing FF7 for the first time again because I do not know what is going to happen next. I'm not sure how you would achieve putting that metaphorical genie back in the bottle without taking some huge gambit on changing to plot in ways that is going to surprise players who know the story of the original inside out. This is what makes me so excited about the sequels. It's like I'm playing FFVII for the first time again. Maybe the new changes will suck or undermine the themes of the original game. Before release, I'd already decided "I'll enjoy this for what it is, not what I think it should be," because I never thought I'd be more than just content with what they came up with, and yet they proved me wrong. That's why I'm looking forward to part 2 so much. Sure it could suck. But what if it doesn't?
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Apr 20, 2020 21:43
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Nobody would buy the idea for a second that they’re changing Aerith’s fate without the time ghosts, now it’s an actually really loving tense thing again. They’ve managed to actually create a scenario where they can recapture that lightning in a bottle of her original death which is an insane accomplishment.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:46
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:I would suggest enjoying your memories of 99% of the remake and then be sad they never finished it, I guess Yeah. That's pretty much where I'm at. We got some of the Remake and then the rest was lost in an unfortunate woodchipper accident. Like the Matrix films, they would have made a couple sequels if some intern didn't drop the negatives into the chipper. Harrow posted:See, this is the part that gives me hope that the rest has potential to be good. They nailed the characters, the feeling of the world, all of that, even with the new characters and new areas they added. I wouldn't say I'm "optimistic" (about anything at all, not just this remake in specific), but I will say that I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. What they did in this remake was extremely faithful to the cast, the setting, the tone, etc. and I think that's a good sign for what's to come, even if it's going to be telling a different story than the one we expected. (And really I have no idea how much divergence to expect in the first place.) I don't see any way you can scale back the conflict once you've established Fate is a force of the universe and can be physically beat up to make it do what you want. I'm sure they'll hit all those beats, but they will be in service to a greater narrative. Like maybe they will try to beat up Fate to save North Corel. But oh no, the time ripples! Unintended changes to the timeline! We have undo it and learn to live with the tragedy and now we can do the original FF7 plot beat here. But it's layered with "some things are inevitable and you can't fix it all" and the point of North Corel's story is completely eclipsed by the meta-narrative and it's now more a discussion of the original vs the new and the nature of free will and destiny.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:46
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The game made it pretty abundantly cleared you killed the arbiters and thus they can’t affect things anymore. I’m not sure why you keep harping on about how everything can now be solved by killing the already dead arbiters again despite people explaining to you that’s not the case.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:50
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Xaiter posted:I'm sure they'll hit all those beats, but they will be in service to a greater narrative. Like maybe they will try to beat up Fate to save North Corel. But oh no, the time ripples! Unintended changes to the timeline! We have undo it and learn to live with the tragedy and now we can do the original FF7 plot beat here. But it's layered with "some things are inevitable and you can't fix it all" and the point of North Corel's story is completely eclipsed by the meta-narrative and it's now more a discussion of the original vs the new and the nature of free will and destiny. Thing is, they can't do that anymore. The Whispers are dead and gone. The only "fate" left is the planet's will, the flow of the lifestream, but there's no more physical arbiter out there to force things to go a certain way. The characters can't go back in time and consciously change the past. Now, if the Whispers were going to prevent them from doing better for North Corel in the future, well, that won't happen anymore. Maybe things can go better this time because the Whispers won't be there to force things to go worse. But they might also go worse! I think you're misinterpreting the ending as "the characters can do this any time they want and freely change history," but that's not what happened by a long shot. They removed the influence of the Whispers. They can't go back and change the past and, if the past did indeed change (and the Zack scene isn't just an alternate timeline), it wasn't a conscious thing they did or can repeat. It's a consequence of the Whispers being gone that things went differently there, but the Whispers can't be re-killed to do it again. They beat up the equivalent of a Weapon (remember, Red XIII describes the Whispers as subservient to the will of the planet, which is also what the Weapons are) and now that thing can no longer force them down a specific path. But it didn't give them magic time travel powers. The past is now fixed. It might be different as a result of removing the influence of the Whispers on it, but, again, you cant re-remove the Whispers' influence. That's done. The important thing about the ending is that the future is no longer fixed. What happens to the characters from here onward could go much better for them (maybe Aerith doesn't die!) or it could go much worse (someone else does, or they can't save North Corel from the Huge Materia train, or any number of other potential disasters). Harrow fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Apr 20, 2020 |
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Apr 20, 2020 21:52
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Realtalk, if they called this game FFVII-2, everyone would be completely confused because the game is literally just FFVII but more for 95% of its runtime.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:53
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They could have called it FF7 Re:Make Directed by Tetsuya Nomura, that probably would have clued FF old heads without giving the game away for everyone else
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Apr 20, 2020 21:55
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I continue to expect the future parts to all have different "Re-" subtitles and one of them (maybe the last one) will definitely be "Reunion"
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Apr 20, 2020 21:57
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Final Fantasy VII Service Pack 1.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:57
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Xaiter posted:I don't see any way you can scale back the conflict once you've established Fate is a force of the universe and can be physically beat up to make it do what you want. But you were ok with them burning the afterlife for power and Sephiroth trolling it for infinite information and power-ups in the original?
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Apr 20, 2020 21:59
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Just Andi Now posted:Realtalk, if they called this game FFVII-2, everyone would be completely confused because the game is literally just FFVII but more for 95% of its runtime. It's the Rebuild of Final Fantasy VII.
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Apr 20, 2020 22:00
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Remake Retell Reunion Rewrite Yes, I'm being optimistic that it will only be four parts.
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Apr 20, 2020 22:00
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RevolverDivider posted:The game made it pretty abundantly cleared you killed the arbiters and thus they can’t affect things anymore. I’m not sure why you keep harping on about how everything can now be solved by killing the already dead arbiters again despite people explaining to you that’s not the case. They're still around when you're fighting Sephiroth? Unless they all died when he died, it seems like they were only set back. But okay, let's say they're defeated. Their defeat allowed our heroes to bring back Biggs and Zach. So... Can they just do anything they want to time now? Cloud can just snap his fingers and alter history to his whim because the ghosts aren't there to prevent his will from altering history? Obviously not, so we're left with either the ghosts are still around (just forced to concede this battle) or a giant ball of FF13 Fate nonsense to explain why defeating the physical manifestation of Fate only allows this one time change where Biggs and Zach come back. Either way, we're no longer telling a story that even slightly resembles the original narrative at all. Calling it a Remake just doesn't seem appropriate. If you essentially need to play the original for the shocking twists to mean anything, I don't think it's fair to say this is a standalone title. And if it can't be a standalone title, how is a remake? I know I'm in the minority here with that opinion, so  .
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Apr 20, 2020 22:02
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Since FF8 there have been more FFs with time travel/timeline fuckery than not lol Reminder that time fuckery was literally in Final Fantasy 1.
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Apr 20, 2020 22:02
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Cloud and friends Remade the timeline, seems appropriate to me
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Apr 20, 2020 22:03
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I mean, I agree that FF8 should have been the game to get this treatment but that's just because I love FF8
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Apr 20, 2020 22:05
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Just Andi Now posted:Remake Rebirth Resolve Remark React Removed Redacted Reinterpret Realised Reality (token VR only entry)
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Apr 20, 2020 22:05
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FF7: REno
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Apr 20, 2020 22:12
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Xaiter posted:They're still around when you're fighting Sephiroth? Unless they all died when he died, it seems like they were only set back. Well, not quite. Think about what the Whispers actually do. When do they actually show up and interfere? They're absent for a lot. They don't really care about the backstory of a lot of things. They also don't really care about detours on the way to the main plot. The Whispers never stopped Cloud from going up to the plate with Jessie in Chapter 4 because, even though that never happened in the original, it didn't change any of the plot in the big picture. They didn't care about Wall Market being completely different because it got us to the same endpoint: Cloud dressed as a woman to rescue Tifa and was dumped into a sewer by Don Corneo. They only interfere when events happen that could derail the plot of FF7. Zack surviving would do that, as would Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie (potentially). Hojo spilling the beans way too early, or Barret dying, would both massively change the overall plot. So those are the things the Whispers prevent. That means killing the Whispers didn't somehow mysteriously only target changing Biggs's and Zack's fates. It only changed those things because those were events the Whispers were directly involved in. If the Whispers didn't do a thing, then killing them doesn't change that thing. That means there's no carte blanche for changing the past--chances are, the Whispers haven't been loving around in our timeline at all until shortly before the beginning of FF7, because that's when Sephiroth/Jenova started trying to manipulate poo poo. So if you're wondering, why can't they just fight the Whispers again and change anything they want about the past? Because a) the Whispers are gone, this change was a one-time thing, and b) the only things that can change because the Whispers are gone are things the Whispers themselves did. Was that even kinda clear? I honestly can't tell if I'm making any sense. Xaiter posted:They're still around when you're fighting Sephiroth? Unless they all died when he died, it seems like they were only set back. Sephiroth appeared to absorb them. Given that they're created by the lifestream and Sephiroth's whole thing is absorbing power from the lifestream, that's pretty much on par with the kind of poo poo he does.
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Apr 20, 2020 22:12
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Mulva posted:But you were ok with them burning the afterlife for power and Sephiroth trolling it for infinite information and power-ups in the original? This... This was the entire grand scope of the original game. It spends the entire game building up to this. It's the central conflict of the story! The resolution of this conflict is the climax of the friggin' tale! I'm saying that the ending of Remake is a bigger, grander scope than THAT. And they only just left Midgar. You can't scale the story back to Sephiroth "only" wants to take over the world and have a globe trotting adventure. That's a massive downgrade in stakes and scope. It's nonsensical. You've either gotta go full FF13 crazy or retcon that stuff out. Otherwise, the whole narrative just wouldn't make a lick of sense if thought about for more than one second. C'mon. You can see what I mean here. One event is literally the finale of an entire game. Other is larger than the former and takes place at the end of Act 1 in a three/four act play. Where do you go after punching out the physical manifestation of fate?
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Apr 20, 2020 22:13
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Xaiter posted:Where do you go after punching out the physical manifestation of fate? sephiroth
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Apr 20, 2020 22:16
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also jenova, and the weapons fate ain’t poo poo
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Apr 20, 2020 22:18
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Blowing up the Death Star was bigger than... not blowing anything up at the end of Empire Strikes Back
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Apr 20, 2020 22:18
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Pollyanna posted:sephiroth Not an empty quote. Considering he is playing you and the whispers the entire game, yeah. He’s a bigger deal.
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Apr 20, 2020 22:19
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