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mila kunis posted:maybe im too dumb to understand anarchism, but if the goal is to have a bunch of autonomous decentralized sub units: congratulations you understand anarchism more than anarchists
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Apr 21, 2020 23:21
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how do you keep one rear end in a top hat and his buddies from owning a bunch of land and means of production without violating the NAP or coercive force or whatever the hell they call it.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:23
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the answer to all those questions is to have something that resembles a coercive state but you don’t call it a state, that way there’s even less accountability
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Apr 21, 2020 23:23
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Lightning Knight posted:isn’t... Huey long the american Huey long? yeah but another one I think in a socialist state the tankies should have to run the coops and the anarchists get to run the state. everyone's miserable; it's perfect.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:24
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mila kunis posted:maybe im too dumb to understand anarchism, but if the goal is to have a bunch of autonomous decentralized sub units: The anarchist ideal is that of the perfectly responsible individual, that person who understand the cost of their existence, the full weight of their consumption, their waste, their ignorance and weighs that cost in equal recognition to every other in their society. It is the ideal, the human we should all dream to to be and to be trying to create. it is not the human we are. I do not hate the anarchist, that would be insane. I simply think they are wrong in the same way that I thought the people that thought a Corbyn government government might bring a socialist society are wrong. There are methods to change society and they are based on the power dynamics of society, not the mighty ideas a section of society might hold but have no power to enforce.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:42
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Anarchists are the libertarians of the left i.e. too dumb for words
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Apr 21, 2020 23:49
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what are libertarian socialists and why dont they call themselves anarchists
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Apr 21, 2020 23:56
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i say swears online posted:what are libertarian socialists and why dont they call themselves anarchists they often do
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Apr 21, 2020 23:57
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states aren't natural or necessary in any way anarchism is an ideal to strive towards not a blueprint or a goal achieved communism is necessarily anarchistic states arose to protect alienated production, private property and the commodity form, things the negation of the negation seeks to undo a large component of the rehabilitation of the species will be the destruction of abstract/hierarchical power lifestylists can be idealistic/cringe but they're less tedious than most of the people whose idea of communism is factionalized circlejerking
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Apr 22, 2020 00:07
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when push comes to shove the factionalized circlejerkers get poo poo done while the idealists sit in the telefónica building and make communication with the aragon front impossible
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Apr 22, 2020 00:09
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Raskolnikov38 posted:when push comes to shove the factionalized circlejerkers get poo poo done while the idealists sit in the telefónica building and make communication with the aragon front impossible tell me of your achievements comrade 
smarxist fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Apr 22, 2020 |
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Apr 22, 2020 00:12
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anyway, i'm doing being pissy, a 'state' in some form will probably be necessary to bring about revolution, i just hope a movement figures its poo poo out and gets going sooner than later before we're all in mass covid / expendable poor person graves
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Apr 22, 2020 00:20
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mila kunis posted:maybe im too dumb to understand anarchism, but if the goal is to have a bunch of autonomous decentralized sub units: you can hear the hisses creeping from inside the alleyways as you attempt to discover who in the hell knows how to make a toaster around here
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Apr 22, 2020 00:27
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smarxist posted:tell me of your achievements comrade Dominated many 64 player bf3/4 servers. No mercy
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Apr 22, 2020 00:27
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smarxist posted:states aren't natural or necessary in any way how do i keep the commune next door from hoarding things at the expense of mine, or one guy within my decentralized sub unit of whatever from hoarding without using coercion, which is a no go in anarchism. what are the actual mechanisms under which anarchist societies do not simply revert to capitalism and warlordism. how do decentralized systems work in global crises
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Apr 22, 2020 00:30
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quote:a pandemic is probably not a great moment to extol the virtues of anarchism because decentralized power among mutually cooperative, democratically-elected communes are, to put it lightly, not as responsive to the wide-ranging demands of such a crisis, compared to the capabilities of a state. quote:Anarchism is not anathema to scaling up production and institutions. Anarchism believes this scaling up does not need the coercion of hierarchies, capital, or the state. quote:Steal the plans for and 3D-print the parts. The bigger question is how to get from here to there.
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Apr 22, 2020 00:31
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mila kunis posted:how do i keep the commune next door from hoarding things at the expense of mine, or one guy within my decentralized sub unit of whatever from hoarding without using coercion, which is a no go in anarchism. how do you stop any of the perceived solutions to these problems (presuming you're angling toward some kind of state answer) from exerting undue influence on your society and reverting the material conditions back to class oriented exploitation? or once established in the aftermath of a revolution, from flaming out and stalling in the task of abolishing class society as we've seen happen dozens of times? the answer to both our problems is a heretofore unseen and unachieved profound realignment of the culture and people inhabiting these societies towards a radically just / humane civilization that uses the bounty of modern industrial/mechanized production to see to the material needs of everyone without the need for wage labor or private property if you're talking pure post-rev only the difference between an anarchist and an ML now is basically just whether you're an optimist or a pessimist w/r/t how much the human species can heal and undo the programmatic illnesses that have been foisted onto us by exploitative conditions of the last thousand+ years
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Apr 22, 2020 00:38
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gradenko_2000 posted:What's an anarchist plan for manufacturing a ventilator? In present society, organizing labor for workers to demand bosses to allow them to build ventilators. so essentially 'the market will decide'
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Apr 22, 2020 00:45
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smarxist posted:tell me of your achievements comrade yeah rask, how many web sites have you made
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Apr 22, 2020 01:06
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guess who's a birthday boy tomorrow
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Apr 22, 2020 01:09
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he's turning 150...
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Apr 22, 2020 01:09
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marxist and socialists have long said that the ultimate end goal is the "withering way of the state" when society is able to govern itself without needing an entity with a monopoly on violence
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Apr 22, 2020 01:09
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Shear Modulus posted:marxist and socialists have long said that the ultimate end goal is the "withering way of the state" when society is able to govern itself without needing an entity with a monopoly on violence * Instrument of class oppression
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Apr 22, 2020 01:12
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stalin was a thug who died making GBS threads himself on the toilet lenin, quite obviously, got owned and trotsky, the true comparison to the Internet Marxist, was bad at minecraft
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Apr 22, 2020 01:16
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smarxist posted:how do you stop any of the perceived solutions to these problems (presuming you're angling toward some kind of state answer) from exerting undue influence on your society and reverting the material conditions back to class oriented exploitation? or once established in the aftermath of a revolution, from flaming out and stalling in the task of abolishing class society as we've seen happen dozens of times? this is a really god demonstration of that Autistic Mercury article about super meme complexes (like Christianity, Libertarianism or Communism) tending toward apocalyptic mythology
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Apr 22, 2020 01:18
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T-man posted:stalin was a thug who died making GBS threads himself on the toilet
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Apr 22, 2020 01:18
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Low T Man
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Apr 22, 2020 01:19
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NotNut posted:this is a really god demonstration of that Autistic Mercury article about super meme complexes (like Christianity, Libertarianism or Communism) tending toward apocalyptic mythology what
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Apr 22, 2020 01:19
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smarxist posted:what "apocalypse" not meaning the end of the world, but just the end of the world as we know it, when the divine mystery (in this case how it is possible for human society to be fully just) will be revealed
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Apr 22, 2020 01:21
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got a link?
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Apr 22, 2020 01:22
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smarxist posted:he was right about socialism in one country being a stupid dead end dictatorship of the proletariat in one county
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Apr 22, 2020 01:23
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smarxist posted:got a link? https://autisticmercury.com/2020/03/09/giant-slaying/ my main disagreement with the article is how naively easy it makes giant-slaying out to be, as if nobody has thought of exposing contradictions or that ideologies haven't built up defenses toward the most common attacks
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Apr 22, 2020 01:23
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i read malatesta and i would characterize it as about a third lenin-but-much-less-rigorous, a third really basic but unobjectionable left-liberal moralizing, and a third full-on republican talking points. he's NOT as impractical or ridiculous as it's easy to assume - he talks about the need for, say, a closed and disciplined organization of doctors and first aid workers who get to decide who joins and exert some sort of command-and-control organization on their internal workings, but just doesn't take the idea far enough or seriously enough to realize that what REALLY needs to be closed and disciplined is the revolutionary party and eventual people's army that destroys capitalism. there's a part where he claims garibaldi's redshirts as his example for why armies "anarchically formed" are superior, but he's talking about the fact that volunteers are going to fight harder than conscripts. we have the red army and people's liberation army as strong examples of how regiments of troops animated by an ideological commitment and national sentiment can overcome imperial shock troops - where has malatesta's anarchic army ever existed, let alone beaten the capitalists? i would say his biggest abstract or theoretical failing is in his conception of the state as an entity in and of itself as opposed to as a tool or machine of the ruling class. he writes about states outgrowing their original parameters, bureaucracies metastasizing and taking over both the rulers and the ruled, or whatever - like there's not just the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, there's the bourgeosie, the proletariat, and The State. and you can see how this feeds into common left-liberal takes about the ussr where oh no, this third thing, the state (or "the bureaucracy" or whatever) grew too powerful in its own right so it must be the problem
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Apr 22, 2020 01:24
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also it uses the term "cultural Marxism" which indicates they don't know what Marxism is, but very few right-wingers do so whatever
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Apr 22, 2020 01:24
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GalacticAcid posted:Low T Man Inshallah
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Apr 22, 2020 01:28
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smarxist posted:the answer to both our problems is a heretofore unseen and unachieved profound realignment of the culture and people inhabiting these societies towards a radically just / humane civilization that uses the bounty of modern industrial/mechanized production to see to the material needs of everyone without the need for wage labor or private property this seems like the project of a socialist society that is not under constant threat of imperialist subversion and invasion, and actually has resources to devote to that realignment of values and culture.
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Apr 22, 2020 04:37
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Atrocious Joe posted:this seems like the project of a socialist society that is not under constant threat of imperialist subversion and invasion, and actually has resources to devote to that realignment of values and culture. *takes giant hit* nah man we can totally do that now
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Apr 22, 2020 04:40
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Raskolnikov38 posted:congratulations you understand anarchism more than anarchists i say swears online posted:what are libertarian socialists and why dont they call themselves anarchists People that want socialism without doing a revolution and like reading Orwell
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Apr 22, 2020 04:44
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its cool that instead of reading the informed opinions of actual pre-2016 socialists and amusing lf posters we now get to read the dumbass posts of an anarchist that doesnt even understand their own ideology
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Apr 22, 2020 04:57
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smarxist posted:he was right about socialism in one country being a stupid dead end It actually saved the world from nazi domination But then America took up the latter’s role anyway lmao
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Apr 22, 2020 05:10
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