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Al-Saqr posted:I love Sonic Adventure with all my heart but you're crazy if you think it controls as good as Mario 64, no it doesnt. full stop. it's jank. i don't think anyone has said "sonic adventure controls as well as mario 64 did"
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Apr 21, 2020 21:07
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Augus posted:I mean that's basically just early Sonic in a nutshell. The trade-off for wild ambition and pushing the boundaries of the technology you're working with is a big pile of jank. Robotnik's deadly speed traps are a thing for a reason. sm64 and crash are both really pushing technical boundaries, both are straining against the hardware at all times. theyre not big piles of jank. and i dont know how much more ambitious of a game you can get than sm64, the game that set the template for most 3d platformers.
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Apr 21, 2020 21:18
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Really, it feels like with Sonic Adventure they just dove into making a 3D sonic without stopping and experimenting and figuring out how Sonic should work in 3D.
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Apr 21, 2020 21:21
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The jank was especially apparent to me at the time in the Amy, Big and Gamma campaigns. I remember thinking Big’s fishing mechanics felt like dogshit compared to the fishing hole in Ocarina of Time.
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Apr 21, 2020 21:21
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Pushing technical boundaries isn't the same as having complex and ambitious level design or gameplay mechanics Mario 64 is a fairly simple game in basically every respect design-wise
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Apr 21, 2020 21:22
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Stux posted:sm64 and crash are both really pushing technical boundaries, both are straining against the hardware at all times. theyre not big piles of jank. mario 64 has a typo in its code that makes the submarine room of dire dire docks run at 10 frames per second and if you lightly brush against a slope you go careening off into the abyss at full speed mario also controls very loosely and imprecisely which is why they made the hit box for jumping on goombas like twice the size of the actual model and moving platforms are the most complex obstacle the game throws at you crash bandicoot has levels upon levels where it forces you to run towards the camera and expects you to do precise platforming over deadly obstacles like this Augus fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 21:23
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Ryan Drummond, look upon what you have wrought
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Apr 21, 2020 21:23
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Augus posted:mario 64 has a typo in its code that makes the submarine room of dire dire docks run at 10 frames per second and if you lightly brush against a slope you go careening off into the abyss at full speed Mario 64 is a broken game after 25 years of people looking for ways to break it but it’s not really noticeable in regular gameplay, while it’s not too hard to just randomly fall through platforms in SA.
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Apr 21, 2020 21:27
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SeANMcBAY posted:Mario 64 is a broken game after 25 years of people looking for ways to break it but it’s not really noticeable in regular gameplay, i dunno i noticed it when I was like 5 I beat Sonic Adventure all on my own with no problem as a kid but for Mario 64 I needed my older brother to do those goddamn bowser throws for me
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Apr 21, 2020 21:29
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The Bowser throws are pretty tough to do but I wouldn’t call that jank.
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Apr 21, 2020 21:31
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Can you accomplish anything with a half A button press in SA1? I think not 
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Apr 21, 2020 21:32
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I can forgive the early 3d sonic games for all their jank, and even love them more for it What I can never forgive is putting the bounce dive action on the same button as the ring dash
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Apr 21, 2020 21:35
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ninjewtsu posted:Pushing technical boundaries isn't the same as having complex and ambitious level design or gameplay mechanics except in the early 90s, when they were developing a new mario for the first 3d consoles, the sm64 design was not simple at all. its very literally groundbreaking and it only appears simple now specifically because they did it so well everyone else copied it. it was a ridiculously ambitious game design at the time. for a much less ambitious design just take crash. its also a technical marvel but in a different way, and its game design is basically "donkey kong but the camera is behind or in front sometimes". Augus posted:mario 64 has a typo in its code that makes the submarine room of dire dire docks run at 10 frames per second and if you lightly brush against a slope you go careening off into the abyss at full speed i didnt say its a perfectly made game but there is a difference between a handful of bugs, which is literally every piece of software ever created, and jank. sm64 is not janky. and he just doesnt lol sm64 controls are absolutely amazing, theyve barely changed for the later marios at all, and the decision to make larger hitboxes to let you just jump on stuff is absolutely the right choice. i have no idea what to say about the platform thing because that such a comical claim i dont think it even deserves a response. and all this basically misses that we are also talking about games with an entire generation of console hardware between them. like its fine if you love sa1. its fine if you like it more than sm64, i dont even particularly like it myself compared to games like crash or banjo. but the stuff youre claiming is complete nonsense.
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Apr 21, 2020 21:38
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Augus posted:run around for a few minutes in Mystic Ruins and tell me what exactly is difficult and unintuitive about the way Sonic controls i hate to do this to you but mystic ruins is not a level, any challenge it has is unintended
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Apr 21, 2020 21:39
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I really wish we had a time machine so everyone can go back and see just what a mind blowing achievement of scale, design and pure mechanical gameplay perfection Mario 64 was in loving 1996. The fact that it did what it did and is still a mechanically fun game until today is a modern miracle. Sonic adventure was great when it came out but it’s cracks quickly started to show in a few years. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 21:41
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Stux posted:theyve barely changed for the later marios at all this is an absolutely absurd claim on its face lmao look you can claim that Sonic Adventure "wasn't even good for its time" all you want but both Adventure games were critically acclaimed on release, they only got bad reviews years later when they were given lovely ports that actively made the games worse. Dabir posted:i hate to do this to you but mystic ruins is not a level, any challenge it has is unintended neither is the garden outside peach's castle but it's applauded as a masterpiece of game design for giving you an open playground to toy around with the character's movement. it's only fair to also compare how Sonic moves in an open playground where the player can just run around. Augus fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 21:44
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Al-Saqr posted:I really wish we had a time machine so everyone can go back and see just what a mind blowing achievement of scale, design and pure mechanical gameplay perfection Mario 64 was in loving 1996. The fact that it did what it did and is still a mechanically fun game until today is a modern miracle. It's easy to brush off now but Mario 64 felt like loving magic at the time. You had to be there at one of those demo kiosks, man.  I'm not trying to dump on SA. I still mostly love it for all it's faults and I'd buy a remaster just for the Chao Garden alone.
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Apr 21, 2020 21:46
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SeANMcBAY posted:It's easy to brush off now but Mario 64 felt like loving magic at the time. You had to be there at one of those demo kiosks, man. Lol for real, I still remember seeing it for the first time at one of those demo stands. My mind was blown when mario jumped into a painting and went to a whole new world. You bet your rear end a Nintendo 64 and a copy of mario 64 went straight to the top of my Christmas list.
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Apr 21, 2020 21:48
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Augus posted:this is an absolutely absurd claim on its face lmao I agree, the later Marios do a great job but the way Mario moves in 64 is Literally Perfect (dunno about odyssey, haven't played it).
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Apr 21, 2020 21:52
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It is worth noting that SA1 came out on the first of next-gen hardware, giving it some wow factor that it might otherwise not have gotten. It was the first time 3D models looked like actual characters instead of a close approximation using a handful of triangles.
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Apr 21, 2020 21:54
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Stink Terios posted:I agree, the later Marios do a great job but the way Mario moves in 64 is Literally Perfect (dunno about odyssey, haven't played it). Sunshine's movement was better imo even though you couldn't long jump
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Apr 21, 2020 21:55
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Stux posted:except in the early 90s, when they were developing a new mario for the first 3d consoles, the sm64 design was not simple at all. its very literally groundbreaking and it only appears simple now specifically because they did it so well everyone else copied it. it was a ridiculously ambitious game design at the time. for a much less ambitious design just take crash. its also a technical marvel but in a different way, and its game design is basically "donkey kong but the camera is behind or in front sometimes". Mario 64 was simple by the necessity of being a groundbreaking 3d platformer but that doesn't make it not simple, nor does it make its design actually secretly more ambitious and complex than the design of games that came slightly later. It's a simple game, and that's part of its charm. The lack of ambition in level design is a feature, it's a much more elegant game than SA1 for sure, and much more well suited to players totally unfamiliar with navigating a virtual 3d space. Whether or not it was pushing the technical limitations of the Nintendo 64 has little bearing on any of this.
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Apr 21, 2020 21:57
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Stink Terios posted:I agree, the later Marios do a great job but the way Mario moves in 64 is Literally Perfect (dunno about odyssey, haven't played it). It's even better.
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Apr 21, 2020 22:00
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Augus posted:this is an absolutely absurd claim on its face lmao i mean i dont really care about reviews, it just wasnt as impressive or polished on release as earlier 3d platformers. thats it really. ninjewtsu posted:Mario 64 was simple by the necessity of being a groundbreaking 3d platformer but that doesn't make it not simple, nor does it make its design actually secretly more ambitious and complex than the design of games that came slightly later. It's a simple game, and that's part of its charm. The lack of ambition in level design is a feature, it's a much more elegant game than SA1 for sure, and much more well suited to players totally unfamiliar with navigating a virtual 3d space. Whether or not it was pushing the technical limitations of the Nintendo 64 has little bearing on any of this. its nothing to do with technical limitations. the idea that the game design of mario 64 is simple is rooted in it existing and becoming standardised, it wasnt a simple concept at the time regardless of technical aspects. the idea of a 3d platformer in itself was complicated and difficult because no one had done it before, and adding large open areas onto t hat was extremely ambitious when there was no familiarity for players or developers with this. they were approaching two novel ideas at the same time and attempting to merge them while having no existing examples to base from. theres a reason that sm64s main contemporary went very linear and very controlled; crash is the game design of a 2d platformer extrapolated into 3d. sm64 is a ridiculously ambitious and complicated game design executed fantastically, while also being technically impressive seperately. ambition and complexity are contextual and temporal, what is ambitious and complicated then is simple now because it has been done and its understood, but that doesnt make what they did simple at all. if you tried telling anyone in 1996 that mario 64 was simple or unambitious you wouldve been laughed out of the room.
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Apr 21, 2020 22:22
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Augus posted:neither is the garden outside peach's castle but it's applauded as a masterpiece of game design for giving you an open playground to toy around with the character's movement. it's only fair to also compare how Sonic moves in an open playground where the player can just run around. Sonic in SA1 certainly does control pretty well in an open environment where you're not punished for his twitchy movement, but the issue is that most of his levels are on rails with bottomless pits. I think if they went all-in on open exploration like in some of these recent 3D Sonic fangames there would be way less complaints about how Sonic's movement feels.
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Apr 21, 2020 22:37
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I love SA1 but seeing Mario64's overlarge hitboxes for stomping on enemies compared unfavorably to a game that automated jumping on enemies completely is pretty wild lol.
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Apr 21, 2020 22:50
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I remember it being really graphically impressive for the time, with big levels and overworlds that were fun to explore. Otherwise, SA1 wasn't that groundbreaking, even by 1998 standards. If you're not in the safe hub world, Sonic controls like rear end and the gameplay has aged poorly. That said, I still had tons of fun with it as a diehard Sega fanboy who didn't know any better (I had a Saturn for the prior generation).
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Apr 21, 2020 22:57
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Mr Phillby posted:I love SA1 but seeing Mario64's overlarge hitboxes for stomping on enemies compared unfavorably to a game that automated jumping on enemies completely is pretty wild lol. I'm just pointing out that both cases are good design compensating for not-so-perfect controls
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Apr 21, 2020 23:53
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Augus posted:I'm just pointing out that both cases are good design compensating for not-so-perfect controls Nah that's more of a case that its inherently more difficult to jump on a specific thing in a 3D space than in 2D. Mario64 also added punching and grabbing as a means to defeat enemies and there's not a lot of enemies that can only be defeated by being hopped on. Overall the controls in Mario 64 are a bit stiff compared to later games but they largely hold up very well. the added acrobatic moves also feel like a natural extension of how Mario controlled in 2D and lend themselves well to exploring 3D environments. Sonic however is twitchy to control and doesn't really capture or elaborate on the ~Momentum Based Gameplay~ of the originals. The homing attack feels automated and is your only real method of defeating enemies. I think sonic is just a much harder game to adapt into 3D than mario, The originals used all kinds of smooth slopes and curves that are a) easier to read from a 2D perspective b) beyond what the dreamcast could manage in a 3D engine. Some things also don't really work in 3D and a faithful version of Sonic that feels good to play in 3D isn't something that's really been solved yet IMO.
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Apr 22, 2020 01:50
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Crash is dogshit
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Apr 22, 2020 04:18
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Sonic Adventure is plagued with artificial difficulty from how hosed up controlling the slippery little poo poo is from the word go, when actual designed difficulty comes into play the game becomes almost completely unfun. I'm just saying, there's a reason people always gush about Emerald Coast and City Escape and not, say, Lost World, Pyramid Cave, Sky Deck or Crazy Gadget.
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Apr 22, 2020 05:33
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:Crash is dogshit
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Apr 22, 2020 05:44
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Apparently a full playthrough of Crash Bandicoot makes the PS1 laser move more times than the laser was lifetime rated for.
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Apr 22, 2020 05:46
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Sonic Adventure is much better than any of the Crash games. I’ll give it that.
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Apr 22, 2020 05:48
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Crash Bandicoot characters feel like they were created for a Taco Bell kids meal extended universe.
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Apr 22, 2020 05:50
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Detective No. 27 posted:Apparently a full playthrough of Crash Bandicoot makes the PS1 laser move more times than the laser was lifetime rated for. Naughty Dog did some Rareware level vodoo to get those games looking like they did as early into the psx's lifespan Crash 1 was.
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Apr 22, 2020 06:30
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Yeah, basically the game was constantly loading / unloading data in order to stay under the PS1's 2MB memory limit (they had 4 bytes to spare) https://www.quora.com/How-did-game-...id=z9ZA&share=1 They also managed to produce a timing bug in the hardware of the PS1 that could wipe your memory card if you pressed buttons on the controller when the game was saving. https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DaveBaggett/20131031/203788/My_Hardest_Bug_Ever.php
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Apr 22, 2020 07:03
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crash is great but its donkey kong not mario or sonic so it doesnt really care if you keep dying and dont win
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Apr 22, 2020 07:18
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Today I learned that apparently Australia is the only place where it's see-guh and not say-ga.  for some reason we just got our own official pronunciation. Even ads the company made used see-guh down here. And when you run a mega drive at 50Hz PAL the Sega noise at the start can sound like see-guh.
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Apr 22, 2020 07:36
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The important thing to put this into perspective is that SA1 came out a year before Donkey Kong 64.
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Apr 22, 2020 07:56
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