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Daikloktos posted:Loki, Rat, and Tiamat were in good with him. They let him know about The Snarl in the first place. The crayon drawings are all wrong, you can't trust anything they depict as the literal truth.
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Apr 18, 2020 06:51
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Are they? I mean they're not the full story, but have they lied?
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Apr 18, 2020 07:35
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From discussions over on GiTP, the crayon drawings are "this is the way the story is being told by the character, not that of an omniscient narrator" markers. This allows things like the Sapphire Guard believing that they were in the second world created, not the second trillionth.
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Apr 18, 2020 07:47
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I've taken the crayon drawings to be somewhere between "distorted truth warped by generations of telephone games" to "outright fabrications." Start of Darkness shows that the crayon drawings can be the latter one.
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Apr 18, 2020 12:45
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Gnoman posted:From discussions over on GiTP, the crayon drawings are "this is the way the story is being told by the character, not that of an omniscient narrator" markers. Gwyneth Palpate posted:Start of Darkness shows that the crayon drawings can be the latter one.
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Apr 18, 2020 17:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:Option 1. Many novels/works of fiction usually present a point where there was a "choice" the protagonist(s) or the villains made which, if they had done it differently might have avoided a lot of heartache down the road. It's a very common story telling device. A "The die is cast" moment that's obvious to the reader and usually has a sombre and solemn tone to it, it doubles also as a form of foreshadowing that things are probably going to go bad and this was the last chance to avert. From a pure narrative device standpoint, I figured we were being shown this as part of the plot recap for the start of a new book. Rich is pretty good about recapping important plot points and character roles at the start of each book for any new reads who grabbed it off a shelf. Here we see get a quick recap on Thor, the dark one, and who their clerics are that’ll be doing the talking. It’s quick confirmation for existing readers that Thor, Dark One, Red Cloak Negationation and Durkons mission are important - and that Minrah was there and follows Thor is still relevant. However, we can probably forget about Hel’s whole thing being a key plot point - because that’s no longer important for new readers to know. I just figured this was standard start-of-book fare rather than necessarily a ‘oh no we’ll come back later to see how this was a mistake’ trope. Noonsaliwah fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 17:21
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Noonsaliwah posted:I just figured this was standard start-of-book fare rather than necessarily a ‘oh no we’ll come back later to see how this was a mistake’ trope. Why not both?
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Apr 18, 2020 17:26
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Raenir Salazar posted:Option 1. Many novels/works of fiction usually present a point where there was a "choice" the protagonist(s) or the villains made which, if they had done it differently might have avoided a lot of heartache down the road. It's a very common story telling device. A "The die is cast" moment that's obvious to the reader and usually has a sombre and solemn tone to it, it doubles also as a form of foreshadowing that things are probably going to go bad and this was the last chance to avert. My favorite is the one in Jingo by Terry Pratchett, where Vimes has to decide whether to chase after his suspect or stay and defend the city against invasion, and he decides to chase his suspect. Which actually ends up being the correct decision, but by a mad coincidence of fate he accidentally grabs the organizer of the Vimes of another universe who made the opposite decision, and he ends up listening to himself and the entire city watch die valiantly against the invaders.
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Apr 18, 2020 18:12
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Earnestly posted:Does anyone else suspect that there is little chance that Rich can answer all the questions (or at least all the questions he wants to answer) in just one book? I've been entertaining the thought that this book ends with the Order failing, perhaps Xykon tosses Roy into the rift a la the end of book 1. Then Rich surprises us with a book 8 where the Order has to escape the rift after learning that The Snarl has created life on its own there. This is what I've thought since we got a glimpse into the rift at the end of the Tarquin arc. Not necessarily the extra book, but isn't there another book planned after this one? But yeah, the crayon stuff in the past may or may not be true. Roy even says The truth is, we don't know WHAT is really going on anymore. Phenotype fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 18:14
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Rich has been pretty adamant that there OotS will be a 7-book story at least since the start of book 5. This will be the last book, but it may very well be the longest. I'm sure we'll eventually get the scoop on what goes on inside the rifts, but I doubt we'll learn that the Snarl was actually benign all along. It didn't just destroy the first world; it has destroyed countless worlds since. Laurin also scried inside the rift and couldn't find any signs of life. Also, logistically, there's not really any way for the Order to go into the Riftworld at this point. Kraagor's Rift is sealed, and if the seal is broken, the gods will destroy the world if the Snarl doesn't get there first. E: Unless there's a bunch of rift stuff that happens before the final confrontation with Team Evil. It's a fair assumption that the paladins aren't dead or unconscious, so the reason they could be MIA is that they're hangin with the denizens of Riftworld already. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 19:25
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Phenotype posted:My favorite is the one in Jingo by Terry Pratchett, where Vimes has to decide whether to chase after his suspect or stay and defend the city against invasion, and he decides to chase his suspect. Which actually ends up being the correct decision, but by a mad coincidence of fate he accidentally grabs the organizer of the Vimes of another universe who made the opposite decision, and he ends up listening to himself and the entire city watch die valiantly against the invaders. the implication that his alternate-universe self got an organizer telling him all about how everything was turning out fine for the other Vimes while he and his crew die is also very good
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Apr 18, 2020 21:19
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Ragnar34 posted:Roy's answer is logical and I'm pretty sure anything else would get them all killed, but I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Redcloak is says something like, "Why would I believe you when you didn't try to tell me this until after you failed to kill us?" "The last time we saw you, you sent a sand elemental to kill us. That was not exactly a sign of friendly relations." quote:That's another problem, really. Roy is trusting the almighty narrative to give them a chance to negotiate. Talking is always a free action, I guess. But if Redcloak gets his throat cut early on by a third party or he's too mad to listen in the middle of the fight, this decision is going to look pretty bad in hindsight. Resurrection spell, and Redcloak would probably accept it because it would at least be some chance to continue to work towards the plan. He can't do that if he stays dead.
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Apr 23, 2020 00:17
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Resurrection spell, and Redcloak would probably accept it because it would at least be some chance to continue to work towards the plan. He can't do that if he stays dead. If/When Redcloak dies, The Dark One is going to be there to accept him into the goblin afterlife. Then TDO is going to shout at him to get the gently caress back to the prime material plane so they can stop the Snarl and get the goblin God an actual foot in the door.
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Apr 23, 2020 08:00
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:"The last time we saw you, you sent a sand elemental to kill us. That was not exactly a sign of friendly relations." Wouldn't that cost him a level though? He needs a level 9 spell slot for Thor's plan to work. Though I suppose he's probably leveled off-screen with all those monsters they've been fighting.
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Apr 23, 2020 08:06
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Staltran posted:Wouldn't that cost him a level though? He needs a level 9 spell slot for Thor's plan to work. Though I suppose he's probably leveled off-screen with all those monsters they've been fighting.
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Apr 23, 2020 09:10
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Yeah, he'd just unlocked level 9 when they were destroying the resistance. Since then I think most of his XP will have been from their time in the tomb, but they've done enough I wouldn't be surprised if he's levelled.
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Apr 23, 2020 09:52
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nimby posted:If/When Redcloak dies, The Dark One is going to be there to accept him into the goblin afterlife. If the dark one knows the truth then Redcloak isn't necessary.
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Apr 23, 2020 11:03
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Rumda posted:If the dark one knows the truth then Redcloak isn't necessary. Is that true, though? The Dark One seems like he'd be very willing to destroy the current world to get one where goblins have a better lot from the start. If he knows but doesn't have an active cleric who can cast ninth level spells, he might shift to demanding that the other gods help him survive until the next world in exchange for agreeing to help them weave the seal for that world. From the perspective of the gods, that's a good deal, but our party would rather save this world.
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Apr 23, 2020 11:40
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MikeJF posted:Yeah, he'd just unlocked level 9 when they were destroying the resistance. Since then I think most of his XP will have been from their time in the tomb, but they've done enough I wouldn't be surprised if he's levelled.
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Apr 23, 2020 12:09
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dmboogie posted:the implication that his alternate-universe self got an organizer telling him all about how everything was turning out fine for the other Vimes while he and his crew die is also very good Oh, crap. I never thought about that before, but you're right. As the city is burning and his Watch is dying, Alternate Vimes would be getting useless snippets of information about the actual reason why the war is happening and how he could have resolved it. Makes me want to hunt down my copy and imagine the last messages Alternate Vimes would be getting. maltesh fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 12:13
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Rumda posted:If the dark one knows the truth then Redcloak isn't necessary. Did I imagine that doing negotiations through a high priest (who must be at a minimum level) is a good way around the quiddity problems that make Snarls? If not then that's a very good reason that Redcloak remains necessary
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Apr 23, 2020 12:59
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They had the Godmoot because they can't risk discussing stuff face to face. If TDO knows what's up he's still going to want a high priest. Though if he did know what's up he'd probably send Redcloak a message to stop loving around with Xykon.
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Apr 23, 2020 13:13
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Xykon's not affiliated with any of the pantheons, so TDO could stomp him without incurring the wrath of any other gods. I'm not sure if Rich would do it that way, but it's a possibility.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:18
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ultrafilter posted:Xykon's not affiliated with any of the pantheons, so TDO could stomp him without incurring the wrath of any other gods. I'm not sure if Rich would do it that way, but it's a possibility. Well would you look at that, the High Priest of Hel position has just changed its laws of succession from "frontarchy" to "epic lich sorcerocracy!" You wouldn't want to enrage a major member of the Northern pantheon by just ganking her high priest out of nowhere, would you?
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Apr 23, 2020 17:35
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AnoHito posted:Well would you look at that, the High Priest of Hel position has just changed its laws of succession from "frontarchy" to "epic lich sorcerocracy!" You wouldn't want to enrage a major member of the Northern pantheon by just ganking her high priest out of nowhere, would you?
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Apr 23, 2020 18:06
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PMush Perfect posted:That would require Xykon accept the position. That's not even a requirement in the real world
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Apr 23, 2020 18:27
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Rumda posted:That's not even a requirement in the real world Faith is a measurable thing in OOTS world though so yeah it is in here?
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Apr 23, 2020 18:30
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Xykon doesn't need faith he knows for a fact they exist
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Apr 23, 2020 18:40
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PMush Perfect posted:That would require Xykon accept the position. He'd probably accept if needed to avoid being smote by a god. "Anything to avoid the great fire below" is one of his lines after all. Also Hel could at that point just say, "yeah keep doing what you're doing, that works for me (since it will result in the destruction of the world)." Probably more persuasively phrased to avoid Xykon getting suspicious, but that's details. This would sever his alliance with Redcloak (the only divine caster of high enough level willing to work with him - he'd definitely have to get Hel's remaining vampire power leveled somehow), but if the Dark One is trying to smite Xykon that's a much less pressing concern. None of this is probably going to happen though, the long awaited final conflict between the Order and Xykon is probably not going to be tied up with a god smiting him from above. Hel getting involved would just drag out the resolution for not that much benefit I'd feel. Yuwe fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 18:40
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Shugojin posted:Faith is a measurable thing in OOTS world though so yeah it is in here? acceptance of a position isn't necessary for a position to be granted
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Apr 23, 2020 19:19
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Toraen posted:He'd probably accept if needed to avoid being smote by a god. "Anything to avoid the great fire below" is one of his lines after all. Also Hel could at that point just say, "yeah keep doing what you're doing, that works for me (since it will result in the destruction of the world)." Probably more persuasively phrased to avoid Xykon getting suspicious, but that's details. This would sever his alliance with Redcloak (the only divine caster of high enough level willing to work with him - he'd definitely have to get Hel's remaining vampire power leveled somehow), but if the Dark One is trying to smite Xykon that's a much less pressing concern. Hel needs the souls. Snarl destroys souls. The goals do not align
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Apr 23, 2020 21:05
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ikanreed posted:Hel needs the souls. Snarl destroys souls. The goals do not align The gods would destroy the world and take in the souls if Xykon succeeded in taking the gate (or if the Order is forced to destroy it). There wouldn't be opportunity for him or the Dark One to actually threaten the gods (they probably wouldn't even let the ritual complete). The Dark One partially expects this and is fine with just having a say at the next world, but is not aware that he is extremely unlikely to survive to the next world's incarnation. Yuwe fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 21:11
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AnoHito posted:Well would you look at that, the High Priest of Hel position has just changed its laws of succession from "frontarchy" to "epic lich sorcerocracy!" You wouldn't want to enrage a major member of the Northern pantheon by just ganking her high priest out of nowhere, would you? The pact between gods to not gently caress with eachother (which I don't think The Dark One is in on, if he even properly knows about it) isn't about not making eachother angry, it's about not creating another snarl with their conflicting god powers. Either that or breaking the rules instantly open you up to all the other gods breaking the rules to gently caress with you, and everybody has enough enemies that it's not worth the stress.
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Apr 24, 2020 06:49
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 I'm pretty sure the rule you can't gank a high priest was just part of the godsmoot, though. Thor was trying to murder Durkon as soon as they passed into the Northern Lands with that storm. Although maybe there are some limitations, since he couldn't just instagib him. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Apr 24, 2020 |
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Apr 24, 2020 06:59
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For a second there I thought he was talking on the phone.
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Apr 24, 2020 07:01
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MikeJF posted:
I think that's more like a "dire warning", like Thor was trying to warn Roy, not smite Nokrud.
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Apr 24, 2020 07:31
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MikeJF posted:Yeah, he'd just unlocked level 9 when they were destroying the resistance. Since then I think most of his XP will have been from their time in the tomb, but they've done enough I wouldn't be surprised if he's levelled. Unless Rich was twisting things against his own rules for some reason he must have, since Xykon mentioned he did and he's epic leveled.
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Apr 24, 2020 09:23
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3.5e D&D has a rule that an encounter gives you no experience if it is too far below or above your level. It is possible, though unlikely that an encounter that gives Xykon XP gives none to anyone else.
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Apr 24, 2020 09:49
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Cuntellectual posted:Unless Rich was twisting things against his own rules for some reason he must have, since Xykon mentioned he did and he's epic leveled. Maybe. Xykon could've been near levelling already. But yeah, it's likely.
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Apr 24, 2020 09:53
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Technically, Xykon didn't say he leveled, just that he gained XP. But sure, given that, and all the doors that probably would be enough to get Redcloak another level.
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Apr 24, 2020 21:31
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