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Ratspeaker posted:Oh neat, so we've managed to find the one protestor who's NOT cool with that. Just lol if you think that dude isn't 100% on board with the Klan and blackface. This is just one of those smooth conservative gotcha moments where they scream hypocrisy because "a hurr hurr hurr they is teh smartz"
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Apr 23, 2020 16:40
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ManBoyChef posted:The stuff that Bernie was advocating is pretty moderate. A common enemy for humanity, so alien squid
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Apr 23, 2020 16:44
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KingNastidon posted:And your fellow citizens are able to do a quick Google search and learn MSNBC is owned by Comcast, one of the most hated companies in the country. They watch the commercials and must realize on some level that the news they're watching is reliant on those advertising dollars. They do not care. Most people are not very savvy or just believe that's how it goes. Killer robot posted:Obama 2008 ran as a bipartisanship elemental, if anything even more centrist than Clinton's. His early presidency mirrored closely too: expanding workplace protections and gay rights, rolling back anti-abortion rules from the Bush administration, and trying to close Guantanamo Bay against bipartisan opposition in Congress. Also the second round of bailouts and two new women in SCOTUS. None of those are dramatic lefty stuff, and some of those were his campaign promises, but the 2010 freakout and Tea Party wave didn't happen because eager 2008 leftists stayed home over a rightward shift. Emphasis mine. If voters are paying such little attention, either because they don’t have time or they don’t care about politics like we do, doesn’t it stand to reason that no ground game in the world can compete with the canvassers that are on your TV every day? If all you saw were Obama speeches, wouldn’t you come away thinking “hope,” “change,” “yes we can” instead of reaching the conclusion that bipartisanship was his main goal? I don’t understand how so many of you can insist “well the voters considered the evidence and made their choice known and I’m sorry but it was the elderly rapist” with a straight face. If that’s true, then we may as well start talking about how to organize society after the apocalypse instead of politics in 2020, because everything is hosed and our country is just one competent fascist away from becoming a world-ending dystopia (or even more of one than it already is). But it isn’t true. Voters weren’t given the opportunity to even hear some of the most compelling factors that have so many folks balking at pulling the lever for Biden. Over and over and over in American history, we’ve seen how yellow journalism works. People aren’t immune to propaganda. So why are you insisting that nobody’s been propagandized? How can you insist that, actually, people are generally bloodthirsty conservatives and they affirmatively chose this hellscape, when you’re people who lived through the loving build up to the Iraq war? I mean come on.
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Apr 23, 2020 16:49
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Start by making an impact at the state and local level. Bernie, for all his talk at building a movement, was poo poo over the past four years at supporting progressive candidates in tough elections.
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Apr 23, 2020 16:51
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ManBoyChef posted:The stuff that Bernie was advocating is pretty moderate. Look at what worked in Virginia: infrastructure, Green planning, increased worker protection and minimum wage, increased Medicaid and health protections, better schools. Most Americans have swallowed whole the Reagan idea that government simply cannot provide solutions competently. Providing effective progressive local and state government opens the idea that larger, more involved government can provide benefits, and is the base for providing progressive national campaigns and leadership.
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Apr 23, 2020 16:55
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rko posted:Emphasis mine. If voters are paying such little attention, either because they don’t have time or they don’t care about politics like we do, doesn’t it stand to reason that no ground game in the world can compete with the canvassers that are on your TV every day? If all you saw were Obama speeches, wouldn’t you come away thinking “hope,” “change,” “yes we can” instead of reaching the conclusion that bipartisanship was his main goal? Because people’s reaction to the propaganda has been “yeah, this makes sense, absolutely in line with what I want to believe” rather than any push-back. It didn’t take a long campaign of constant drumbeating to get Americans to agree to invade Iraq; most of them already supported invading Iraq prior to 9/11. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq Also, you can’t separate out “people don’t believe in a progressive agenda” from “yellow journalism propaganda causes people to not believe in a progressive agenda” if you can’t do anything about yellow journalism until you can pass that progressive agenda.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:01
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To be fair, I think Bernie losing was a combination of the hostile media (and the democratic base's overwhelming trust of them) and also that the dem base are absolutely loving terrified of Trump and wanted to pick the guy seen as the best chance to stop him regardless of who that person is or what they would do in their own administration. Much like how capital is organized nowadays, we have a society that can't see past the next quarter and refuses to really examine what course of action led us to this point. And I don't know how to change that unless our society really starts to collapse.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:01
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It is really weird how liberals can shake their heads at Fox News and lament that a massive corporate propaganda empire continually deceives millions of Americans about reality and propagandizes them into voting against their economic self-interest, then turn around with a straight face and say corporate media has no effect on elections and welp millions of people just organically want Aetna to loot them for all they're worth and then throw them out to die in the street when they start to cost money.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:02
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skeleton warrior posted:Look at what worked in Virginia: infrastructure, Green planning, increased worker protection and minimum wage, increased Medicaid and health protections, better schools. Right. You need to show people how things work at the small scale and then scale it up to the national level, because people's minds have been poisoned for years. You are not going to convince someone who has marinated in right wing media or conservative majority areas that socialism is totally cool for the whole country until you show them that it's totally cool for their area right around them. In a number of areas, national government has ignored the plight of the people constantly for decades, so some politician saying they care and they'll help is not going to get through to them beyond the tribalism that makes them always vote R. If you start showing them at the local level that in fact someone does care, someone can do something, and it does actually work, you'll start to get through to them. This also applies to centrists, who've been marinated in, "well reasoned moderate policy" who maintain the, "as long as everyone is unhappy then compromise has been made" dumb idea. Whereas you can apply the emotional attachment to a number of R voters, the faux intellectual attachment is the thing that's applied to centrists. These are people who like to think they are smart and thinking because something something moderation. If you start showing them at the local level that in fact the "facts" they've clung to are wrong, that things are actually possible, and that the important thing is not some moderation of ideas but intelligent application of ideas (some of which may be initially unpopular with one side!), you'll start to get through to them.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:09
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ManBoyChef posted:The stuff that Bernie was advocating is pretty moderate. People like the ideas. Just about everyone likes the ideas so long as they only apply to white people. The people that don't like the ideas have all the money and own all the media. Realistically the left needs a messaging apparatus that isn't dependent on large corporations with a vested interest in the status quo. Bernie losing was because everyone over 50 is absolutely terrified of the word socialism. The baby boomers still think the system works.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:10
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Feldegast42 posted:To be fair, I think Bernie losing was a combination of the hostile media (and the democratic base's overwhelming trust of them) and also that the dem base are absolutely loving terrified of Trump and wanted to pick the guy seen as the best chance to stop him regardless of who that person is or what they would do in their own administration. Much like how capital is organized nowadays, we have a society that can't see past the next quarter and refuses to really examine what course of action led us to this point. And I don't know how to change that unless our society really starts to collapse. Democratic Primary voters chose Biden over other candidates because that's who they feel best represents their values. They are not as liberal as we are here. We are a minority. VitalSigns posted:It is really weird how liberals can shake their heads at Fox News and lament that a massive corporate propaganda empire continually deceives millions of Americans about reality and propagandizes them into voting against their economic self-interest, then turn around with a straight face and say corporate media has no effect on elections and welp millions of people just organically want Aetna to loot them for all they're worth and then throw them out to die in the street when they start to cost money. We are in our own bubble here. You're assuming that all it takes to deprogram a whole bunch of folks who have lived their lives thinking government is the problem, that the government doing too much is socialism, can be changed overnight with the right candidate. It isn't just a matter of what the news says, or not saying. HelloSailorSign posted:This also applies to centrists, who've been marinated in, "well reasoned moderate policy" who maintain the, "as long as everyone is unhappy then compromise has been made" dumb idea. Whereas you can apply the emotional attachment to a number of R voters, the faux intellectual attachment is the thing that's applied to centrists. These are people who like to think they are smart and thinking because something something moderation. If you start showing them at the local level that in fact the "facts" they've clung to are wrong, that things are actually possible, and that the important thing is not some moderation of ideas but intelligent application of ideas (some of which may be initially unpopular with one side!), you'll start to get through to them. These are really good points.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:11
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skeleton warrior posted:Because people’s reaction to the propaganda has been “yeah, this makes sense, absolutely in line with what I want to believe” rather than any push-back. It didn’t take a long campaign of constant drumbeating to get Americans to agree to invade Iraq; most of them already supported invading Iraq prior to 9/11. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq To Feldegast42’s point, yes, it’s naturally true that propaganda works best when you play on people’s existing fears and biases. Indeed, I’d argue that’s why it took so long for the party to coalesce around Biden—there’s a reason Obama went from telling Joe he “didn’t have to do this” to calling up Amy and Pete and telling them to step aside. The DNC and media tried to get the public interested in every other candidate, and none of them stuck. In any case, yeah, obviously it’s a huge problem. Why do you think I’m so depressed and frustrated? But I don’t see why you’re resisting an effort to look beyond “people don’t believe in a progressive agenda.” From any rational perspective, we have less than a decade to radically overhaul the economy if we want to avoid an actual civilization-ending apocalypse, so in my view, figuring out a path forward that doesn’t die on the rocks of the media or the DNC is pretty much the most important thing to do in politics right now. Which is why I’m very busy posting and feeling sorry for myself, obviously.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:20
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Democrats consistently lost elections since the 1970s whenever they ran on a progressive platform. Which was...almost never. McGovern was only perceived as a far-leftist because of his virulent opposition to staying in Vietnam. Mondale ran a typical post-'68 center-right Democratic campaign, and lost abysmally. When Obama ran as a progressive (although he didn't govern as one), he won handily.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:26
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Doctor Butts posted:Democratic Primary voters chose Biden over other candidates because that's who they feel best represents their values. They are not as liberal as we are here. We are a minority. The majority of Biden voters thought that Biden supports Medicare for all. Leftist policies are really popular with the base, they have just been convinced by the media that they will never ever happen or that the establishment approved candidate actually supports it when they don't (example: Obama).
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Apr 23, 2020 17:30
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Killer robot posted:They do constant airshows all year as it is, 1-2 a week. With those presumably not happening, it's presumably just continuing their already budgeted operations, moving the site from "visible from paying crowd at airport" to "visible from people in town", and saying it's a tribute to medical responders instead. This, plus needing to make sure the Blue Angels pilots get their flight hours, is almost definitely what is happening here. It's stupid and goofy, but it's probably a way to keep themselves running during COVID-19. It would be better for the US in general if they did close down, but that's a separate discussion.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:34
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https://mobile.twitter.com/SashaIngber/status/1253358253074984963quote:Share a Trump tweet, win a point. Share the campaign app with a friend, win 100 points.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:38
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https://twitter.com/CTMirrorPaz/status/1253357245691244545
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Apr 23, 2020 17:38
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rko posted:figuring out a path forward that doesn’t die on the rocks of the media or the DNC is pretty much the most important thing to do in politics right now. Ok, but the point some of us are trying to get across is that it seems too many folks keep reverting to conspiratorial thinking, that the media or the DNC is holding the progressive agenda back because they're simply too entrenched by other interests. I'm not denying that is part of it, but too much of this talk just assumes that our beliefs are widely held by others. We think of ourselves as an invisible majority. We're not. It has been at least 4 decades worth of Democratic voters who grew up in a Reaganite era, who were raised to believe certain things. And, for a very long time, those things seemed to be correct because bad things didn't seem to happen because of it. Or wasn't bad enough for them, personally, to reconsider. And this is NOT just a problem because of boomers. You have early to mid Gen-Xers who also grew up in a mostly great economy and things were awesome for them, too. Later Gen-Xers may have grown up in households where everything was good enough, so was Reagan really all that bad? These are deeply entrenched beliefs that have been supported throughout their lives. I've talked to Democrats (usually older) who are still freaked out about Sanders' ideas. Because it sounds too close to what they were brought up to believe what Socialism is. Since they have no real frame of reference other than 'Socialism Bad', or how other countries have used it to succeed- they just kind of believe we just can't have good things. I have a hippy-ish Aunt that thinks Bill Maher is the bees-knees and was really scared to vote for Sanders but she decided to anyway- because after talking to her friend and myself- she decided that this earth isn't going to be 'hers' much longer- and the folks that will inherit the earth should have a bigger say in the matter than people like her.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:39
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Yeah the Blues and the T-birds train like 4 hours a day 6 days a week anyways so it's pretty easy to just say "hey instead of the desert or the gulf just fly over this city real quick" Of all the things that involve war machines and large cities this is probably the combination that is the least lovely, especially given this administration
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Apr 23, 2020 17:40
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https://twitter.com/mmcauliff/status/1253337622056890372
Dick Trauma fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 17:42
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Majorian posted:Which was...almost never. McGovern was only perceived as a far-leftist because of his virulent opposition to staying in Vietnam. Mondale ran a typical post-'68 center-right Democratic campaign, and lost abysmally. When Obama ran as a progressive (although he didn't govern as one), he won handily. Oh, bullshit, Majorian. Give me any evidence that Mondale ran as a "center-right" candidate. Mondale's entire political career was based upon being the protege of Hubert Humphrey, the guy seen as the progressive standard-bearer for Democrats in the 1950s and 1960s. In his nomination speech, he called for new taxes on all Americans. His platform called for increased regulations and government management of the economy. He called for government provided child care, massive cuts to defense spending, and government-driven research and economic initiatives. In the height of the racist, sexist 80s he called for more spending for African-American colleges, Hispanic colleges, and nominated the first female candidate for VP. He called for expansion of the NEA, development of a national job skills development program, increased unemployment benefits, and to solving homelessness through building new affordable low-income housing. Here's a NY Times article from the time about Mondale trying to swing conservative Democrats to support him (one of those mentioned, John Glenn, ran against him in the primaries). https://www.nytimes.com/1983/11/15/us/mondale-woos-his-party-s-conservative-wing.html Relevant quote: quote:To his supporters, the ''true'' Walter Mondale comes from an old-line Democratic tradition of Senator Humphrey, labor unions, ethnic groups and big-city politics. The failures of the Carter Administration and Mr. Mondale's link to it are brushed aside.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:45
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Majorian posted:Which was...almost never. McGovern was only perceived as a far-leftist because of his virulent opposition to staying in Vietnam. Mondale ran a typical post-'68 center-right Democratic campaign, and lost abysmally. When Obama ran as a progressive (although he didn't govern as one), he won handily. This is not true, at all. Mondale ran a very liberal campaign by 1984 standards. He supported the Equal Rights Amendment, and a freeze on Nuclear Weapons, among others. These were not center-right positions in 1984. Reagan was popular, and painted Mondale as a tax and spend liberal and Reagan was rewarded with the largest electoral win in modern history.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:52
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https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1253325061265620994 I love how she says "just like any business" as though we didn't just hand businesses hundreds of billions of dollars in emergency bailouts
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Apr 23, 2020 17:53
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booseek posted:The current crisis, some fear, could act like an accelerator of history, speeding up a decline in influence of both the United States and Europe. I can't help but see reduced American influence over the world as a net positive for the rest of the world at this point.
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Apr 23, 2020 17:56
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Solaris 2.0 posted:This is not true, at all. Mondale ran a very liberal campaign by 1984 standards. He supported the Equal Rights Amendment, and a freeze on Nuclear Weapons, among others. These were not center-right positions in 1984. ERA was certainly good, but it's not the type of thing we're talking about here. We're talking about left-populist policies like Medicare and Medicaid that benefit American citizens across the board. Indeed, as I said, the Democratic Party's shift to exclusively focusing on social justice issues and away from economic justice issues correlates pretty neatly with the party's fifty-year swan dive in political fortunes. As a big nonproliferation fan, obviously a freeze on nukes appeals to me, but as we know, foreign policy rarely motivates voters unless it's something huge like Vietnam or 9/11.
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Apr 23, 2020 18:00
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 https://twitter.com/reidepstein/status/1253363282334953473 https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1253368962663972870 Dick Trauma fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 18:01
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Slightly worrying that they're getting smarter about that. I mean, most of the Don't Tread on Me types will ignore it, but surprising that they can at least read the room.
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Apr 23, 2020 18:04
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Majorian posted:ERA was certainly good, but it's not the type of thing we're talking about here. We're talking about left-populist policies like Medicare and Medicaid that benefit American citizens across the board. Indeed, as I said, the Democratic Party's shift to exclusively focusing on social justice issues and away from economic justice issues correlates pretty neatly with the party's fifty-year swan dive in political fortunes. Holy loving poo poo, dude, what even is this response You called Mondale "center-right" You apparently equate "center-right" with "progressive on minority and women's issues" You're also implying that being "progressive on minority and women's issues" is bad because it's a distraction from important issues You then declare that Mondale being far-left on foreign policy doesn't matter because Cold War policy didn't motive people in the middle of the Cold War Dude, take the loss, admit you hosed up, and stop digging edit: also Mondale called for expansion of welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, and low-income housing so you're not even correct unless you're trying to make the argument that you can't be a leftist unless you're calling for a new big social program to be invented
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Apr 23, 2020 18:04
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I'd say it's a worse sign that they have to be open about that. Trump blew the doors off, they're not going to go back to hiding it. ed: and don't think 'exclusive focus on social justice' actually means any real justice, kind of the issue is that incrementalism has stopped cold in what it can actually do for women and minorities without tackling material conditions. Hell, even in the 90s black people started realising for all the talk there was no real action and things weren't getting better for them. And that was before Obama oversaw the destruction of 80% of black wealth and the assassination of BLM leaders. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 18:05
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Doctor Butts posted:Ok, but the point some of us are trying to get across is that it seems too many folks keep reverting to conspiratorial thinking, that the media or the DNC is holding the progressive agenda back because they're simply too entrenched by other interests. I'm not denying that is part of it, but too much of this talk just assumes that our beliefs are widely held by others. We think of ourselves as an invisible majority. The point we’ve been trying to make is that it isn’t invisible at all. Biden won among voters who want M4A. In poll after poll, majorities are in favor of policies far to the left of the Democratic establishment. And until South Carolina, Sanders had a significant lead over the field, while Biden was being treated like an also-ran who had been underperforming his polls. Meanwhile, late deciders on Super Tuesday overwhelmingly voted for Biden, even in states where he didn’t do any campaigning at all. How can you conclude anything other than the fact that so-called “earned media” was determinative? That the DNC and the media, working in concert, shut down Sanders’ candidacy with wall-to-wall negative coverage while engineering a historic situation where two candidates who had won more delegates dropped out in favor of the one with less at the same time that Warren stayed in the race despite having no path to victory and a campaign running on fumes and a few well-funded super PACs? Call it “conspiratorial” if you want. It happened right in front of us.
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Apr 23, 2020 18:05
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 From the exact same article:quote:Nonetheless, in his drive for the Democratic Presidential nomination, Mr. Mondale is pressing hard to embrace the conservative wing, whose best known member was Senator Henry M. Jackson of Washington, who died Sept. 1. Aides to Mr. Mondale say that groups such as the coalition are a ''natural constituency'' for him because of his ties to the tradition of Hubert H. Humphrey, the endorsement of his candidacy by the A.F.L.-C.I.O. and his strong support of Israel. skeleton warrior posted:Holy loving poo poo, dude, what even is this response Yes, that's something I definitely said. I'm definitely not commenting on the Democrats racing away from economic justice and left-populism for the past fifty years. e: also at calling a nuclear weapons freeze "far-left foreign policy." By that metric, Reagan negotiating the INF Treaty and START was absolutely Posadist!
Majorian fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 18:07
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Guns are a states rights issue But if we call weed a state right issue everyone seems to go mad
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Apr 23, 2020 18:07
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https://mobile.twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1253367181393485832 Joementum with a salient point for all of us who tend towards seeing time as a flat circle, and feel like we've seen astroturfed conservative "movements" swell into a larger force due to the media ecosystem. There are some reasons to believe that this'll be different, for better and worse. It's also worth noting, as it discusses the tea party rising on the back of attacking both parties and Bush, that Bush left office at 34% approval. For reference, Obama left at 59% and has consistently sat in the mid 50s (+20ish net) on favorability ratings while out of office.
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Apr 23, 2020 18:08
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At this point Democrats like Bush more than Republicans do. It's incredible how they still think they understand Republicans while constantly doing exactly all of the wrong things.
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Apr 23, 2020 18:12
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Love that the dude's gotta put "STATES RIGHTS NOT RACISM!!!" in there. The Wisconsin treasurer, folks.  e: oh, GOP treasurer, not the actual state treasurer. Phew. Ghost Leviathan posted:At this point Democrats like Bush more than Republicans do. I remember twelve years ago my formerly-Republican dad insisting to my ultra-Republican grandpa that George W. Bush was the worst president the U.S. has ever had. Now I have to keep reminding him, "No, dad, Bush was still worse than Trump. You were right the first time. Death tolls! Look at death tolls!" Majorian fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 18:12
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Feldegast42 posted:To be fair, I think Bernie losing was a combination of the hostile media (and the democratic base's overwhelming trust of them) and also that the dem base are absolutely loving terrified of Trump and wanted to pick the guy seen as the best chance to stop him regardless of who that person is or what they would do in their own administration. Much like how capital is organized nowadays, we have a society that can't see past the next quarter and refuses to really examine what course of action led us to this point. And I don't know how to change that unless our society really starts to collapse. Its this. Its hard for people like us that are informed to imagine what it is like to not be informed. The average democratic voter only heard about horrible Bernie bros and the fact Biden is electable. In fact did any of you watch how whoopie goldberg was talking to Bernie? Pretty enraging right? Unfortunately I doubt we will ever get a fair shake in the media and trying to inform people doesnt work because most people don't have the time to invest in getting informed.
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Apr 23, 2020 18:15
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ManBoyChef posted:Its this. Its hard for people like us that are informed to imagine what it is like to not be informed. The average democratic voter only heard about horrible Bernie bros and the fact Biden is electable. In fact did any of you watch how whoopie goldberg was talking to Bernie? Pretty enraging right? Thankfully, cable news is dying with the Boomers, so...yay, demographics is destiny? Please God?
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Apr 23, 2020 18:17
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Doctor Butts posted:Democratic Primary voters chose Biden over other candidates because that's who they feel best represents their values. They are not as liberal as we are here. We are a minority. Bernie's policies are the moderate policies.
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Apr 23, 2020 18:17
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Majorian posted:ERA was certainly good, but it's not the type of thing we're talking about here. We're talking about left-populist policies like Medicare and Medicaid that benefit American citizens across the board. Indeed, as I said, the Democratic Party's shift to exclusively focusing on social justice issues and away from economic justice issues correlates pretty neatly with the party's fifty-year swan dive in political fortunes. equal rights is an economic justice issue you gigantic rear end in a top hat and it does indeed benefit American citizens across the board it's unbelievable you think it's appropriate to anna khachiyan poo poo like this here
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Apr 23, 2020 18:19
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Feldegast42 posted:The majority of Biden voters thought that Biden supports Medicare for all. Leftist policies are really popular with the base, they have just been convinced by the media that they will never ever happen or that the establishment approved candidate actually supports it when they don't (example: Obama). How many times do I have to hear "how are you going to pay for it!?"
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Apr 23, 2020 18:20
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