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the republicans can do nasty poo poo, no question, but all of it is reversible if you, by some miracle, turn dems into an actual left of center party if you stand with the dems now you're done, you're dead in the water, these people don't have a single grateful bone in their body, they're cucks for republicans and attack dogs to the left they will crush whatever is left of the sanders movement and in 4-8-12 years you'll have the same discussions here as today, "we have to vote for cuomo to get a seat at the table! the republicans are worse!" there has to be a point where you say "gently caress off" to lesser-evilism
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Apr 23, 2020 20:53
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volts5000 posted:Get those fuckers out too. Primary them all. But if a Progressive candidate doesn't win, that doesn't mean I'm going to make it easier for fascists to win. You're quite literally playing along with a system that makes the fascists winning inevitable in the long run, just FYI.
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Apr 23, 2020 20:57
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volts5000 posted:Doesn't mean I support him. I'm not donating anything to his campaign. Just means I don't the GOP in charge. blah blah blah yes you are supporting him in the most important way, BY GIVING HIM YOUR VOTE volts5000 posted:I'm not saying Biden would make a dent. It's been consolidating since Carter. I'm simply approaching this as opposition to the GOP, however weak it may be. your approach doesn't work, it's the equivalent of shilling snake oil to sick people volts5000 posted:Get those fuckers out too. Primary them all. But if a Progressive candidate doesn't win, that doesn't mean I'm going to make it easier for fascists to win. your vote for joe biden is making it easier for fascists, because biden won't do poo poo and he will just cement even more the image of the democrats as the incompetent elitist party
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Apr 23, 2020 20:57
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if you vote for biden, you are committing to a material endorsement of biden's candidacy. it is necessarily an act of support joe biden is an old ally of the financial services industry, a ridiculously lucrative sector. he does not give a single poo poo about your 27 dollars that is the whole point of sanders' rejection of big corporate donations
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Apr 23, 2020 21:03
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Somfin posted:To the folks saying that we have to vote for Biden: how much worse of a candidate would he have to be for you to not vote for him? You're clearly comfortable voting for Blue Trump but would you be in here arguing that the loving Jews need to stop complaining, ignore that book he wrote and the speeches he's given, and vote for Blue Hitler? He'd have to be worse than Trump. Voting for president has always been about picking the least bad option for me. I don't think Biden is even close to being as bad as Trump. Like spout nonsense hyperbole all you want, but there are a metric shitton of ways that Biden is better than Trump. We wouldn't be wasting money on a stupid ineffective borderwall with Biden. We wouldn't have a dozen scandals a year that result in firing whistleblowers directly as a result of said whistleblowing. We wouldn't have our biodefense councils disbanded under Biden, and would likely have a much more proactive response to a pandemic. We wouldn't have our postal service starved for money. We wouldn't have our president buddying up to brutal dictators. We might repair our relationship with countries like Canada and Germany. Fewer giant tax cuts for the rich, and more budget oversight. We wouldn't have a president encouraging a foreign country to interfere in our elections. We wouldn't have a president who refers to mexicans as "rapists" or refers to Nazis as "fine people". We wouldn't have a president who committed literal fraud with things like Trump University. Did everyone forget about Hurricane Maria and how terrible our response to that disaster was? How we basically said "gently caress you" to Puerto Rico? How about the way Trump involved almost his entire family in the White House? I think literally every one of those things would have been handled better by almost anyone else. No, I don't think Biden is great, or even very good. I absolutely think he's many times preferable to another 4 years of Trump. Another 4 years in which he doesn't have to worry about getting reelected at the end of. Oh, and don't forget that it's possible for the Republicans to take back the house and keep the senate. In fact, it's unlikely that Democrats can take the senate even if everything goes well for them. Or how about this: AOC's green new deal bill has 99 sponsors in congress. Guess how many are Democrats and how many are Republicans? It wont be hard to guess. The democrats are not great, but there is absolutely a huge difference between the parties and this nonsense of "they're the same" is just straight up dishonest. There's a reason progressives like AOC and Bernie Sanders are saying they are going to vote for Biden despite him supporting very few of their ideas. If he's not a step forward, at least he's a much smaller step back. Apogee15 fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 21:08
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Doctor Jeep posted:the republicans can do nasty poo poo, no question, but all of it is reversible if you, by some miracle, turn dems into an actual left of center party I'm not "standing with them". I know they're poo poo. I just don't want the Republicans in charge. You might be able to survive them. I'm not 100% certain about me and the people I love. Doctor Jeep posted:they will crush whatever is left of the sanders movement and in 4-8-12 years you'll have the same discussions here as today, "we have to vote for cuomo to get a seat at the table! the republicans are worse!" They don't have to be elected to do that. We have to fight to keep the movement going, regardless if the Dems win or lose. Doctor Jeep posted:there has to be a point where you say "gently caress off" to lesser-evilism I agree. But I'm not saying "gently caress off" to any attempts at change. We can't let the Dem party keep going as it is. It needs to be changed.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:10
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The Dems ain't changing. Them burning every bridge they have to their youth vote should tell you that.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:12
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volts5000 posted:I agree. But I'm not saying "gently caress off" to any attempts at change. We can't let the Dem party keep going as it is. It needs to be changed. If after all of this poo poo you still obediently line up to vote for the rapist with a D next to his name then why would they ever let you change the party? You've clearly told them that when push comes to shove you're willing to surrender all leverage and fall in line no matter what.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:14
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V. Illych L. posted:if you vote for biden, you are committing to a material endorsement of biden's candidacy. it is necessarily an act of support Your treating voting like an evangelical treats their virginity. A vote is not some super duper special thing you give to the one you love the most. It's a loving vote. I know who Biden is. I know who Bernie is. That's why I voted for Bernie on Super Tuesday.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:17
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Cerebral Bore posted:If after all of this poo poo you still obediently line up to vote for the rapist with a D next to his name then why would they ever let you change the party? You've clearly told them that when push comes to shove you're willing to surrender all leverage and fall in line no matter what. Volt, Cerebral is correct on this. If you will vote for literally anyone with a D next to their name, you have no leverage at all. If the Democrats can run a senile rapist, and get your unconditional support, they'll take that as proof that they can keep pushing further, keep teaming up with the republicans and exploiting everyone, as long as they aim to be just a little less openly bad. This is how democracy dies. Wealthy liberals enabling fascism, because they prefer it to leftism. Ither posted:*The bold was added by me* That's exactly my point. "Help some people" anywhere, ever, is an incredibly low bar that Joe Biden does his best to limbo under every chance he gets. He actively worked to cement the current exploitative system of student loans, as other effort posts have done a great job documenting. By that same logic, "Trump helps some people" by being incompetent and lazy enough to ignore his advisors when they're clamoring for direct military intervention in Syria and Iran. I mean, if some people somewhere got helped, that's good enough, right? We shouldn't aim any higher? And again, let me re-iterate: this is the best-case scenario. This is Biden's version of making wild promises to help people and lure in voters. What he's saying he'll try to begin working toward. This is before anything else comes up, before any negotiations rip everything apart, before he comes back and says "sorry it's too hard I couldn't". At least Obama said he'd close Guantanamo, until things got hard, so he didn't.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:17
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volts5000 posted:Get those fuckers out too. Primary them all. But if a Progressive candidate doesn't win, that doesn't mean I'm going to make it easier for fascists to win. I hate to break it to you but those primaries are largely a sham due to both a media hostile to left wing candidates, a party that actively suppresses insurgents, and a funding imbalance where the worst people get millions in bribe money. Every once in a while we get a shot to use that system against the powerful like we did with Bernie but most of the time refusing to engage in the two party system (and by extension deny it legitimacy) is the only real lever of power we can pull. At least within the scope of electoralism that is. What you’re seeing now is people realizing that the game is rigged and refusing to play. That doesn’t make them bad people and they are not responsible if the wheels come off and this whole lovely country collapses. It’s the fault of those that actually have money and power for creating, and then protecting, a system that made such a collapse inevitable.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:19
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volts5000 posted:Your treating voting like an evangelical treats their virginity. A vote is not some super duper special thing you give to the one you love the most. It's a loving vote. I know who Biden is. I know who Bernie is. That's why I voted for Bernie on Super Tuesday. i treat voting with all of the gravitas it deserves: as a joke
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Apr 23, 2020 21:22
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^^our democratic leadership is going to steer this ship right into our graves, with their awful climate change policies. We might as well laugh a little before they kill us all.  volts5000 posted:Your treating voting like an evangelical treats their virginity. A vote is not some super duper special thing you give to the one you love the most. It's a loving vote. I know who Biden is. I know who Bernie is. That's why I voted for Bernie on Super Tuesday. By supporting Joe Biden when push comes to shove, you'll be enabling corrupt democratic leadership that works tireless to ensure that a candidate like Bernie will never succeed. Even if it means rigging votes. Even if it means killing voters in Wisconsin, Florida, Illinois, and trying to do the same in Ohio. The road to actual progress starts with kicking out the current democratic leadership (Schumer, Pelosi, and Perez, to name a few). They will strangle any actual leftism in its crib before they concede a single inch of ground. If they lose, they discredit themselves to some extent, and lose some amount of legitimacy. If that happens, the possibility of kicking out those bums remains open. If they win, because their voting base will vote blue no matter who, they'll use that newly-regained legitimacy to secure their ossified third-way politics for another generation.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:22
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volts5000 posted:Your treating voting like an evangelical treats their virginity. A vote is not some super duper special thing you give to the one you love the most. It's a loving vote. I know who Biden is. I know who Bernie is. That's why I voted for Bernie on Super Tuesday. It’s more than that though. Your participation in the system legitimizes it and let’s bad people claim that their bad ideas have popular support. That’s why when people want to fight dictators in countries they live in one of the more common ways they protest is to simply not vote. readingatwork fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 21:25
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I personally will not vote for a rapist. Get around that, volts.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:28
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Fly Molo posted:Volt, Cerebral is correct on this. If you will vote for literally anyone with a D next to their name, you have no leverage at all. If the Democrats can run a senile rapist, and get your unconditional support, they'll take that as proof that they can keep pushing further, keep teaming up with the republicans and exploiting everyone, as long as they aim to be just a little less openly bad. That's why I voted for Bernie. That's why I donated and helped as much as I could. But he didn't win. We lost leverage there. We have to continue finding leverage where we can. I'm not ready to give up and become a doomer like everyone else in this thread. You're right that, if the Democrats continue to be, at the very most, better than fascists, they will not have any long term success. I'm simply saying that, from my point of view, as someone who has lived though a Dem state government and a GOP state government, there is a small positive to not having the GOP in charge. That's it. That's all I'm saying. Voting or not voting for Biden is not going to change the Dems, so lets focus on what will.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:30
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Biden will Eliminate the estate tax.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:32
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volts5000 posted:I'm not "standing with them". I know they're poo poo. I just don't want the Republicans in charge. You might be able to survive them. I'm not 100% certain about me and the people I love. you're giving them your vote, that's standing with them people have been saying the same "keep the fight going" spiel for 50 years and every time they get squashed like bugs, there's a reason for that recognize the pattern, get a clue voting for joe biden is stopping that change you say you want as far as surviving trump and the republicans, that's the problem with you, you think the current crisis is the worst that can happen and that you can only go up from here, while real life keeps proving you wrong you know how that guy cut his own arm off when it got stuck when he was rock climbing, well that's what has to happen here telling dems to gently caress off is a drastic measure but it has to be done or none of the change you're talking about will ever happen
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Apr 23, 2020 21:32
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volts5000 posted:there is a small positive to not having the GOP in charge We've explained how, if the Dems are pushing toward Less Fascist as their identity, this is no longer true
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Apr 23, 2020 21:33
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Somfin posted:We've explained how, if the Dems are pushing toward Less Fascist as their identity, this is no longer true Can we change them without letting the fascists maintain their power?
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Apr 23, 2020 21:36
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volts5000 posted:That's why I voted for Bernie. That's why I donated and helped as much as I could. But he didn't win. We lost leverage there. We have to continue finding leverage where we can. I'm not ready to give up and become a doomer like everyone else in this thread. You're right that, if the Democrats continue to be, at the very most, better than fascists, they will not have any long term success. I'm simply saying that, from my point of view, as someone who has lived though a Dem state government and a GOP state government, there is a small positive to not having the GOP in charge. That's it. That's all I'm saying. despite what you think, people proposing alternatives and not voting blue no matter who aren't "doomers". they're presenting alternatives with reasoning for their decisions and they're not being flippant about it. people have been extremely patient with you in trying to lay out that the democratic party as it stands today, as it has stood in the past, and as it will stand in the future is the most immediate barrier to progressive change in american politics. the democrats are enablers of the republican party, and if you take this to the logical conclusion of the republican party transforming (or the past tense transformed) into an openly fascist party, you have to also recognize that the democratic party are fascist enablers. i'm sorry that you feel like you have no other choice than to vote for biden, but that's a choice that you're making. you've made it very clear that you're tortured over your only option is to pull the lever for team blue in november.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:41
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I gotta leave this thread again. Hillary losing the general in 2016 didn't lead to Bernie winning the primary in 2020. Biden losing in the 2020 general does not mean a progressive will win the 2024 primary. We'll probably get Cuomo in the general, and we'll be having this conversation all over again about how the 2024 fascist candidate will be "survivable". General election voting is not how the Democratic party is changed. The general election is an entirely different animal with an entirely different set of consequences. To change the Democratic party, you vote in the primary, support progressive primary challengers, get involved in local parties, vote for different leadership, keep promoting our agenda, do whatever you can. I'm not going sit on my rear end and hope the DNC sees me sitting on my rear end and gets sad after losing again. That ain't going to loving work!
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Apr 23, 2020 21:45
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volts5000 posted:That ain't going to loving work! Yeah the DNC winning after running Blue Trump will absolutely help convince them to be better though, and not further entrench the people and mindset that put him forward.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:49
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Phone posted:despite what you think, people proposing alternatives and not voting blue no matter who aren't "doomers". they're presenting alternatives with reasoning for their decisions and they're not being flippant about it. people have been extremely patient with you in trying to lay out that the democratic party as it stands today, as it has stood in the past, and as it will stand in the future is the most immediate barrier to progressive change in american politics. the democrats are enablers of the republican party, and if you take this to the logical conclusion of the republican party transforming (or the past tense transformed) into an openly fascist party, you have to also recognize that the democratic party are fascist enablers. Well put. Volt, you're allowing your desire for change to be funneled into a neat little box: 1) Try to support a good leftist in the primary. 2) Vote blue no matter who. This is how the Democrats have successfully snuffed out any actual left-wing challenges for 50+ years. They rig the game at Step #1, then say "well, keep trying, incremental progress is slow in a democracy, better luck next time!" They built the system. They will not allow the system to break their hold on power. If Bernie won? I fully expect they would've hosed him over at the convention, regardless of the rules, and blamed "a few bad apples" who would then resign and go to cushy gigs in the private sector. We're trapped in a system where voting actively legitimizes the ruling elite's ironclad grip on power. When they're sending minorities to the camps, I'm sure the Democrat leadership will wring their hands and say, "well, we tried to follow procedure and filibuster, we did our best. They just had more votes, the American People clearly support them. Vote blue no matter who!" while collecting millions on the side.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:50
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volts5000 posted:Can we change them without letting the fascists maintain their power? No. They’re going to win a few times while the left fights internally. That’s just kind of the lovely situation were in. That sucks but it’s better to have this fight now because I promise you the Republicans are only going to get crazier from here.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:51
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Bidens leftward drift is going great. https://twitter.com/jeneps/status/1253415271743668227?s=20
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Apr 23, 2020 21:52
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Lol its normal republicans vs super republicans. Only Ventura has the cure.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:53
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volts5000 posted:Hillary losing the general in 2016 didn't lead to Bernie winning the primary in 2020. of course not, one lost election won't destroy the neolibs, the party is full of them top to bottom and they're holding the reins but it did create some cracks, and another lost election will create more
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Apr 23, 2020 21:58
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Doctor Jeep posted:of course not, one lost election won't destroy the neolibs, the party is full of them top to bottom and they're holding the reins lol Hillary losing didn't do jack poo poo to the party. If it had been anyone but Trump on the other end losing would have been 100% expected. How often does a dem win after 8 years of a dem presidency? Pretty much never. Biden losing will do nothing either, because in 2024 it will have been 8 years of republican leadership and it'll be the dem's turn again. They'll be able to run pretty much anyone and win.
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Apr 23, 2020 22:15
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I'm absolutely positive that this is a one off thing and not at all a systematic failure https://twitter.com/Gem_Tones/status/1253341447073325056?s=20 Now back to talking about how we have to create a space for Biden to move leftward,
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Apr 23, 2020 22:15
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^^avert your eyes from the exit polls differing from the vote totals, the thumb drives full of votes going missing, the weird accounting errors that kept taking away Bernie delegates in Iowa...Doctor Jeep posted:of course not, one lost election won't destroy the neolibs, the party is full of them top to bottom and they're holding the reins TBH the current Pelosi/Schumer reaction to the coronavirus crisis might lever open a few cracks too. I've been horrified-laughing at how their first reaction to tens of millions unemployed was nothing more than tax credits, until the Republicans began flanking them on the left. Is it awful for the people who are getting crushed while begging for them to help? Yeah, it's absolutely horrific. Does it expose how incompetent, and out of touch they are? Yes, absolutely, and I hope it gives actual leftists room to begin kicking out the bums.
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Apr 23, 2020 22:17
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volts5000 posted:Right, because if the Republicans win, they will obviously welcome us with open arms and certainly won't consolidate the current corporate stranglehold on our government. I'm of the mind that it will be harder for anyone to the left of reagan to win after Biden than win after Trump. I also think that Biden will be successful this time in cutting social security. Take it as you will though.
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Apr 23, 2020 22:18
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Phone posted:the democratic primary is still on going with the ny dems not being able to keep it in their pants for 5 minutes and are trying to actively kick bernie off of the ballot, iowa was not even 3 months ago, the dnc and biden's campaign being like "oh yeah it's safe to vote" in the middle of march was barely 5 weeks ago, the round of voting including wisconsin was 3 weeks ago... Frankly, the Dems lost the "we care about voting rights" argument when they threw ACORN under the bus in a gesture of bipartisanship.
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Apr 23, 2020 22:28
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I managed to pin one Twitter idiot down to saying that if the choice was between a nazi and "a nazi offering healthcare" (his idea) the correct thing to do was vote for the latter There are some broken people out there y'all
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Apr 23, 2020 22:39
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Somfin posted:I managed to pin one Twitter idiot down to saying that if the choice was between a nazi and "a nazi offering healthcare" (his idea) the correct thing to do was vote for the latter The thing that makes me crazy about people that push this logic is that even if you are technically correct it’s insanity to expect anybody else to go along with you. People are not robots. If you hurt them, particularly while pretending to be their friend, they will work against you even if you are the better option. It’s basic human nature an entirely predictable yet liberals always get mad at the voters rather than the leadership making obviously self-destructive decisions out of greed.
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Apr 23, 2020 22:57
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readingatwork posted:The thing that makes me crazy about people that push this logic is that even if you are technically correct it’s insanity to expect anybody else to go along with you. I think it speaks to the effectiveness of the counter-scheduling strategy. The Democrats are so absurdly good at vilifying the Republican party and then promoting themselves as the only alternative. The only way to break the cycle is to attack the power structure of either party, either through infiltration or outright refusal to vote.
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Apr 23, 2020 23:08
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Doctor Jeep posted:the republicans can do nasty poo poo, no question, but all of it is reversible if you, by some miracle, turn dems into an actual left of center party It becomes less and less reversible one 5-4 (or 6-3, 7-2 with time) decision at a time
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Apr 23, 2020 23:11
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volts5000 posted:Doesn't mean I support him. I'm not donating anything to his campaign. Just means I don't the GOP in charge. I don't get this mentality. You've said ITT that Biden's win/loss won't push Dems to the right/left, 4 more years of Trump will be fatally worse than 4 years of Biden for thousands possibly including yourself, and that Trump is a fascist while Biden is resistant to open fascism, even if it's only token resistance. If you believe all that, why are you stopping your support for Biden at only offering a vote and some posts on the internet arguing the need to get him into office? Why wouldn't you support him as much as you'd support Bernie? I'm not trying to say that your arguments are invalid if you aren't willing (or able!) to donate to Biden or volunteer for him, I just don't understand.
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Apr 23, 2020 23:12
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I think there's a time and a place for standing up to the concept of lesser evil-ism and refusing to accept two bad options and that time is not when one of the options is Donald loving Trump. Everything Trump has done, he has done with at least the concept that he has to restrain himself for re-election and pretend to give a poo poo. A victorious Trump wouldn't just be a horrifying endorsement for Trumpism that will reshape politics on a historic level but it will also completely unshackle him from any reason or restraint and empower him in a way that cannot be conceived of. Trump must lose in November.
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Apr 23, 2020 23:18
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Doctor Jeep posted:of course not, one lost election won't destroy the neolibs, the party is full of them top to bottom and they're holding the reins So what I'm hearing from you, and some of the others in this thread, is that Accelerationism is the way to go. That suggests to me that many of are you are either masochistic or privileged. I can only hope that y'all come to your senses or are a tiny, angry minority.
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Apr 23, 2020 23:22
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