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Apogee15 posted:Most democrats do not want to abolish ICE. And, I have discovered time and time again, most democrats have no loving idea what Obama actually did. Let alone Biden. Which is where the dissonance comes from, in (for example) this thread when the actual history of their actions are brought up, and all that comes out is a keening wail the sounds faintly like ~hooooOOOOOOOOoooopechaaaaAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaange~. And occasionally some barking about ORANGEORANGE! ORANGE! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 24, 2020 17:28
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Ague Proof posted:What? From Branko Marcetic's "Yesterday's Man": "Yet it was never enough. Biden’s frenzy over the issue would climb to new, outlandish heights by the end of the decade. In 1989, he suggested the new drug czar could encourage police teams to go into drug-laden neighborhoods and even schools to take on violence. Biden urged him to explore the idea of a vaccine that prevents drug addiction, a fantastical idea that a National Institute on Drug Abuse official warned would likely involve targeting neighborhoods of mostly black kids—and developing a product that would suppress not just the good feeling that resulted from drug use but any sense of enjoyment, so that “it would in effect make life not worth living.”38 Apogee think this is ridiculous but if you look into your heart you know it isn't, we're talking about a government which fed unsuspecting kids radioactive materials in their cornflakes
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Apr 24, 2020 17:29
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Doctor Jeep posted:From Branko Marcetic's "Yesterday's Man": Thank you so much for finding a better source. I was just about to link a Buffalo News article from '89 lamenting that those mean, awful pharmacy companies won't invest in Joe Biden's Miracle Cure for Drug Use idea, just so that there would be SOME context.
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Apr 24, 2020 17:36
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FRINGE posted:And, I have discovered time and time again, most democrats have no loving idea what Obama actually did. Let alone Biden. Hey dude, I caucused for Bernie, I maxed out my contributions for Bernie, I sold Bernie to as many people as I could. I'm not happy about any of this, but it's still better than Trump.
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Apr 24, 2020 17:37
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Scooter_McCabe posted:You're picking a fight where there isn't one, you need to stop doing that TIA. The key difference, as stated by that article, is stating that trump codified separating people instead of just letting it happen as a consequence of capturing and deporting literally every hispanic you can get your hands on. What you said has been consistently trotted out, verbatim, as an unironic defense of the Obama administration's immigration policy for the past 4 years so please forgive me if I misunderstood your intentions  FRINGE posted:And, I have discovered time and time again, most democrats have no loving idea what Obama actually did. Let alone Biden. In fairness, I remember a lot of the awful poo poo either getting no coverage, or the only coverage being Smart Serious People tisk tisking about how whatever Obama is doing is somehow Pragmatic and Important and that if you disagree with how things are being done then you're just Unrealistic or Supporting Terrorism because his Hands are Tied. It's not like the media got -that- much shittier in the past few years. Marxalot fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Apr 24, 2020 |
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Apr 24, 2020 17:38
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I remember a lot of Democrats being upset about Bernie accepting the Joe Rogan endorsement, so I’m kinda surprised there hasn’t been more outrage that Biden is not just accepting the support of Larry Summers but is taking advice from him too. Larry Summers who told a audience in 2005 that it’s possible that women are just inferior to men. That’s one of Biden’s core advisors. And then you get into Summer’s policies and it is obvious that Biden’s running a classically conservative campaign that wants to ensure that under a Biden administration “nothing will change.” That’s not progressive, that’s not even neoliberal, it’s just conservative.
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Apr 24, 2020 17:40
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Trabisnikof posted:I remember a lot of Democrats being upset about Bernie accepting the Joe Rogan endorsement, so I’m kinda surprised there hasn’t been more outrage that Biden is not just accepting the support of Larry Summers but is taking advice from him too. They don't care, they never cared, their intent was only ever to drown you in tedious conversations so they didn't have to talk about why they think you don't deserve health care.
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Apr 24, 2020 17:43
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Also amusing is that prosecutors mysteriously dropped charges against Biden's kids for their drug use, while he was being hailed as the stern face in the war against drugs. Crazy how that works. Also also, Biden continued to push the War on Drugs and the vilification of drug users well past the point it was understood that much of the violence had to do with the War on Drugs itself, and the policies and positions put forth continue to gently caress over our ability to deal with drug use as a problem well into the age of the opioid epidemic. That said, Biden probably would have continued campaigning on the war on drugs if the opportunity for war in the middle east hadn't presented itself, which he was also a long-time advocate of. Also also also, as to the above, that would be the same Larry Summers who said in an interview that inequality may be increasing because 'more people are getting treated how they deserve', yes?
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Apr 24, 2020 17:44
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FRINGE posted:And, I have discovered time and time again, most democrats have no loving idea what Obama actually did. What makes you think they don't know, as opposed to knowing and just not having a problem with it? I'm not typically one to argue that the general public is not incredibly ignorant and misinformed, but it definitely seems to me that a lot of people assume that because they have a problem with something means everyone else would too if only they knew. I think that's not necessarily a good assumption.
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Apr 24, 2020 17:47
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Marxalot posted:The key difference, as stated by that article, is stating that trump codified separating people instead of just letting it happen as a consequence of capturing and deporting literally every hispanic you can get your hands on. What you said has been consistently trotted out, verbatim, as an unironic defense of the Obama administration's immigration policy for the past 4 years so please forgive me if I misunderstood your intentions No worries, our failed immigration policies are a major gripe of mine.
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Apr 24, 2020 17:47
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PeterCat posted:Hey dude, I caucused for Bernie, I maxed out my contributions for Bernie, I sold Bernie to as many people as I could. I'm not happy about any of this, but it's still better than Trump. The drum I am beating is to wake up the people that still, in 2020, think Biden is not a rightwing warmongering criminal, and the ones that think Obama was not a rightwing warmongering assassin fetishist. People should be able to open their eyes, see what they are getting, and stomach it. Marxalot posted:In fairness, I remember a lot of the awful poo poo either getting no coverage, or the only coverage being Smart Serious People tisk tisking about how whatever Obama is doing is somehow Pragmatic and Important and that if you disagree with how things are being done then you're just Unrealistic or Supporting Terrorism because his Hands are Tied. It's not like the media got -that- much shittier in the past few years.
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Apr 24, 2020 17:49
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Shady Amish Terror posted:Also amusing is that prosecutors mysteriously dropped charges against Biden's kids for their drug use, while he was being hailed as the stern face in the war against drugs. Crazy how that works. He's also the same Larry Summers who tried getting racist at Cornel West as a part of some weird PR thing to make it look like he was reigning in the radical blackness of the Harvard African American studies department. West promptly gave Harvard the double bird and left for Princeton. Summers is a loving great guy.
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Apr 24, 2020 17:49
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Willo567 posted:When did the Democrats stick kids in cages or stopped immigration? Obama created the family detention program. When the courts blocked indefinite detention of families, the Obama administration solution was to expedite deportations, restrict access to a lawyer, and do things like make 3 year olds represent themselves in court. Not to mention that this is a silly technicality. Obama ramped way up the detention of unaccompanied minors, and under him ICE would frequently target school bus stops. The difference between Obama and Trump is that Obama's solution to not having indefinite detention was to deny due process and expedite deportations, and Trump's is to detain adults indefinitely (since the law signed by Bill Clinto removed judicial review from immigration decisisons) and separate the children to be assigned to child services (since the courts have blocked the indefinite detention of children but not adults). As for blocking immigration, the only reason DREAMers can't just adjust status and become permanent residents is that Clinton signed IIRIRA, a 1996 law that blocked anyone who has been in the US illegally from applying for a visa or any other legal status. Up until 1996, people who got married, got an employer sponsor, etc, could apply for adjustment of status. Clinton made that impossible and requires DREAMers to leave the country for 10 years before being even eligible to apply. https://twitter.com/ImmCivilRights/status/1008902662828511232 Boywhiz88 posted:I haphazardly caught up to the last 6 pages or so, but HAHAHAHAHAHAHANAHAHA at the guy who brought up Puerto Rico. Part of why PR was so hosed was because of the awful poo poo the Obama administration pushed on it. Debt shenanigans, which tied into stuff w the power grid and gave Trump ammo for poo poo-talk. Yeah. Puerto Rico is under an unelected board with absolute power to dictate spending caps that is permanently made up of 4 people appointed by republicans and 3 people appointed by democrats. Scooter_McCabe posted:https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/sep/13/joe-biden/fact-checking-biden-use-cages-during-obama-adminis/ Both Obama and Trump tried to detain families indefinitely. IIRIRA, signed into law by bill clinton gave the government the power to do indefinite detentions. But the courts blocked that, under the Flores settlement, which said that children (but not adults) cannot be detained indefinitely. The solution that the Obama administration found was to deny access to lawyers and expedite deportations. The solution that Trump has found is to detain the parents and put the children in line for social services. It would be very hard to make a principled argument as to which is more humane.
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Apr 24, 2020 17:50
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FRINGE posted:The drum I am beating is to wake up the people that still, in 2020, think Biden is not a rightwing warmongering criminal, and the ones that think Obama was not a rightwing warmongering assassin fetishist. When was the last time we didn't have a "rightwing warmonger criminal president"?
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Apr 24, 2020 17:52
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Trabisnikof posted:I remember a lot of Democrats being upset about Bernie accepting the Joe Rogan endorsement, so I’m kinda surprised there hasn’t been more outrage that Biden is not just accepting the support of Larry Summers but is taking advice from him too. Summers is also part of the economic (literally, not qanon bs) cabal that crafted the situation that lead to 2008. (Greenspan, Rubens, Summers... i would have to look for the others.) That was with Clintons help and approval. (Barnes tried to warn everyone about this, and she was laughed at. PBS documentary: "The Warning".) Then Obama came in and gave Rubens apprentice (Gheitner) control over Treasury. And then the bank handouts flowed like the rivers of paradise.
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Apr 24, 2020 17:55
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Apogee15 posted:When was the last time we didn't have a "rightwing warmonger criminal president"? Carter was neither one and Trump isnt focused enough to be a warmonger, just a loud mouthed grifter doing shitloads of incidental damage. Speaking of, this was a weird one-off story from a while ago: https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-jimmy-carter-china-war-infrastructure-economy-trade-war-church-1396086 quote:Former President Jimmy Carter told a church congregation this weekend that he had spoken with President Donald Trump about China on Saturday, and said the commander in chief was worried that Beijing had outpaced its global rivals.
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Apr 24, 2020 18:01
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FRINGE posted:Carter was neither one and Trump isnt focused enough to be a warmonger, just a loud mouthed grifter doing shitloads of incidental damage. Carter was a bit of a neolib but I don't know enough of his history to call him a right winger with literally any credibility at all. I know there's a significant number of leftists who blame him for shitloads of union busting but my 1970-80s US history is really shoddy.
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Apr 24, 2020 18:05
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Trabisnikof posted:I remember a lot of Democrats being upset about Bernie accepting the Joe Rogan endorsement, so I’m kinda surprised there hasn’t been more outrage that Biden is not just accepting the support of Larry Summers but is taking advice from him too. Don't lie you're not surprised
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Apr 24, 2020 18:18
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Marxalot posted:Carter was a bit of a neolib but I don't know enough of his history to call him a right winger with literally any credibility at all. I know there's a significant number of leftists who blame him for shitloads of union busting but my 1970-80s US history is really shoddy. I know less about him than the more recent ones, but this is unheard of since his time: quote:Carter believed that previous administrations had erred in allowing the Cold War concerns and Realpolitik to dominate foreign policy. His administration placed a new emphasis on human rights, democratic values, nuclear proliferation, and global poverty. The Carter administration's human rights emphasis was part of a broader, worldwide focus on human rights in the 1970s, as non-governmental organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch became increasingly prominent. He also made Canada like us again.  But he did get caught up in the nato-v-warsaw buildup and (as always) the middle east quagmire.
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Apr 24, 2020 18:27
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FRINGE posted:And, I have discovered time and time again, most democrats have no loving idea what Obama actually did. Let alone Biden. The problem is that most Democrats trust (and almost exclusively rely on) mainstream news sources like MSNBC, WaPo, and NYT and can’t fathom the idea that they might bury inconvenient stories or even outright lie. My parents for example absolutely LOVE Rachel Maddow and it’s very hard to explain to them that she’s in many ways just as dishonest as somebody like Hannity. She’s nice and funny and shares drink recipes so how can she be bad??? E: At least they’re not into Fox News so thank Satan for that at least. readingatwork fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Apr 24, 2020 |
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Apr 24, 2020 18:28
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PeterCat posted:Hey dude, I caucused for Bernie, I maxed out my contributions for Bernie, I sold Bernie to as many people as I could. I'm not happy about any of this, but it's still better than Trump. Then withhold your vote. Show them that what has been happening for the last 50 years is unacceptable to you. or dont. your choice
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Apr 24, 2020 18:31
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ManBoyChef posted:Then withhold your vote. Show them that what has been happening for the last 50 years is unacceptable to you. or dont. your choice I"m certain that me withholding my vote in a red state is going to send a message to either party.
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Apr 24, 2020 18:40
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PeterCat posted:I"m certain that me withholding my vote in a red state is going to send a message to either party. this is an amusing inversion of the normal trope
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Apr 24, 2020 18:42
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ManBoyChef posted:Then withhold your vote. Show them that what has been happening for the last 50 years is unacceptable to you. or dont. your choice Seriously. What’s their motivation to court your vote? You may not give them that sweet grift money, but they got the vote. They receive that rebuttal of public “support.” You know what gives the Democrat head-honchos the finger? A 55/45 blowout with a low Democratic turnout for the presidential election. Vote down ballot for whatever you want, but don’t just fork over the vote.
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Apr 24, 2020 18:46
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Apogee15 posted:When was the last time we didn't have a "rightwing warmonger criminal president"? Not in my lifetime and I'm 37.
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Apr 24, 2020 18:47
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Boywhiz88 posted:Seriously. those ghouls will never get my vote. I'm absolutely with you on this. I look at voting for Biden as me approving of what they are doing. I don't
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Apr 24, 2020 18:48
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Boywhiz88 posted:You know what gives the Democrat head-honchos the finger? Voting them out in your state party convention Trabisnikof posted:I remember a lot of Democrats being upset about Bernie accepting the Joe Rogan endorsement, so I’m kinda surprised there hasn’t been more outrage that Biden is not just accepting the support of Larry Summers but is taking advice from him too. i dunno i'm seeing a pretty good amount of outrage now that it's been pointed out loudly enough
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Apr 24, 2020 18:48
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quote:"There was a feeling that [the White House] needed to show the American public that you believed in enforcement, and that [we weren’t pushing for] open borders. But in hindsight I was like, what did we get for that? We deported more people than ever before. All these families separated, and Republicans didn’t give him one ounce of credit. There may as well have been open borders for five years." https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/03/the-obama-boys
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Apr 24, 2020 19:08
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https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1253739593104588800?s=19 Well holy poo poo. Reades mom might have talked about the Biden assault on Larry King in the 90s. This would prove she has been talking about the story for a long time.
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Apr 24, 2020 19:13
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readingatwork posted:One legitimate point in Biden's favor is that day he told the press the Obama administration supported gay marriage (they did not at the time, he was full of poo poo). He essentially forced Obama to finally fully embrace gay rights and may inadvertently be the one most responsible for the tone shift that happened on the topic in the 10's which later paved the way for the courts to legalize gay marriage. I really think that was just something he said to appeal to some voters. I mean, lgbtq are mostly democrats as near as I could tell, and he was running right after bush so I think he figured that he could get away with it. It sounds like I'm giving him too much credit but I think he's just ambivalent about the whole thing tbh.
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Apr 24, 2020 19:15
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I will probably be an overthinking dumbass my entire life, doomed to endlessly triangulate and waver and weigh, but goddamn, Biden is several bridges of poo poo too far. I can't justify voting to give power over others to a rapist. An electoral competition between two of them is a loving non-choice. I can't justify voting for the candidate who tells the marginalized and vulnerable to suck it up and deal because he has no empathy for them. I can't justify voting for the candidate who spent his entire life creating the tools and institutions of oppression now being used by his opponent. I can't justify voting for the candidate who fought against his own party to seat conservative judges. I can't justify voting for one of the principal architects of student debt enslavement, of the War on Drugs, of the forever-wars in the middle east. Joe Biden is one of the biggest reasons we have Trump in the first place. He opposed integration, eulogized Strom Thurmond, normalized police overreach, and his entire career right up into his campaign has talked about cutting away social safety nets. Joe Biden is almost certainly responsible for more deaths and more ruined lives than Trump could ever be, because Trump doesn't have the dedication to devote his entire life to it the way Joe has. Whether Joe gets the nomination because voters like him, or don't know him, or don't care, or because the DNC outright rigged the results (and probably some combination of all of these are important), I cannot justify voting for him. I'm kind of disgusted by the illusion of the charming 'Diamond Joe', by the fact that I once didn't know how deep his personal shittiness extended, and by the fact that a loving Onion parody has apparently become his face in the minds of many. gently caress hellworld
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Apr 24, 2020 19:15
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ManBoyChef posted:those ghouls will never get my vote. I'm absolutely with you on this. I look at voting for Biden as me approving of what they are doing. I don't For sure. I was more agreeing w/ you and addressing PeterCat.
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Apr 24, 2020 19:18
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Rainbow Knight posted:I really think that was just something he said to appeal to some voters. I mean, lgbtq are mostly democrats as near as I could tell, and he was running right after bush so I think he figured that he could get away with it. It sounds like I'm giving him too much credit but I think he's just ambivalent about the whole thing tbh. Oh yeah let me be clear here. It was something he just said in the moment for some quick praise, not some Machiavellian masterstroke. A gaffe basically. The Obama administration actually walked the statement back for a bit before realizing that they’d look like huge assholes for doing that and just going with it.
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Apr 24, 2020 19:21
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How are you going to guilt anyone into voting Biden when his campaign thinks it's acceptable to hire Summers as an advisor?
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Apr 24, 2020 19:21
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Groovelord Neato posted:How are you going to guilt anyone into voting Biden when his campaign thinks it's acceptable to hire Summers as an advisor? "there's a dang cheeto in the white house!"
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Apr 24, 2020 19:35
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Intercept is running with the new info on Biden rape https://theintercept.com/2020/04/24/new-evidence-tara-reade-joe-biden
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Apr 24, 2020 20:09
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Apogee15 posted:Most democrats do not want to abolish ICE. Most democrats actually approved of Obama's actions in Libya. Most democrats think the ACA was good legislation(like 94%). Most democrats would prefer a public option(though it's close) to M4A. How many Democrats interpret "abolish ICE" as "enforce immigration laws"? How many Democrats are even aware of Obama's action in Libya, and could explain what happened? Most Democrats (and even people in this forum) would say that the ACA getting rid of pre-existing condition restrictions in health insurance was good, but I'd bet most voters would be hard pressed to articulate anything positive ACA did beyond that. Voters aren't economic hypotheticals who have perfect information and pick candidates that most closely align with their own beliefs. Even if you took that polling at face value, the fact is voters don't pull the lever for their ideologically closest candidate.
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Apr 24, 2020 20:30
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ManBoyChef posted:
I have $100,000+ in student loan debt, I have $10,000 in credit card debt. I graduated college at the beginning of the Great Recession and last year started a job where I was making the most I have ever made at about $30,000/year. I was laid off because of this pandemic a month ago. I haven't had health insurance since I was 26 except for 1 year on Michigan Medicaid (possible because of the Obamacare Medicaid expansion, thanks Obama!) which was incredible, but I don't have it any longer. I could never dream of owning a house, no idea what I'll do if my hand-me-down car from my dead grandparents dies on me, have no savings, I'm unemployed for however long this pandemic lasts. I'm luckier than many because my partner has a steady job (so far) so we're not in imminent danger of being out on the street and I don't have life threatening chronic health problems on top of everything else. I wanted Bernie to win so badly. For a moment in January I even began to think it could happen. I'll be voting for whoever is (D) in November because whoever that is is going to be infinitely better for me and a hundred million other Americans than mother loving Donald J Trump.
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Apr 24, 2020 20:52
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How are u posted:I haven't had health insurance since I was 26 except for 1 year on Michigan Medicaid (possible because of the Obamacare Medicaid expansion, thanks Obama!) which was incredible, but I don't have it any longer. I think this is the most important part of your entire post. This is the soul of incrementalism, to make small, minor changes that only function as to create short term stability at the cost of long term fragility. It is directly because of the Democrats' failure to significantly reform medical care that people are literally dying of insulin rationing.
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Apr 24, 2020 21:02
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How are u posted:I have $100,000+ in student loan debt, I have $10,000 in credit card debt. I graduated college at the beginning of the Great Recession and last year started a job where I was making the most I have ever made at about $30,000/year. I was laid off because of this pandemic a month ago. I haven't had health insurance since I was 26 except for 1 year on Michigan Medicaid (possible because of the Obamacare Medicaid expansion, thanks Obama!) which was incredible, but I don't have it any longer. check out your resumed eligibility for medicaid and/or your eligibility for ACA subsidies, because if you're in an expanded Medicaid state you're eligible for one or the other, unless your partner Makes Too Much Money and you're legally enough attached to them this goes for everybody who is below 400% of the federal poverty line, btw
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Apr 24, 2020 21:15
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