|
hyphz posted:[Sitting in the corner, looking at a group happily playing a game they're fine with] The dickish part was not just going "we're not really feeling Strike, want to play some board games instead?" at the start. Anyway, this is a bit of a side track, sorry.
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 16:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 18:24 |
|
|
In the same vein, in the game of this forum, it doesn't matter whether hyphz is neurologically atypical, a non-native speaker, arguing in bad faith, encountering a severe mental block, or a jerk/troll. Forums user hyphz isn't going to read the book or understand AW through internet posts.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 16:28
|
|
|
Which is why we should get back to unraveling Wisher, Theurge, Fatalist, because it won’t have any less effect than the conversation so far and will be pleasingly bizarre.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 16:41
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Hang on, so I do have to have exact measures for everything because if the players ask I can’t not tell them? Like, you’re saying I should ask them why they want to know, but that’s ultimately a way of not telling them the measurement, and now I have to do that because I can’t hide that information? RE LE VANT. You do not need to specify the exact measurement because the exact distance is not relevant. You know how I can tell that it's not relevant? Because Apocalypse World does not make use of the exact measurements when resolving stuff. In fact, you don't need to specify the exact measurement in an absolute shitton of RPGs! I am not surprised you run into a lot of players who get super-psyched about precise measurement because that is a thing in wargaming, but I would say it is actually exceptional in RPGs, especially in more modern systems. Regardless of what the player's plan as they enunciate it to you is, the size of the thing is either "of a size where the plan would definitely work no problem", "of a size where the plan clearly won't work", or "of a size where it's not clear so you roll the dice". This all follows on from the PbtA insistence on following the fiction, and choosing a move which follows on from the fiction. Respecting the fiction means that if the size of the thing makes the plan completely unchallenging ("Can I, a person of average size, fit through this standard-sized door?" or completely inappropriate ("OK, so can I, a normal sized human, fit through this standard-sized mousehole?). The remaining option is what the moves cover. That's it! That's all you need to know and all the player needs to know. Additional detail is NOT RELEVANT and you do not need to be distracted by it. Warthur fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Apr 25, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 17:02
|
|
|
hyphz posted:I have read that bit. But the book saying its valid doesnt stop the player thinking its a cop-out, going silent for a long period, or making decisions purely to grant their character advantage. If I'm playing a game and I ask a question, I'd rather get 'What are you looking to do?' than 'That's not written in the module, so I can't tell you.' In fact, I'd prefer that to an exact measurement of the physical space, because that doesn't really tell me what I can or can't do within the fiction of the game.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 17:32
|
|
|
Joe Slowboat posted:I mean, nothing about this scenario says they aren’t. And it doesn’t sound like you’re playing games happily or the games you want to play, or else you’d stop arguing with strangers online about how AW has internal contradictions. I don't know. I'm increasingly frustrated with PF2e because of how much it bogs down. Running CFA was a blast, but it took like 5 years for it to happen because it's so niche. But I guess now I've done that I can just declare I've done my thing? Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that if I'm the one wanting to do an unusual game, criticising the group for their response to it isn't going to achieve anything.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 19:29
|
|
|
hyphz posted:And if the answer is to get mad and tell them they’re being an rear end, well, fine, I can think what an rear end they are on the way home (or off the server). The rest of the group has their D&D books just on the next table and that has distances. hyphz, do you and your groups play with miniatures, or counters, or any other visual representation of where everyone is? If so, I want you to do an exercise: play or run a game where there is none of that. No minis, no Roll20 whiteboard, nothing but 100% pure theatre of the mind. You will want to pick a system that supports this well; Apocalypse World is just fine. The reason wargamers may care a lot about exact measurements is that they are used to exact measurements being important in a game, and measuring the distance between minis. Remove the visual stuff and you send the message that you are running a game where exact measurements are not only unnecessary but unfeasible.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 20:08
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that if I'm the one wanting to do an unusual game, criticising the group for their response to it isn't going to achieve anything. sort of at the core of what they were saying is that you are also a member of the group and fair enough if no one wants to play a game with you, but it's a lovely move to agree to play a game w/ you and then sabotage it willfully or otherwise. If these people are supposed to be your friends, I mean, I'd be p annoyed if I asked everyone if they'd like to play a game, and they all agreed, and I set it up and did all the prelim work only to have them make it a miserable experience for me. If playing the kinds of games everyone is describing is something you want to do, and you're willing to suspend all these worries for a session and Read The Book, either your group is gonna have to stop being dicks about it, or you're gonna have to find a group willing to engage in the games as they are designed. No advice anyone gives you here is gonna help if the people you're playing with keep demanding you doing things that are at odds with A) fun and B) the actual workings of the games in question
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 20:16
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that if I'm the one wanting to do an unusual game, criticising the group for their response to it isn't going to achieve anything.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 20:22
|
|
|
Warthur posted:hyphz, do you and your groups play with miniatures, or counters, or any other visual representation of where everyone is? If so, I want you to do an exercise: play or run a game where there is none of that. No minis, no Roll20 whiteboard, nothing but 100% pure theatre of the mind. You will want to pick a system that supports this well; Apocalypse World is just fine. The main group plays with miniatures (or roll20 at the moment); it's more or less mandatory for PF2e because of the importance of positioning and AoOs to one of the characters. I don't have any other regular group. We did play Feng Shui (I didn't GM that) without any miniatures or positioning but the effect of that was that, as I mentioned, visualisation kind of collapsed and fights tended to come down to bare rolls.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 20:36
|
|
|
Warthur posted:I dunno, if we broke through your wall of denial and made you realise that the way your group treats you is not normal, not friendly, and is in fact astonishingly disrespectful, and you deserve to have friends who treat you like actual friends, I think we'll have accomplished something pretty wonderful. Something I have learned plenty of times online is that there is no deserving (aka entitlement) when it comes to friends or anything else social. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 20:37
|
|
|
you are in fact entitled to your friends treating you with respect and making good faith attempts to enjoy activities they have agreed to do with you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 20:41
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Something I have learned plenty of times online is that there is no deserving (aka entitlement) when it comes to friends or anything else social. You realize that applies to them too, right? You don’t owe them your time or energy when they just throw it back in your face. Also? People are in fact entitled to the baseline of decent behavior from others. If your friends don’t treat you like a friend, they are not your friends. You can’t force them to be your friends but you can stop giving them your time, concern, and work to make the games they want to play happen while you grit your teeth and try to flinch away from their terrible RPG decisions before it happens. Go back to that CFA group you actually had fun with and ask if they would play it again, and maybe develop toward playing dark comedy Spire followed by serious Spire. Or any other system that doesn’t involve getting exploited by your terrible non-friends until they come to you and ask politely for you to run something, at which point you discuss like rational adults what kind of game will make you all happy.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 20:42
|
|
|
Joe Slowboat posted:You realize that applies to them too, right? You don’t owe them your time or energy when they just throw it back in your face. Also? People are in fact entitled to the baseline of decent behavior from others. If your friends don’t treat you like a friend, they are not your friends. You can’t force them to be your friends but you can stop giving them your time, concern, and work to make the games they want to play happen while you grit your teeth and try to flinch away from their terrible RPG decisions before it happens. There's an implication here that because they're negative about gaming, they're also bad friends elsewhere, and that's not the case. The attitude to gaming is partly because I think many of them are grognards, one or two are borderline zilchplayers and many are showing signs of depression, as few had their lives go the way they were supposed to. Plus, I've learned a long while ago that I don't have the qualities necessary to lead group decisions: what happened with Strike is just a more direct version of what's happened with several other groups, offline and on, where mentions about running a game were squelched or disregarded by various means (the same happens with board games too) quote:Go back to that CFA group you actually had fun with and ask if they would play it again, and maybe develop toward playing dark comedy Spire followed by serious Spire. Or any other system that doesn’t involve getting exploited by your terrible non-friends until they come to you and ask politely for you to run something, at which point you discuss like rational adults what kind of game will make you all happy. The CFA group wasn't a regular group, it was a one-off thing from a Discord, and I believe they have now moved on to playing 5e amongst themselves (not out of ill will, there was a public invite). In any case, there's only one "normal" playset for CFA, and if I could make stuff up everything would be a whole lot easier.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 22:08
|
|
|
I have a friend group that I love, and I introduced them to games. They were/are my primary group for playing RPGs and I enjoyed their company but slowly, over the years, what they wanted from games (A sort of structured place to just shoot the poo poo and gently caress around) and what I wanted from games (collaborative storytelling with a degree of narrative buy-in from everyone) kinda slipped further and further away from each other. I started resenting them and being frustrated and tired after every game. In a lot of ways they were being bad friends - they'd derail adventures or ask me to do a ton of work for something and then ignore it, or get upset with me personally when their characters failed to do x or had a consequence for doing y - and I kinda did get heated about it. I tried different kinds of games and settings and GM approaches but nothing worked till I realized the solution was to just start playing board games, watching movies, playing video games etc during those hangout times and start a new group with new friends. And I mean its not like this new group is perfect truth be told but its a step to fixing the problem. Are you happy running the kind of games your party likes for your group? If yes, then I don't know why this thread exists. but if you're not happy, and you've already tried other games, and you can't find a middle ground where everyone is happy I mean not every activity is for every group.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 22:22
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Something I have learned plenty of times online is that there is no deserving (aka entitlement) when it comes to friends or anything else social. This cuts both ways. The time, labor, and emotional labor you put into games is something that people don't have a right to, either. I get that this is a rather speedy thread and you have a lot of responses coming at you, but in light of this I am a bit curious in regards to a question I asked earlier: Are you having fun with the people with which you're playing tabletop? Are they all-in on the gentleman's agreement and not playing solely to ruin the session as some e-penis measuring contest? If not, then why play D&D when you can play Warcraft? What are you getting out of these tabletop sessions that makes you play them and not the myriad other games out there? Libertad! fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Apr 25, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2020 22:35
|
|
|
Nemesis Of Moles posted:Are you happy running the kind of games your party likes for your group? Well, it exists for general philosophy of RPGs (and I did end up with a question about that after last session, in which I learned that PF2 and heists don't go together well) I'm not unhappy with the group I have, but I want to have the option to play other games as well. I'm trying to work out ways to make PF2e less tedious to run online at least. I don't play video games with them because they don't play them together, and they don't want to play board games online.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 00:01
|
|
|
Whoa hold the loving horses. This is an online group? These are people you get together with over the internet, not locals? The gently caress? Find a new group that wants to play the game you want to play hyphz. Use the recruitment thread on this very forum.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 00:15
|
|
|
Mr. Prokosch posted:Whoa hold the loving horses. This is an online group? These are people you get together with over the internet, not locals? The gently caress? Find a new group that wants to play the game you want to play hyphz. Use the recruitment thread on this very forum. They could have been local prior to social distancing/quarantine?
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 00:16
|
|
|
Mr. Prokosch posted:Whoa hold the loving horses. This is an online group? These are people you get together with over the internet, not locals? The gently caress? Find a new group that wants to play the game you want to play hyphz. Use the recruitment thread on this very forum. Yeah I assumed this was a long time close knit group of irl friends and Hyphz just didn't want to switch to online gaming poo poo I'd play in the game with Hyphz, whatever it was. I'm really new to narrative based games myself and would love to learn alongside him
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 01:22
|
|
|
Opening scene, a massive car chase in the desert, explosions everywhere. Fist fights on top of trucks. Cars smashing together and ramping off dunes and dudes flying off and getting left behind or run over, zoom in on a desperate struggle for control of the steering wheel of the last V8, the participants are a mohawk'd dude with a broken off harpoon buried in his shoulder, and Hyphz' character Measure Max. Max, what do you do? Hyphz: What's the distance from my own center of mass to the inside second-from-rearmost wheel of the third biggest truck? I get out my calipers if I have to.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 01:47
|
|
|
Hyphz, I will gladly run a game of AW for you and some other people in this thread over Discord (preferably with voice chat but whatevs) to show you how it goes. I will also gladly accept The Spire, Blades in the Dark, Dungeon World and some other games that aren't jumping out at me via glancing at my bookshelf quickly. I'm Eastern US time but I'm pretty flexible so I can work with you (I think?) being GMT. Anyone else interested?
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:09
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:Hyphz, I will gladly run a game of AW for you and some other people in this thread over Discord (preferably with voice chat but whatevs) to show you how it goes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:13
|
|
|
I really want to see how that plays out but our time zones are 12ish hours apart so I can't see it working. Unless you've figured out asynchronous pbta in which case I need to know how you did it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:28
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun played in an AW one-shot I ran a couple of weeks ago. I can confirm he is both solid and cool. I would happily play in a game he ran. EDIT: Elector_Nerdlingen posted:I really want to see how that plays out but our time zones are 12ish hours apart so I can't see it working. Ilor fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Apr 26, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:32
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:Hyphz, I will gladly run a game of AW for you and some other people in this thread over Discord (preferably with voice chat but whatevs) to show you how it goes. Western US and I'm totally down for whatever
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:34
|
|
|
Warthur posted:Potentially, yes. Especially if we're talking Spire or Blades. Pacific Time checking in on this action.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:35
|
|
|
PinheadSlim posted:Yeah I assumed this was a long time close knit group of irl friends and Hyphz just didn't want to switch to online gaming No, it's a group of IRL friends and they don't want to switch to online board gaming for.. some reason?.. but are playing over Roll20. Which is why I've been trying to JavaScript up a way to make PF2 over Roll20 somewhat more bearable.. What time zone are you, Xiahou? I should mention mind you that I have played a PbtA before - Angrymog was kind enough to run MitW for me - and I actually enjoyed it a lot. But while it gave me an idea of how things work better, I was deliberately trying to make sure everything was good, and seeing someone else being creative doesn't tell me how to be creative.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:41
|
|
|
hyphz posted:No, it's a group of IRL friends and they don't want to switch to online board gaming for.. some reason?.. but are playing over Roll20. Which is why I've been trying to JavaScript up a way to make PF2 over Roll20 somewhat more bearable.. You just kinda have to learn how to be creative as you go and sort of, build up. It's not really something that can be taught in the sense of like... no one can tell you how to have good ideas, but it's possible to put you in situations where the amount of creative imput you have is slowly ramped up from various questions and the like that you sort of start to get the idea?
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:44
|
|
|
I'd love a shot at Spire. e: est Leraika fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Apr 26, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:44
|
|
|
hyphz posted:and many are showing signs of depression, as few had their lives go the way they were supposed to. That's not an excuse to take it out on you or your games. If your players show up for a game, ignore you until you cancel it, and tell you the game you wanted to run is poo poo anyway, they're assholes and you can do better.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:44
|
|
|
Pacific time and I'd be down.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:48
|
|
|
I never played Apocalypse World, Blades or Spire, but I'd love to try my hand if newbies are welcome. Eastern Standard Time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:51
|
|
|
hyphz posted:
Eastern Time, so probably 5-6 hours after you but I'd have the double check cause different countries do daylight savings differently if at all. But I play with Germans on the reg so it shouldn't be difficult. Elector_Nerdlingen posted:I really want to see how that plays out but our time zones are 12ish hours apart so I can't see it working. I've done the 12 hour time difference before so I can acknowledge it can be difficult but it's not insurmountable and you'd certainly be welcome. If hyphz is down I'll get down to scheduling brass tacks and then the first like 4-5 or whatever people are invited. I love the very bones out of Blades, but the initial setting up stuff works so much better in person so I might vaguely steer away from it, but that's super not critical and we can work it out.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:52
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:I love the very bones out of Blades, but the initial setting up stuff works so much better in person so I might vaguely steer away from it, but that's super not critical and we can work it out. Session Zero might work on voice comms. And, scary thought, maybe run Spire like Blades ?
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:56
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:Hyphz, I will gladly run a game of AW for you and some other people in this thread over Discord (preferably with voice chat but whatevs) to show you how it goes. I'd be interested in Apocalypse World if you decide to run that, I'm in Eastern US time as well.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 02:57
|
|
|
mllaneza posted:Session Zero might work on voice comms. O I'm totally with you but for didactic purposes I'd want to keep session zero elements as minimal as possible for purpose of being an example. Not that I'm opposed to it (I actually often have had multiple sessions zeros with players that are just us talking it through over beer before a long campaign), but just because it won't do the best job of showing off how the setting can be readily fleshed out during play. That's also why Spire isn't my first pick cause it has a setting baked in (that is engaging and awesome and that I love, mind!).
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 03:13
|
|
|
Ilor posted:I had a guy participate in the last two AW one-shots I've run who is 11 hours ahead of me. We played on a Friday night, which was Saturday morning for him. It worked great. Yeah I've done that before and it worked pretty well. But I'm self-isolating with a hyperactive toddler at the moment so it's not going to happen.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 03:17
|
|
|
Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Yeah I've done that before and it worked pretty well. Okay word, word. If the scheduling ain't work it ain't work, but I wanted to make sure you knew we'd try our best and that you're appreciated.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 03:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 18:24 |
|
|
Well, it’ll depend on the day, but don’t stop if I can’t make it. I don’t mind listening without playing if I can, in fact it might make it easier to ask questions if you don’t mind me doing that. Ettin posted:That's not an excuse to take it out on you or your games. If your players show up for a game, ignore you until you cancel it, and tell you the game you wanted to run is poo poo anyway, they're assholes and you can do better. It’s not an excuse but it’s how it works. I mean it’s quite clear that the strategies used by group leader types to shut down non group leader types are: a) just ignore what they are saying (super common for me); b) drag their own feet on compliance to create group entropy; c) withdraw their own infectious enthusiasm and switch to infectious laziness or sadness to bring down the mood, and cause your suggestion to be associated with that low mood; d) refer to their good historical choices, ignoring any bad ones, and if called on those bad ones pointing out that they are over now; e) imply that you are not just asking the group to do/play one thing, but to always do/play what you want; f) if any active objection is made, hold you up as a threat to the group. I have seen this in my RP group, the local war games group, multiple Discords and other chat rooms; I think it’s just how people are. So yea, it’s very kind to offer to run a game but afterwards I’ll still just be in that place again.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 03:32
|
|