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evilweasel posted:i wouldn't say moderation (at least, with respect to the governors' office) was key to virginia's flip. perhaps you'd be even better with his primary opponent. it was certainly key with a few key races needed to get the legislature flipped. The only good that has come to VA has come because of Carter and Roem, full stop. Northam is a loving barrier to improvement, not a catalyst for positive change.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:06
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Ghost Leviathan posted:So you've reached the point of literally 'Everyone who disagrees with me only does so because they're a cartoon supervillain motivated solely by malice'. not at all. i wasn't a bernie supporter and i disagree with many bernie supporters. the crux of the disagreement is generally "how best do we get there from here" rather than "should we go there" but as i acknowledged, one of the good things this year is that many of the bernie supporters are good people with good-faith disagreements (like bernie himself). what we have here is a small minority of bernie supporters, disowned by bernie and who have disowned him. plenty of good people disagree with me; some of them are even right. i have yet, however, to find someone in either group who is a fan of 4chan memes. you can always do the same "small town diner" thing about trump supporters about why they got where they are, humanizing them and how life delt them a bad hand to get them where they are today. but you also always have to keep in mind "well, then they voted for trump, and still support trump" perhaps there but for the grace of god go i - but they're there, and they're not leaving.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:08
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yronic heroism posted:“loving lib NPCs. It’s always German Mustache Man bad.” If your only criticism of Hitler was that he yelled too much then I regret to inform you that you’re fighting fascism wrong.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:08
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:I understand the trifecta is quite recent and if that's indeed the main barrier to progress it explains alot. Can't the governor do anything with executive powers or whatnot? Eitherway, from the commentors I've litsened to and from what i've gathered here in this forum there seem to be little interest in doing much of anything about that stuff. Instead they prioritize social concerns of suburbanites like tearing down confederate monuments and stuff (which is totally fine, but still). The seeming lack of interest in workers issues is kinda concerning to me Northam has made if very clear that he is against repealing right to work and forced the law allow public sector unions to delay it for a year.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:09
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joepinetree posted:It's great when it is clear that someone has no loving clue as to what they are talking about and decide to pipe in anyways. No you’re not reading the post. When was the new interpretation made? Looks to me like it was before Super Tuesday at the very least, I.e. when “Bernie’s gonna win” was not only a catchphrase but the odds on favorite.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:10
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evilweasel posted:
This whole post is wiiiild and is mostly just you feverishly ascribing motivations onto people. At best because they’ve been mislead or are deceiving themselves (!!), at worst because they’re nakedly hateful. For you the equation Biden > Trump is so obvious that the only reasons to have alternative views are rooted in ignorance or malice. Revealing! Not in a flattering way! Anyway, cool of you to build that enormous strawman then finish by saying “and I’m going to be burning the poo poo out of this from now on, so get ready for it to stink up the place” at least you warned us edit; this good post Somfin made a few pages ago resonated with me Somfin posted:You can vote Green. You can vote all downticket and ignore the presidency. You can stay home and not bother. There's way more than three options. This sort of mindset is really close to how I feel, and how I gather a lot more people feel, and it’s way more coherent than just a desire to inflict purposeless cruelty. if the Democrats cared about winning, they would be responsive to this kind of concern instead of alternatively condescending, rude, and moralistic. Most people don’t vote Republican or Democrat or Green. Most people don’t vote at all because there’s no meaningful difference to them. But by all means keep saying “of course there’s a difference, idiot! you just have to pick it out of the same poo poo-filled toilet” misadventurous fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 17:11
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Like, hi, I don't usually actually post in this thread but seriously your entire reading if VA politics is wrong. All of the moderates have just been watering down the bills leftists have been putting forward for the past year. We lost legalization to decriminalization. We lost rtw repeal, Dominion energy Monopoly breakup, public sector union striking, teacher raises, class size changes, detention center closure, amnesty for nonviolent offenders for covid fears, and SO MUCH MORE because Northam threatened to veto them or moderates killed them in committed.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:12
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:I understand the trifecta is quite recent and if that's indeed the main barrier to progress it explains alot. Can't the governor do anything with executive powers or whatnot? Eitherway, from the commentors I've litsened to and from what i've gathered here in this forum there seem to be little interest in doing much of anything about that stuff. Instead they prioritize social concerns of suburbanites like tearing down confederate monuments and stuff (which is totally fine, but still). The seeming lack of interest in workers issues is kinda concerning to me It's been a long time since i followed Virginia politics closely and I don't want to act like I'm an authority on the specifics of what the new Democratic administration is doing. To the extent that labor laws aren't changed, that's absolutely something people should be pissed about - it's just that even if they were about to change them, whatever that 50 out of 50 ranking was relying on would be referencing laws passed by Republicans that Democrats hadn't had a chance to overturn. There has been a very sizeable shift left in the state's politics, and you can assume that will get bigger in 2021 because Northram can't run for re-election and Democrats will be running on fair maps, not gerrymandered maps, so you would expect their majority to increase. There's certainly going to be things people believe should have been done but were not (I believe some gun control measures were just killed). But there has been a very large, positive change that can be built on - and one key aspect of it was an uninspiring moderate winning the governor's office in 2017 (instead of denying him votes so that the neo-confederate won instead and democrats learned their lesson!!! for 2021).
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Apr 27, 2020 17:13
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evilweasel posted:the crux of the disagreement is generally "how best do we get there from here" rather than "should we go there" We are all already aware that liberals like to believe this, but it isn't true.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:14
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Skyl3lazer posted:Like, hi, I don't usually actually post in this thread but seriously your entire reading if VA politics is wrong. All of the moderates have just been watering down the bills leftists have been putting forward for the past year. We lost legalization to decriminalization. We lost rtw repeal, Dominion energy Monopoly breakup, public sector union striking, teacher raises, class size changes, detention center closure, amnesty for nonviolent offenders for covid fears, and SO MUCH MORE because Northam threatened to veto them or moderates killed them in committed. The logic is: this is all fine, because it's happening within the same party.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:15
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readingatwork posted:If your only criticism of Hitler was that he yelled too much then I regret to inform you that you’re fighting fascism wrong. Fortunately that is not the criticism, either then or now. And people talk about Trump being a dumb shot but they also insist he must be stopped due to his agenda of dismantling democracy, hurting people, sabotaging public health, and empowering literal present-day avowed Nazis. It’s the posters adopting the Nazis literal own words from their memes who are ignoring the effects of Trump policies. And I’m sure 80 years ago they’d be comparing Roosevelt to Hitler as “just another imperialist warmonger servant of capital.” yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 17:15
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yronic heroism posted:Fortunately that is not the criticism, either then or now. And people talk about Trump being a dumb shot but they also insist he must be stopped due to his agenda of dismantling democracy, hurting people, sabotaging public health, and empowering literal present-day avowed Nazis. So why aren't they demanding a candidate who won't continue those things?
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Apr 27, 2020 17:17
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Skyl3lazer posted:Like, hi, I don't usually actually post in this thread but seriously your entire reading if VA politics is wrong. All of the moderates have just been watering down the bills leftists have been putting forward for the past year. We lost legalization to decriminalization. We lost rtw repeal, Dominion energy Monopoly breakup, public sector union striking, teacher raises, class size changes, detention center closure, amnesty for nonviolent offenders for covid fears, and SO MUCH MORE because Northam threatened to veto them or moderates killed them in committed. i'm not saying that northam was actually a secret progressive or that everyone's getting everything they should get. it's that "look how much good was already done in VA, by virtue of winning with a (hilariously so, though we only found that out later) flawed candidate" because someone specifically cited VA as something they were really optimistic about while saying "don't vote for biden and hope trump wins"
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Apr 27, 2020 17:17
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If Trump is Hitler, then that would say something really terrible about Biden's willingness to work with Republicans, repeated statements that Republicans share his values, suggestions he might appoint Republicans, etc. Theoretically if Trump and his Republican party are nazis, it would be incredibly concerning for the opposition to say they want to pass legislation that will get nazi votes or proudly declare how many of the nominee's friends are nazis. Surely others can see how endorsing and supporting the "friends with nazis" candidate as the only alternative to nazis would still end up in a fascist state, right?
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Apr 27, 2020 17:19
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yronic heroism posted:No you’re not reading the post. When was the new interpretation made? Looks to me like it was before Super Tuesday at the very least, I.e. when “Bernie’s gonna win” was not only a catchphrase but the odds on favorite. No, you dumbass. Colorado voted on Super Tuesday. They assigned the statewide delegates obviously after that. The change in interpretation only became a thing AFTER Bernie suspended his campaign, as state conventions started, as the Bernie campaign chairs make clear: https://twitter.com/RoKhanna/status/1254598129720143872 https://twitter.com/RoKhanna/status/1254621948237287430 There's a reason Bernie specifically said that he was suspending his campaign. Because the rule, which has been the same since 08, was interpreted to mean that suspending wasn't the same as withdrawing. But as state conventions start, it is clear that this year, and THIS YEAR only, they've decided to switch their interpretation that suspending=withdrawing. New Hampshire, for example, interpreted the rules the same way as before and so Pete got state wide delegates there. It is places like CO and CA that have suddenly decided to interpret it differently. EDIT: Rusty Hicks is the chair of CA DEM and you can see in that thread that he is arguing that the DNC rules mandate stripping Bernie of statewide delegates, but that is obviously a lie because Hillary got her CA at large delegates in 08. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 17:20
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Scientist Al Gore posted:If only that didn't enable someone so much worse. Joe Biden was VP when we built the loving cages He's also a rapist
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Apr 27, 2020 17:24
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Scientist Al Gore posted:Disclaimer, I don't know if I would I say I have an ideology. 
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Apr 27, 2020 17:25
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It was clear back when the earlier candidates suspended their campaigns that they would not get statewide delegates. You weren’t crying about it then. Because you don’t actually care about the fairness of the process, just about how good it is for you. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/04/bloomberg-buttigieg-klobuchar-dropouts-delegates-121442
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Apr 27, 2020 17:25
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Trabisnikof posted:If Trump is Hitler, then that would say something really terrible about Biden's willingness to work with Republicans, repeated statements that Republicans share his values, suggestions he might appoint Republicans, etc. Step two: “Bernie is the compromise candidate” when shown various clips of Bernie being friendly with Republicans, bragging about bipartisan resolutions, etc.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:28
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Trabisnikof posted:If Trump is Hitler, then that would say something really terrible about Biden's willingness to work with Republicans, repeated statements that Republicans share his values, suggestions he might appoint Republicans, etc. Apparently seeing the issue here is a sign you are not worth earning the vote of and should be silenced.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:28
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Pomp posted:Joe Biden was VP when we built the loving cages but The Deals President will do more evil things than The Compromise President or something.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:29
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yronic heroism posted:It was clear back when the earlier candidates suspended their campaigns that they would not get statewide delegates. You weren’t crying about it then. Because you don’t actually care about the fairness of the process, just about how good it is for you. You are quoting an article from after super tuesday this year. I just posted an article about how the interpretation was different in 08. You can't be this stupid. The point is that the interpretation of the rule is different between 08 and 2020, and as such pointing out that it is indeed the interpretation in 2020 is moronic.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:29
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yronic heroism posted:Step two: “Bernie is the compromise candidate” when shown various clips of Bernie being friendly with Republicans, bragging about bipartisan resolutions, etc. I'm not sure how you think this is some kind of gotcha, because he is the compromise candidate for alot of people. Being friendly with republicans is a minus, not a plus.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:30
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yronic heroism posted:Step two: “Bernie is the compromise candidate” when shown various clips of Bernie being friendly with Republicans, bragging about bipartisan resolutions, etc. P sure they're talking about Biden and Trump, noted white supremacists and rapists
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Apr 27, 2020 17:31
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Pomp posted:P sure they're talking about Biden and Trump, noted white supremacists and rapists But one of them has a "D" next to their name on the TV! Edit - And no it does not stand for "Demented"
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Apr 27, 2020 17:35
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yronic heroism posted:Step two: “Bernie is the compromise candidate” when shown various clips of Bernie being friendly with Republicans, bragging about bipartisan resolutions, etc. I ignored this own when you tried it on me because it wasn’t very good, bud, you should have taken the hint. Like yeah that’s what compromise candidate means lol
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Apr 27, 2020 17:36
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evilweasel posted:the crux of the disagreement is generally "how best do we get there from here" rather than "should we go there" We essentially have to take Pete Buttigieg on faith that when he said he supported Medicare for All in the long run, before bashing it later in the primary, that he wasn't lying the first time. Just as how I don't have to have faith in the sincerity of politicians, no one has to believe anyone else isn't being disingenuous.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:37
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Ghost Leviathan posted:So why aren't they demanding a candidate who won't continue those things? If you can’t see the difference between Republican and Democratic policies you just aren’t being honest with yourself. ColonelMuttonchops posted:I'm not sure how you think this is some kind of gotcha, because he is the compromise candidate for alot of people. Being friendly with republicans is a minus, not a plus. If we have agreed that all voting is a compromise we are merely haggling over price and can at least agree everyone should shove the absolutist rhetoric over accepting lesser evil still being evil, etc.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:37
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So stuck on Bernie they don't even realize they need to be arguing against Howie and la Riva now
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Apr 27, 2020 17:37
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Biden should be glad the left has so little respect for him, or else we'd take the advice he keeps giving us and vote for Trump! I think a lot of people here would be a lot happier if they stopped fighting against the obvious reality of the situation and stopped trying to bring the left on board with a party that actively loathes us, works harder to undermine us than they do their Cherished Colleagues to their right, and would gladly jettison every single one of us for a single forced birther pro-LGBT death camps op-ed writer, because they've spent the last 50 years getting rich as gently caress losing to and governing as Republicans. Exactly what in the gently caress has Pelosi done to impede or stonewall Trump? And Schumer's even worse! Trump is awful but it's because to be President of the biggest rogue warlord nation in the world means you have to be awful. Once you remove optics from the calculus he's maybe the third worst President of my lifetime. Maybe another 4 years will rocket him up to first place, who knows, but I do know that with Biden as a nominee he's getting the chance
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Apr 27, 2020 17:38
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Pomp posted:So stuck on Bernie they don't even realize they need to be arguing against Howie and la Riva now And possibly Jesse Ventura.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:40
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yronic heroism posted:If you can’t see the difference between Republican and Democratic policies you just aren’t being honest with yourself. Haggling over price? You think not consenting to human rights violations, the death of the planet, increasing poverty and a prison system openly designed to continue slavery of "haggling over price?" They won't even let us put healthcare on the table what the gently caress are you talking about
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Apr 27, 2020 17:42
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joepinetree posted:No, you dumbass. Colorado voted on Super Tuesday. They assigned the statewide delegates obviously after that. The change in interpretation only became a thing AFTER Bernie suspended his campaign, as state conventions started, as the Bernie campaign chairs make clear: I'm still not voting for either rapist, but I no longer hope Biden wins. The whole party can loving burn
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Apr 27, 2020 17:43
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Starting to think this democracy thing might be overrated
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Apr 27, 2020 17:43
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I didn't even mention how much of your taxes go to war mongering
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Apr 27, 2020 17:43
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Pomp posted:Haggling over price? You think not consenting to human rights violations, the death of the planet, increasing poverty and a prison system openly designed to continue slavery of "haggling over price?" Have you ever typed the phrase “Bernie is the compromise candidate”? Because that is exactly what compromise is.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:44
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yronic heroism posted:If you have ever typed the phrase “Bernie is the compromise candidate,” yes. That is exactly what compromise is. It's cool to not vote though
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Apr 27, 2020 17:44
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yronic heroism posted:If you have ever typed the phrase “Bernie is the compromise candidate,” yes. That is exactly what compromise is. It sounds like compromise has accomplished gently caress all then.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:44
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yronic heroism posted:If you have ever typed the phrase “Bernie is the compromise candidate,” yes. That is exactly what compromise is. Are you aware you are a literal fascist (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 27, 2020 17:45
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Nevvy Z posted:I'm still not voting for either rapist, but I no longer hope Biden wins. The whole party can loving burn the two biggest blue states are striking Bernie from the ballot specifically to deny him even a tiny amount of leverage at the convention that they obviously plan to box him entirely out of despite his foolish and poorly timed endorsement and subsequent campaigning. I hope more states do it, I think it's important for the party to keep showing people what they're really about and the lengths they're willing to go to prevent even the most modest reforms
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Apr 27, 2020 17:46
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