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i got owned posted:having Biden address the allegations directly might not be such a good idea. he might get flustered and say some poo poo like "yeah, so what if I did it, vote Trump if you dont like it" That's the broad sentiment from his support already though. As seen in this thread.
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Apr 27, 2020 23:15
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the extent to which the liberal strategy is based on pretending 2016 did not happen, and hoping it just goes away cannot be understated the party as it exists is constitutionally incapable of any kind of reckoning with "for every blue collar voter we lose, we'll pick up two in the Pittsburgh suburbs." because if that is not true, if that strategy failed in 2016, then they very literally have no path forward. there is no other strategic move they are capable of making, beyond signing off on the purges in the hopes that'll keep their names off the lists. any effort to move the party left will be responded to with a billionaire running a "Voting For The Muslim Means You Hate Israel" campaign, and any left-winger who sneaks in regardless will be met by party elders inciting a wave of racist hatred against them if they try to do something like put oversight in the concentration camps. and so, the orders have come down: trust that the scandal-wracked incarnation of the Old Guard who nobody -likes-, but enough people are willing to grudgingly tolerate in the name of maybe holding off a greater evil, will win your republican co-workers. proclaim the sexual assaults a creation of a bunch of lying women, the child cages what the untermenschen get for trying to pollute America with their blood, the foreign dead acceptable sacrifices to maintain America's political power, and reassure yourself that at least the American dead probably weren't any people you knew. hope, and hope with all your might, that running the furthest-right-wing candidate the Democratic Party has run in thirty years will finally be enough to get the suburban republicans who change the subject when politics comes up to stick with you. because if God is not in his heaven, and all is not, in fact, fundamentally right with the world- if there is not an amount of children they can cage and foreigners they can bomb that will get the Baileys to vote for them- then not only do they have no reason to exist as a party, they have inflicted vast amounts of suffering on the world in exchange for nothing. and because they are very smart people, who make very smart compromises, that must not be the case.
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Apr 27, 2020 23:17
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GreyjoyBastard posted:We can also, however, take some amount of strategic insight and hope from how the Tea Party lunatics were able to take over - maybe not the "have your own insane media bubble for decades until the base are gibbering cannibals and so are the candidates" component, but they successfully worked within the party to devour its innards and wear its skin. The Tea Party was largely only possible for Republicans. Partly because the Tea Party is just the apotheosis of exactly the philosophy Republicans have been publicly espousing for decades, albeit partly as a way to scam rubes. Partly because it's a philosophy that rewards risk taking; yeah this guy is an incompetent outsider con artist but what's the difference, gently caress government anyway right? The Democratic voters expect government to work and are risk averse; they're not naturally inclined to vote for outsiders, as seen this year as a popular outsider drove voters to the polls to choose the electability candidate. Not to say that we shouldn't take over party positions, because why not, but I don't expect success to come nearly as easily.
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Apr 27, 2020 23:17
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GreyjoyBastard posted:1) not everyone who posts a thing you disagree with is a lib, they might be a trot Its the illusion of power.
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Apr 27, 2020 23:20
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PerniciousKnid posted:The Tea Party was largely only possible for Republicans. Partly because the Tea Party is just the apotheosis of exactly the philosophy Republicans have been publicly espousing for decades, albeit partly as a way to scam rubes. Partly because it's a philosophy that rewards risk taking; yeah this guy is an incompetent outsider con artist but what's the difference, gently caress government anyway right? The Tea Party also had direct financial backing from several billionaires. We saw how billionaires responded to the left this cycle and they seem to be less than supportive.
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Apr 27, 2020 23:23
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spunkshui posted:Its the illusion of power. There's a lot of tension between "the DNC and state parties used their power against Bernie" (which I think we all agree on, broadly) and "the DNC and state parties don't have any power". unless i'm misreading you Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 23:26
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Wicked Them Beats posted:The Tea Party also had direct financial backing from several billionaires. We saw how billionaires responded to the left this cycle and they seem to be less than supportive. hell, not even this cycle. remember back when Haim Saban made it clear he was willing to go scorched-earth against Keith Ellison, on the grounds that losing the chair of the DNC to a lefty was worth going full-on Why Do You Support The Terrorists over
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Apr 27, 2020 23:26
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Somfin posted:The party platform is like your starting offer during negotiations, neither of you expect to actually get that, but it's theoretically your bold starting place that sets the agenda. The fact that they're not even allowing the left coalition- a quite substantial movement of quite passionate people who genuinely want things to get better- to have a voice in that platform means that they are no longer interested in even pretending to listen to the voices who want things to improve. Why do you care about the party platform? Would you believe Biden will fight for any meaningful concessions Bernie got? Would you have been willing to vote for Biden if they gave progressives more of a voice? Not a chance.
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Apr 27, 2020 23:32
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TyrantWD posted:Why do you care about the party platform? Would you believe Biden will fight for any meaningful concessions Bernie got? Would you have been willing to vote for Biden if they gave progressives more of a voice? Not a chance. No. I don't, and I wouldn't, because I won't vote for a rapist. But it would have been nice for the Democrats to at least pretend that the left still had any place in the party. As it is they're poisoning me even against moderate-centrist democratic candidates, let alone right-but-with-decorum assholes like Biden. Do you care about the party platform? If it turns out that the entirety of it is "gonna get more racist against the perfidious Chinese" would that sway you to not vote for Democrats? How bad does it need to get?
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Apr 27, 2020 23:42
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So just so I understand all this, the entire reason Biden's position in the primary when Pete and Amy dropped to endorse him is invoked is to point out that the dnc was working as hard as possible to fight Bernie and through him real positive change right? And that the disdain for the dnc right now is that they fought against a much better candidate and also spit in the eye of their constituents so that their wealthy backers would be happy, correct? Right? Right! Good. Good talk. E: oh because that's all true. I forgot to mention Rainbow Knight fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 23:46
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Epic High Five posted:Also, Biden and Dem leadership isn't even promising to do any of that good stuff, or even listen to what advocates have to say. In fact the only things he has been clear on is that he'd never in a million years pass it Yeah, but if you go to the website of Joe Biden, a known liar and plagiarist, you can read about the most progressive platform the Democratic Party has ever had.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:04
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Phone posted:Yeah, but if you go to the website of Joe Biden, a known liar and plagiarist, you can read about the most progressive platform the Democratic Party has ever had. Come on, man
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Apr 28, 2020 00:04
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evilweasel posted:it is about as comprehensive a response you could get. how would you prefer i respond to it? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 28, 2020 00:07
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Anyone who challenges you about whether or not you care about an issue should state, in writing, whether or not they care about it
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Apr 28, 2020 00:07
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Phone posted:Yeah, but if you go to the website of Joe Biden, a known liar and plagiarist, you can read about the most progressive platform the Democratic Party has ever had. Also we literally just went through this with Obama. Biden was Vice President in an administration that ran on a progressive platform and then abandoned it the moment they won. I guess I'm expected to believe that he was secretly pleading with Obama to move to the left the whole time? Lucy and the football is not a strong enough metaphor for these people.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:11
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TyrantWD posted:Remember how so many people said that Trump winning was better for the left than Hillary, because the Democratic Party would obviously move to the left, and be pushing a truly progressive agenda? the democrat party will never move to the left. the years of letting the DLC run the show have turned it in an ossified corporatist stooge. it is a dead letter
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Apr 28, 2020 00:14
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I doubt that Biden has any idea what's written on his website and it should not be used as evidence of his intent.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:14
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it cannot be stressed enough Joe Biden is where he is today because he tried to knock out Obama early in 2007 by saying "how dare this black guy think he belongs on stage with his elders and betters", and Obama figured offering him an olive branch would be a good way to show conservatives he was willing to work with them this story does not suggest that the centrist wing is just waiting for lefties to be a little nicer, in order to finally get around to adopting their proposals
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Apr 28, 2020 00:17
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Raskolnikov38 posted:the democrat party will never move to the left. the years of letting the DLC run the show have turned it in an ossified corporatist stooge. it is a dead letter You should have bought the season pass; way way cheaper.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:20
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Biden must be defeated for history to continue. Full Stop.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:29
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Apr 28, 2020 00:35
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Somfin posted:No. I don't, and I wouldn't, because I won't vote for a rapist. But why bother with pretending? They know they don't intend to live up to it, you know its all a sham and aren't going to believe it anyway, and they know that you aren't going to change your mind, so what does it matter? People are going to vote for Biden if they hate Trump enough to be willing to tolerate a Biden presidency, or if they like Biden. There is no group of progressives out there on the fence about voting for Biden, but waiting to see what the party platform looks like.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:38
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TyrantWD posted:Remember how so many people said that Trump winning was better for the left than Hillary, because the Democratic Party would obviously move to the left, and be pushing a truly progressive agenda? Are you claiming that Bernie would have had a better chance at winning the Democratic Primary if he was running against the incumbent President, Hillary Clinton? Similarly, do you believe that incumbent President Joe Biden will be an easier primary opponent than a crowded field of people nobody's ever heard of?
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Apr 28, 2020 00:48
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TyrantWD posted:But why bother with pretending? They know they don't intend to live up to it, you know its all a sham and aren't going to believe it anyway, and they know that you aren't going to change your mind, so what does it matter? People are going to vote for Biden if they hate Trump enough to be willing to tolerate a Biden presidency, or if they like Biden. There is no group of progressives out there on the fence about voting for Biden, but waiting to see what the party platform looks like. The party platform is not a way to loving win voters, it is what the party intends to do and it matters beyond the election, to quote my reply Somfin posted:it would have been nice for the Democrats to at least pretend that the left still had any place in the party This is not me pretending, it genuinely would have been nice to allow even a passing trace of a voice in the party that they at least have to stab in the back, but now they're just stabbing us in the front And there are plenty of progressives who are currently shrugging their shoulders and saying "gently caress it I guess I have to vote for the ra_ist now" who could be turned off by a sufficiently right-wing platform if the party goes masks off full fash And now the question that you're dodging Somfin posted:Do you care about the party platform? If it turns out that the entirety of it is "gonna get more racist against the perfidious Chinese" would that sway you to not vote for Democrats? How bad does it need to get?
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Apr 28, 2020 00:49
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the platform is meaningless, what matters is who holds power
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Apr 28, 2020 01:04
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Somfin posted:The party platform is not a way to loving win voters, it is what the party intends to do and it matters beyond the election, to quote my reply I assume we're talking about the New York primary garbage, yeah? Just to clarify/enunciate my current understanding: - They want to cancel the presidential primary in the state, for mostly bullshit reasons. - It's an action by the state election board, aka the Cuomo machine, aka the predominant arm of the state party but one relatively resistant to angry screaming constituents. - If they cancel the primary, the state party and/or DNC and/or convention gets to allocate delegates based on ???, they don't necessarily vanish into the aether and they almost certainly don't all get allocated to Biden, unless everyone involved is a moron, which is why I included the almost. - The DNC has issued a mealymouthed nothingstatement about this, which isn't great but isn't conclusive. - ain't no rule saying new york sanderistas can't file to run as Bidenlikers to the state and national conventions, for a "what can I, a humble New York goon, do to do my part even in the Bad Scenario"
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Apr 28, 2020 01:09
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I assume we're talking about the New York primary garbage, yeah? Absolutely and this is good poo poo, I just want to know specifically why this guy thinks it doesn't matter that there will be no left voice on the party platform And whether its contents could ever change his mind And therefore whether or not we take this as the petty, spiteful attack that it is or as some fair, honest rules following that the Biden team constantly hides their cruelty behind
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Apr 28, 2020 01:15
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Somfin posted:The party platform is not a way to loving win voters, it is what the party intends to do and it matters beyond the election, to quote my reply quote:This is not me pretending, it genuinely would have been nice to allow even a passing trace of a voice in the party that they at least have to stab in the back, but now they're just stabbing us in the front quote:And there are plenty of progressives who are currently shrugging their shoulders and saying "gently caress it I guess I have to vote for the ra_ist now" who could be turned off by a sufficiently right-wing platform if the party goes masks off full fash quote:And now the question that you're dodging I just don't get why people who are not persuadable get angry that the other side is not pretending to try and persuade you.
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Apr 28, 2020 01:15
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Raskolnikov38 posted:the platform is meaningless, what matters is who holds power https://theintercept.com/2018/11/20/medicare-for-all-healthcare-industry/ The people that hold the power seem to care about the platform.
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Apr 28, 2020 01:17
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I assume we're talking about the New York primary garbage, yeah? Okay, I admit this is  , but hear me out. New York is a very powerful state. They cancel the presidential primary. No one gets delegates. Now that the seal is broken other states will follow suit and cancel their primaries. Turns out by the convention no one has enough delegates, thus at the convention the delegates decide upon.... Cuomo.
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Apr 28, 2020 01:21
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TyrantWD posted:Saying what the party intends to do is all about trying to win voters. Ugh, this sentence by sentence poo poo is such trash. In this post you say that it's meant to win voters, then you say it doesn't matter, and then you say that I can't be persuaded anyway. You also single out anti-Trump folks. Do you think that a sufficiently vile platform can't turn them away? Voting against someone is notoriously unreliable as a voter base; they're already on shaky ground and could be convinced that they're doing good with a sufficiently lefty platform. But they won't get one now. You are entirely relying on people voting for Biden in order to vote against Trump. Why not just go full racist? What's holding you back?
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Apr 28, 2020 01:23
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Just vote for Howie Hawkins on the Green ticket, folks. We leftists don’t have anything to lose with the Democrats.
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Apr 28, 2020 01:27
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Haha nooo
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Apr 28, 2020 01:28
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spunkshui posted:https://theintercept.com/2018/11/20/medicare-for-all-healthcare-industry/ Of course they care. If their platform gets too progressive people might start actually expecting things which will be a real bad look in four years. I also suspect that the donor base doesn’t 100% trust the Democrats either and pandering too far left might spook them away. None of this changes the fact that a platform is basically just the “what we believe in” section of a company website though.
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Apr 28, 2020 01:33
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spunkshui posted:https://theintercept.com/2018/11/20/medicare-for-all-healthcare-industry/ The word seem is doing Herculean levels of work in this sentence.
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Apr 28, 2020 01:35
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A4R8 posted:Just vote for Howie Hawkins on the Green ticket, folks. We leftists don’t have anything to lose with the Democrats. What if we don't like the green party either? Can't I just write in Bernie and be happy?
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Apr 28, 2020 01:36
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readingatwork posted:Of course they care. If their platform gets too progressive people might start actually expecting things which will be a real bad look in four years. I also suspect that the donor base doesn’t 100% trust the Democrats either and pandering too far left might spook them away. I’m not gonna worry about it because a bunch of billionaires are just going to buy the votes for Biden! Thats why we didn’t want Bernie’s ridiculous pledges, remember? We just have to fix the fact that Trump was able to spend more money than Hillary in 2016. Bloomberg showed us that this is a viable path to victory!
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Apr 28, 2020 01:37
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If Biden doesn't denounce this immediately he will lose https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1254829181235539969?s=20
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Apr 28, 2020 01:39
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:What if we don't like the green party either? Can't I just write in Bernie and be happy? voting for someone on the ballot ensures your vote is counted. some states dont look at write-ins unless theres a recount
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Apr 28, 2020 01:43
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Somfin posted:Ugh, this sentence by sentence poo poo is such trash. In this post you say that it's meant to win voters, then you say it doesn't matter, and then you say that I can't be persuaded anyway. What world do you live in where progressives who weren't already willing to vote for anyone other than Trump, were persuadable by the party platform? The night of Super Tuesday, we already had a bunch of people saying they will never vote for Biden, under any circumstances. The entire point of my argument is that making concessions to the left doesn't matter (tactically). You are not winning back a single one of those staunchly anti-Biden progressives with any platform concessions. I am not even pro-Biden, just pointing out how silly it is to expect the establishment to do something that doesn't gain them anything. If Biden agreed to the GND in the platform, does that win over any Never-Bidens? No, you are going to assume he is lying, and at most will put some lame effort into something that he knows will die in committee just to say he tried, and then get back to granting fracking permits. Biden, like Hillary, is going to live and die entirely on the anti-Trump vote. He very likely does not win, and I didn't think he would win even pre-rape story. Giving Bernie more of a say in drafting the platform and rules for 2024 is not going to change that, and that is why they aren't going to try.
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Apr 28, 2020 01:49
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