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Horatius Bonar posted:The other way around it is to date a blonde California girl who speaks perfect Chinese with a fancy accent, because the look on people's faces then absolutely never gets old. How about a curly-haired redhead with freckles who speaks perfect Cantonese and really good Mandarin, who introduces herself at a staff meeting in Mandarin, and not 30 minutes later people are talking about how ugly her freckles are and that she probably dyed her hair without even trying to lower their voices. The best part was when she was picked up at the airport, talked to the school rep who picked her up (in mandarin) while their waited for the taxi, then sat in the back and listened to the school rep talk to the taxi driver (in Mandarin) about what it might be like to have sex with her.
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Apr 29, 2020 03:40
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BrigadierSensible posted:I would assume incompetence/neglect over malice. From China's POV, there was neither incompetence nor malice, because: 1. China sent out aid, which gains China face. Period. The quality of the aid does not matter, only the appearance/pageantry of giving aid. 2. China did not lose face from the poor quality of aid. Rather, the other countries lost face for such blatant ingratitude.
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Apr 29, 2020 03:45
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In Korea I always get the opposite. My Korean is OK, not great, I stumble a bit, but I can easily negotiate shops/restaurants etc. and hold a basic conversation. But when I go around, being clearly foreign in public, and speak to people in Korean I almost always get a "OMG! You are so good at Korean! You are speaking so well! You are the greatest foreigner I have ever met!!! Please marry my daughter." When all I said was, "May I please have some kimbap?" This sounds like a humblebrag, but it bothers me a little. Because I don't get these compliments when I try to expand my Korean, and try to attempt longer more complicated sentences. Or even when I can understand the most of a conversation in Korean. However when I can read, speak, and/or understand stuff like "What time is the next bus?", "I'm from Australia.", "Does this shop sell books?" etc. I get praised and fawned over.
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Apr 29, 2020 03:48
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That is the first step in fluency - "wow you're so good!" Like if a dog started talking to you, you'd be like "ho poo poo that's awesome" and that was my level of Mandarin. It's hard to get past that because then people start replying to you in the language and then you're like.... gently caress. I've made a terrible mistake. Next level is acceptance - ok, this person can speak the language. Next level is fear, someone who speaks the language better than they do. Like if someone told you they could read your mind, and then told you what you're thinking. Like what else does she know??? That was my gf and it was endlessly hilarious. I mean ok most people were good with it, but that reaction still came up enough.
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Apr 29, 2020 03:59
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BrigadierSensible posted:In Korea I always get the opposite. The better you are at the language, the less they say you're good at it. I had this happen both in Japan and Korea. I use HelloTalk and the amount of times I had this conversation: "Hello!" "안녕!" "Wow, you're so good at Korean!" "I literally only said hello." is ridiculous. Usually they say that most people can't even say hello, but that's true of only one person I know. It's also weird in that case because that app is specifically for learning a language, (though many many people use it for dating.) Ironically, they don't use Tinder for dating because apparently Tinder was marketed here as a friend-making app. Anyway, Korea is frustrating. Still way better than Japan though.
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Apr 29, 2020 04:00
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The language thing happens everywhere tho, not just in Asia. In almost any pretty homogenous country people get surprised when someone who is an obvious foreigner can speak their language. I think it'sonly Anglo countries that assume the opposite--that everyone can/should speak English. I have a Chinese-Canadian friend who got all the q's and menus when we went to restaurants together in China. She does speak some Chinese but is completely illiterate and doesn't really know anything beyond basic phrases, so it was always funny and annoying when they went to her to order over me--tho tbh in Shanghai everyone is completely unimpressed non-Asian people can speak Chinese and there are no shocked reactions whatsoever when I take over speaking. Service staff here probably just assume any non-CN speaking Asian person is Korean or Japanese or something and go on with their day. My friend can speak German very well, though, and once we went on a trip to Germany together. While there everyone handed me menus and started asking me things in German and she had to take over. Most waitstaff were all pretty taken aback the Asian woman spoke very good German.
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Apr 29, 2020 04:36
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Horatius Bonar posted:The other way around it is to date a blonde California girl who speaks perfect Chinese with a fancy accent, because the look on people's faces then absolutely never gets old. when my japanese was only marginally worse than it is now, i was dating this blonde american chick who was pretty fluent. but because i look fairly japanese, most of the native speakers would address me, and i would nod politely and give the "im listening" feedback hems and haws and then she would answer lol these days i can usually understand what's being said unless it's highly technical, but i still have the problem where when i try to respond i can't phrase anything correctly and i sound like an imbecile
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Apr 29, 2020 05:18
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Something tells me that my Japanese ain't gonna be worth poo poo until I've passed the stage of sloooooowly putting together kanji in Jisho for the sake of translating. The other guys do it so fast and I think I'm just getting too old to pick it up.
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Apr 29, 2020 05:49
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Horatius Bonar posted:To be clear, that's because the splittist rebel regime on the mainland blows. I like how they are genuinely happy. BigSexy posted:Isn’t it worse if it’s due to incompetence? Both point to massive systemic failings at every level much like how everything else this has played out. Add their Foreign Ministry engaged in victim blaming, dodging responsibility, hot nationalism, continued coverup and general gently caress you diplomacy it's malice. You can't be this continuously incompetent by chance.
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Apr 29, 2020 06:06
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The problems arise through incompetence and are perpetuated through malice
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Apr 29, 2020 06:08
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BrigadierSensible posted:I would assume incompetence/neglect over malice. Tupperwarez posted:From China's POV, there was neither incompetence nor malice, because: Was any of the defective stuff actually "aid" items sent out by China explicitly as aid? All the big cases that I think I've heard have been some shady dude in a country saying they have a line on stuff from China, which they're buying from a country, and surprise surprise it's garbage. For example Finland sourced poo poo through a tabloid celebrity with an Estonian plastic surgery business https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/agency_boss_admits_paying_out_millions_of_euros_without_getting_hospital-grade_ppe/11302278 Spain grabbed their tests from a shady unlicensed company https://www.euractiv.com/section/coronavirus/news/spain-returns-faulty-test-kits-to-china-as-covid-19-death-toll-passes-4000-mark/ Yet in the media/headlines this stuff is often framed as "China (the whole country!!) sent bad stuff [on purpose!!]" which is really quite different from idiots buying stuff from unlicensed swindlers. I dislike defending China as much as and indeed a whole lot more than other people, but the common narrative I'm seeing with this stuff seems to be a lot of bullshit.
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Apr 29, 2020 06:09
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What's really interesting is the wiiiiide wiiide range of experiences with acknowledgement towards language ability. I hear of people such as Shadow0 who have the not acknowledging speaking Japanese thing happen apparently a lot, where I lived in Japan for ~12 years and can't remember any specific instances of it happening. I'm sure it happened at some point somewhere but it was very much not something I worried about or had any issues with. I was understood immediately and without issue literally everywhere I ever went. Even when I was doing something I didn't know the specific detailed terminology for I could get by and never had issues being understood. Edit: not saying it doesn't happen to people and apparently some people really frequently, I'm just baffled as to how there's such disparity. LimburgLimbo fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Apr 29, 2020 |
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Apr 29, 2020 06:12
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Magna Kaser posted:The language thing happens everywhere tho, not just in Asia. In almost any pretty homogenous country people get surprised when someone who is an obvious foreigner can speak their language. I think it'sonly Anglo countries that assume the opposite--that everyone can/should speak English. Yeah--I'm a pretty nondescript white American dude who speaks Russian--admittedly not that great, but well above basic competency--and two things are readily apparent: a lot of places don't have places where non-native speakers are common, and, more importantly, people in those places don''t get a lot of practice listening to people with non-native accents (and Russian at least has a marked lack of diversity in accents) and imperfect grammar.
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Apr 29, 2020 06:18
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BrigadierSensible posted:I would assume incompetence/neglect over malice. this is essentially the national aid equivalent of a kid writing his presentation in 72 font and going "what is Personal Protection Equipment, or PPE? Webster's dictionary defines-"
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Apr 29, 2020 06:19
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LimburgLimbo posted:Was any of the defective stuff actually "aid" items sent out by China explicitly as aid? All the big cases that I think I've heard have been some shady dude in a country saying they have a line on stuff from China, which they're buying from a country, and surprise surprise it's garbage. If there was a photo op it's "Aid". China also did this to themselves sowing BS for decades. What would be a good recovery (For China) would be swift arrests, the government making the customer whole either by refunds or sending working product and actually following through not just say they will. loving Jack Ma is doing better than the government is. It's not just the product, it's the CCP messaging.
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Apr 29, 2020 06:38
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LimburgLimbo posted:What's really interesting is the wiiiiide wiiide range of experiences with acknowledgement towards language ability. I hear of people such as Shadow0 who have the not acknowledging speaking Japanese thing happen apparently a lot, where I lived in Japan for ~12 years and can't remember any specific instances of it happening. I'm sure it happened at some point somewhere but it was very much not something I worried about or had any issues with. I was understood immediately and without issue literally everywhere I ever went. Even when I was doing something I didn't know the specific detailed terminology for I could get by and never had issues being understood. Were you living in Tokyo? Yeah, that's the problem with anecdotal evidence for things. People are always going to have radically different experiences. Some of it is influenced by your expectations or just how you're feeling as well. For the most part though, yeah, I didn't have problems. It's just the couple of times I did that stood out so I'm left with that impression. But as others have demonstrated, it definitely does happen. A lot.
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Apr 29, 2020 06:50
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Shadow0 posted:Were you living in Tokyo? Lived in Tokyo but went everywhere, traveled all over, hitchhiked all across Honshu a number of times, talked to many many people and went to many small towns and random places. So wait it only happened a couple of times? That's quite different from what you're saying/implying.
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Apr 29, 2020 06:55
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LimburgLimbo posted:Lived in Tokyo but went everywhere, traveled all over, hitchhiked all across Honshu a number of times, talked to many many people and went to many small towns and random places. It almost never happened when I was alone, but happened quite often when I was with an Asian person who didn't speak Korean. If you're alone and speak the language, then most people's brains click into that almost immediately. When there is someone who looks like they would be more likely to speak the language next to someone who is speaking it, but doesn't "look the part" then you're more likely to get the confusion. Also I don't think that it ever happened to me with someone under the age of ~50 or so.
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Apr 29, 2020 07:07
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The surprise at speaking at all happens a lot in Poland but only if you’re darker than paper because it means you’re Properly Integrating. White people better speak perfectly right this instant
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Apr 29, 2020 07:12
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Blistex posted:It almost never happened when I was alone, but happened quite often when I was with an Asian person who didn't speak Korean. If you're alone and speak the language, then most people's brains click into that almost immediately. When there is someone who looks like they would be more likely to speak the language next to someone who is speaking it, but doesn't "look the part" then you're more likely to get the confusion. Also I don't think that it ever happened to me with someone under the age of ~50 or so. Yeah that's more likely to happen for sure, but I've also heard of a number of people who claim it happens to them alone virtually every day as well, so who knows. I think being different just breaks some peoples' brains.
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Apr 29, 2020 07:15
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I remember this from a prior incarnation of this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80
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Apr 29, 2020 07:33
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Blistex posted:Pretty sure it was 2 threads ago, and anyone who had actually tired the coffee or knew someone who did was not surprised at all by the numbers apparently being fudged. The general consensus was that even after adding enough cream and sugar that the volume had increased 100%, it was still undrinkable. 2 threads ago places us in like 2016. The recent Luckin news happened in the beginning of April of this year. Found it on page 75: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3912640&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=75
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Apr 29, 2020 07:39
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Horatius Bonar posted:
When I worked ESL, I had coworkers like that. A Scottish lady and a platinum blond lady from Alabama who were HSK6. It was funny seeing taxi drivers realize they couldn't scam them as they knew what they were saying.
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Apr 29, 2020 08:16
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LimburgLimbo posted:Lived in Tokyo but went everywhere, traveled all over, hitchhiked all across Honshu a number of times, talked to many many people and went to many small towns and random places. It only happened to me a couple of times, but I'm fine implying that it happens a lot across Japan. I think there are enough people agreeing to say that it definitely happens, and with some degree of frequency. The bizarre thing though is when you demonstrate fluency in the language, yet their minds are still blown that you can also read and write. This is especially weird in Korea, a place famous for their sensible and easy writing system. Sorry, I'm going to list off some more microagressions if that's okay. This is just me being really nitpicky, but I also get tired of explaining that no, I didn't learn [language] in the short time I was [here], I studied it before coming. It just seems really weird to me that people assume if you're reasonable at the language, you somehow picked it all up in a couple months or a year rather than the more obvious answer which is that you studied it. I just want that one person to say, "Did you study it before coming?" Also, "Can you use chopsticks???" Also also, I really wish Korean immigration gave you a name in hangeul. The number of times that a computer system has caused me issues because "Foreigners?! In my Korea?!" is innumerable. Sometimes I have a middle name, sometimes I have a middle initial, sometimes I have punctuation in my name somehow - it's a mess. Often there's a limit for characters of like 5. IIrc, when you move to Japan, they give you a katakana name to use. 
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Apr 29, 2020 08:22
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Devils Affricate posted:2 threads ago places us in like 2016. The recent Luckin news happened in the beginning of April of this year. Found it on page 75: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3912640&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=75 Not good at multitasking, and I didn't type out properly. People who tried the coffee like two years ago and heard this news are not surprised. I remember like two threads ago (maybe only one) people couldn't believe that it was a legit coffee business because they had yet to meet someone who could actually finish a cup of it.
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Apr 29, 2020 08:25
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I went into a restaurant in Taiwan for lunch one day and was browsing at the menu. The waitress started talking to me and I blew her off because, "Sorry I don't speak Chinese." She then continued, "That's fine because I'm speaking English." She was an ABC and had only recently moved to Taiwan. I felt like a total jackass, but the reality is that your brain just makes assumptions about your environment. I had 0 reason to think that a waitress in small town Taiwan spoke English since none of them had at that point and I was focused on the menu and not what she was saying. My wife and I used to get spat at when we were holding hands in Korea because everyone thought she was a Korean woman dating a foreigner. She is not Korean. They probably assumed I was a soldier because we were in Dongducheon and I kept my hair fairly short. I even had soldiers approach me asking for directions on occasion, so it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. Still rude to spit at people though. My Chinese-Canadian friend would get severely scolded on the metro in Seoul when she was out with other English teachers for the same reason.
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Apr 29, 2020 08:26
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Atlas Hugged posted:My wife and I used to get spat at when we were holding hands in Korea This may just be because Koreans really love spitting for some reason. I was at a bus stop and this one person spat every half second for at least ten minutes, alternating back and forth between two spitting sounds.
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Apr 29, 2020 08:41
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Atlas Hugged posted:My wife and I used to get spat at when we were holding hands in Korea because everyone thought she was a Korean woman dating a foreigner. She is not Korean. They probably assumed I was a soldier because we were in Dongducheon and I kept my hair fairly short. I even had soldiers approach me asking for directions on occasion, so it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. Still rude to spit at people though. I ended my years in Korea (Dongducheon Included) with 0 male Korean friends, and like 20+ women friends. My (now wife) would get poo poo from Korean men who were looking out for her virtue and she would tell them in Mandarin to leave us alone (they'd realize she was Chinese and instantly not care any more). Older Korean guys were usually pretty cool, but the 20-30 year old guys would get seriously butthurt, and even guys who I thought were my friends would "run interference" whenever they saw a Korean women paying attention to me or vice versa. The first group of guy "friends" I had in Korea would tell every Korean woman who struck up a conversation with me to leave, and it wasn't until like a month after that I discovered this, as one of the women (who spent time in Canada) told me what was up.
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Apr 29, 2020 08:42
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Shadow0 posted:This may just be because Koreans really love spitting for some reason. While this is true, it was a little bit too deliberate and aimed at our feet.
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Apr 29, 2020 08:43
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I briefly dated a Korean girl, but we had to keep it a secret from her family because they wouldn't allow it. My friend had a similar issue with his girlfriend. Her family started to suspect she had joined a cult because every other weekend, she was running off to the countryside, lol. Racism sucks and I think we should get rid of it. I just don't get the appeal. Blistex posted:I ended my years in Korea (Dongducheon Included) with 0 male Korean friends, and like 20+ women friends. I'm ending my years in Korea with 0 (new) Korean friends. I somehow even lost one I started with.  Well, friends my age at least.
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Apr 29, 2020 09:56
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it was about the bulgogi you made along the way
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Apr 29, 2020 09:59
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But it is still a Haier we miss the most.
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Apr 29, 2020 10:05
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Whilst we are talking language I have 2 gripes. 1 general, and 1 personal. 1) I am a judgemental fuckwit. And I truly judge and judge poorly expats who live in a country who can't speak the language. Just as I judge poorly expats who make no effort into learning or knowing the local culture. I have met people who have lived 5 years in Korea teaching at an Elementary school, yet do not know who Pororo is. The same kind of people I met in China who could only say Ni Hao. For fucks sake, you are going to live there, make an effort. Even if only to make your lives easier, 2)When I lived in Namhae, I knew a bloke whose Korean was better than mine, but would never speak to people. Because language was a thing to study, pore over, and then perfect. As opposed to a thing to use, and get better by making mistakes. Dude would actually get angry at me for making grammatical mistakes when talking to people, but wouldn't say a word himself. This dude also had a monster case of "Yellow Fever", and came to Korea because he was a fan of Girls Generation, and would constantly tell me how hot the 19-20 year olds, (at the time) were. He left Namhae because it was too small a town and moved to Daejon because, and I quote almost verbatim, "I can't meet any hot chicks here, in a bigger city I will have a better chance." We not surprisingly had a falling out and are no longer friends. Shadow0 posted:
I'm not Korean, but instead a middle aged Australian and I'll be leaving Korea in a month, (probably). But I'll be your friend. BrigadierSensible fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Apr 29, 2020 |
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Apr 29, 2020 10:12
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The one Chinese dude I became close friends with, we met one night very late at the 24 hr McDonald’s on the way home from the night club, we were both extremely drunk, and I think he started some kind of argument over whether Chinese dudes had big dicks or not, and I informed him that his "English name" was not in fact English, or a name, and was much closer to a particularly ugly racial slur than to any sort of word in our language. "Migga" got me a membership at his gym and we spent a whole lot of nights drinking and playing dice. He was Anhui people in guangdong and introduced me to the Anhui diaspora there who were some legit awesome people. Some of my favorite people. That circle expanded to all kinds of adventures and fun folks. Art gallery people and lowlifes and shady rich dudes and lesbians and gay night club owners and fat army dudes and 22 year old mahjong parlor owner illegitimate daughters of guys who owned big businesses somewhere. Later on he moved back to Hefei and I figured I’d go spend some time there and quickly learned all the cool people leave Anhui for Guangdong and places for a reason!
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Apr 29, 2020 10:33
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BrigadierSensible posted:Whilst we are talking language I have 2 gripes. 1 general, and 1 personal. Yeah, it's especially egregious when they are teachers. Like you want these kids to learn a foreign language and you can't even be bothered to learn the language of the country you are in??? A friend of mine couldn't even be bothered to say "yes" or "no" in Korean. It's crazy how people can be here for 3, 6, even 10 years without learning anything. It's usually the same people who spend 95% of their time at foreigner bars so I guess they don't really need it after all. quote:I'm not Korean, but instead a middle aged Australian and I'll be leaving Korea in a month, (probably). But I'll be your friend. Friendship can blossom on the battlefield!  I also (presumably) am leaving in a month. I'm trying to stay in the safety of Korea (and in proximity to my girlfriend) as long as I can, but without work, I can't extend my stay much longer without leaving. And if I try to come back, I have to pay for quarantine.
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Apr 29, 2020 10:50
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BrigadierSensible posted:Whilst we are talking language I have 2 gripes. 1 general, and 1 personal. I've been an expat long enough that I'm over this. Some people have a knack for language, some people take hours upon hours of study to make meager progress, some people have no idea if they're going to be in a country one week or five years or the rest of their lives. Learning a language is a serious commitment, requires exceptional dedication, and not everyone is at a point in their lives where they can sit down for even a single solid hour of self-study a night, let alone paying for lessons. And that's assuming the local language schools are even any good and aren't just a giant blackhole to throw a fairly tiny salary into. My wife can be in the same room as a foreigner and as if by osmosis will be speaking their language. She grew up bilingual and started learning English in elementary school and her brain is just good at picking up language in a way mine never will be. My kid is growing up trilingual and he can listen to a song in a language he doesn't speak and if he likes the song, he'll be doing a phonetically perfect imitation of the song after a listen or two. I spent years studying Chinese and even taught myself to read and write. By the time I was good at it, I was off to Thailand in a completely unexpected change of life plans. After being here five years, I've only just now started considering that I should learn more than just how to give the taxi driver directions, but I also don't really have much motivation to do so outside of impressing judgmental assholes who look down on me for having lived here awhile but barely being able to speak it. My family isn't Thai, I work in an international environment, and telling a taxi driver how to get me home has gotten me by for five years. quote:2)When I lived in Namhae, I knew a bloke whose Korean was better than mine, but would never speak to people. Because language was a thing to study, pore over, and then perfect. As opposed to a thing to use, and get better by making mistakes. Dude would actually get angry at me for making grammatical mistakes when talking to people, but wouldn't say a word himself. This dude also had a monster case of "Yellow Fever", and came to Korea because he was a fan of Girls Generation, and would constantly tell me how hot the 19-20 year olds, (at the time) were. He left Namhae because it was too small a town and moved to Daejon because, and I quote almost verbatim, "I can't meet any hot chicks here, in a bigger city I will have a better chance." We not surprisingly had a falling out and are no longer friends. This is just weird though and is basically like the reverse of the guy in Japan or Korea who has spent their entire life studying English and as soon as there's an opportunity to use it with a real life foreigner, he immediately shuts down and either forgets or pretends to forget everything. I also had a friend in Taiwan who refused to speak Mandarin once he knew I could because he wanted to keep it in his back-pocket and ambush people with it if necessary. quote:I'm not Korean, but instead a middle aged Australian and I'll be leaving Korea in a month, (probably). But I'll be your friend. Let's all be friends!
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Apr 29, 2020 10:57
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Shadow0 posted:Yeah, it's especially egregious when they are teachers. Like you want these kids to learn a foreign language and you can't even be bothered to learn the language of the country you are in??? quote:Friendship can blossom on the battlefield! quote:I also (presumably) am leaving in a month. I'm trying to stay in the safety of Korea (and in proximity to my girlfriend) as long as I can, but without work, I can't extend my stay much longer without leaving. And if I try to come back, I have to pay for quarantine. In Aus I won't have to pay for my 14 days mandatory quarantine. .... At least that 's what I have been told.
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Apr 29, 2020 10:59
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Shadow0 posted:Yeah, it's especially egregious when they are teachers. Like you want these kids to learn a foreign language and you can't even be bothered to learn the language of the country you are in??? Some people aren't really teaching English so much as just being paid clowns. There's not exactly a lot of pedagogy going on in these language academies. In that sense, they no more expect the kids to learn the language than they intend to have a career. I still don't hold the ones that are actually teachers to that standard either just because of how loving hard it is to learn a language, especially when you're working full time, planning lessons, and managing a family or social life. Learning a new language is just not something that everyone wants to do.
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Apr 29, 2020 10:59
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Atlas Hugged posted:
Yes. Yes we should.
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Apr 29, 2020 11:01
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I work with an Indian guy; we've both been in China for 3 years, but he still barely speaks a word of the language. Or goes out at all, as far as I can tell. While we're on linguistics chat: is there any deep reason behind why Chinese people are so keen on having "English names"? (and, conversely, giving foreign people Chinese names) In most other languages I'm familiar with you just accept that you'll pronounce foriegn names badly and they'll pronounce yours badly, and this seems to work without any major issues.
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Apr 29, 2020 12:32
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